New Star Venture

[CaseyJ955]

I guess those engineers of bike engines that are air cooled and use oil coolers just figured sticking an oil cooler on a bike makes it look cool ...

 

Ya, and those fins that are meant to disperse heat are nothing more than decorative extras ....

 

Oh, and how many of you are really gonna ride that many miles on your scoot? Crikey mate ... I wouldn't even put that many miles on my car!

 

And how many of you would buy a bike, any bike, that has over 200,000 miles on it and the engine has never been touched and expect to go riding off into the sunset worry free?

 

(just sayin yanno)

 

 

A good question deserves an honest answer. Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it. Triumph Triple, same again. My Triple still had all the crosshatch on each cylinder at 80k, it looked like a pretty new engine inside. Some engines are well crafted and made to last. Other engines have different priorities and purposes. An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not. I really dont see how it will be much different than many other air cooled twins on the market aside from 8 valves. It wont be terribly exciting, it wont pile on lots of miles and at a long stop light in August you will still fry. Love it or hate it, it is what it is.

[slowrollwv]

A good question deserves an honest answer. Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it. Triumph Triple, same again. My Triple still had all the crosshatch on each cylinder at 80k, it looked like a pretty new engine inside. Some engines are well crafted and made to last. Other engines have different priorities and purposes. An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not. I really dont see how it will be much different than many other air cooled twins on the market aside from 8 valves. It wont be terribly exciting, it wont pile on lots of miles and at a long stop light in August you will still fry. Love it or hate it, it is what it is.

 

8 valves isn't new they have been doing that for years. The speck sheet says 8 valves not 8 per cylinder. By the way my RSV gets pretty darn hot in stop and go traffic when the temps get 85*+.

[SilvrT]

A good question deserves an honest answer. Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it.

 

You're a minority

 

Triumph Triple, same again. My Triple still had all the crosshatch on each cylinder at 80k, it looked like a pretty new engine inside.

 

Now you're talking apples and oranges

 

 

An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not.

 

"longevity" and "performance" means different things to different people. Truth is, there are many air cooled V-twins running over 200k. What does performance mean to you?

 

at a long stop light in August you will still fry.

What's your actual experiance with this?

[XV1100SE]

... Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it. ... Some engines are well crafted and made to last. Other engines have different priorities and purposes. An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not. ... and at a long stop light in August you will still fry....

 

..."longevity" and "performance" means different things to different people. Truth is, there are many air cooled V-twins running over 200k. ...

 

...What's your actual experience with this?

 

Take two bikes priced at say $10,000. Both at 100,000 miles, one is an air cooled V-twin, the other a liquid cooled 4 cylinder, both properly maintained. Which one would you think has more life left in it? Same bike, I'd take the 4 cylinder.

 

At a stop, it only makes sense that an air cooled bike would run hotter. Cooling requires air flow. Yes a 4 cylinder can run hot but then then the fan kicks in and lowers the temperature. An air cooled will just continue to get hotter.

[BlueSky]

I guess those engineers of bike engines that are air cooled and use oil coolers just figured sticking an oil cooler on a bike makes it look cool ...

 

Ya, and those fins that are meant to disperse heat are nothing more than decorative extras ....

 

Oh, and how many of you are really gonna ride that many miles on your scoot? Crikey mate ... I wouldn't even put that many miles on my car!

 

And how many of you would buy a bike, any bike, that has over 200,000 miles on it and the engine has never been touched and expect to go riding off into the sunset worry free?

 

(just sayin yanno)

 

 

If you spend too much time sitting in stop and go traffic, an air cooled bike engine may not last one summer. An air cooled bike has limitations. If you are aware of those limitations and try to avoid those limitations, they will last a long time. When I ride my air cooled Kawasaki and I find myself sitting at a very long stop light, I turn the engine off so it won't get too hot. It starts instantly and this is not a problem with me. But we are not talking about a used $1200 bike. We are talking about an expensive latest design from Yamaha touring bike.

[CaseyJ955]

You're a minority

 

 

 

Now you're talking apples and oranges

 

 

 

 

"longevity" and "performance" means different things to different people.

 

What's your actual experiance with this?

 

Sorry, it was hard to quote this but i'll address each one.

 

Yes I'm a minority in many things vehicle related. I know that some of these bikes will surpass 200k without much trouble, I'm not actually on the market for one and would likely look for something under 100k. I bought my 1st gen with 70k on the clock and I'm not even a touch worried. Apples and Oranges, yup, thats true, but thats what we're doing here in comparing air and liquid cooling and known stout Euro bikes to air cooled twins. I will certainly agree it's apples and oranges, this would be more the point than a counter point. I'll keep my liquid cooled apples for sure. Buying a modern bike with air cooling would be a big step backwards, like buying a new Lexus with incandescent headlights and a points type distributor.

 

Longevity and Performance to me: Longevity to me means a bike that will not need rebuilding in 100k miles. It is a subjective term but I'm pretty sure anyone we ask would indicate that a bike with 175k on the clock has some longevity and a bike with blow by at 56k does not enjoy longevity. Performance is also subjective, to me it means that I can pass a row of RVs with my wife on the back and a load of our stuff in the trunk, in 105 degree weather and at 95 mph. Not sure about you but I dont spend one more moment beside a tractor/trailer than I have too. I'll spare you the description of how well my Softy (air cooled twin) went up the pass 2-up, but I can use words like "frustrating, slow, very hot, dramatic". In short Performance to me means it puts a smile on my face when I crack the throttle and will accelerate with authority fully loaded in any reasonable situation, without fuss or drama. Will maintain triple digit speeds easily. Will effortlessly blast away from tailgaters at highway speeds, 2-up and with authority. I'm not saying I would do these things but I might, and the bike needs to be up to the task if I choose to. Some bikes make me grin so hard my face hurts and others just leave me underwhelmed. Performance also means easy starts, good ridability at all RPMs and it should never feel like a sports car in Valet Mode.

 

My experience with this has been extensive exposure to air cooled narrow angle twins, mostly HD but some others. Of course experiences of those close to me as well. I have not ridden the new Yamaha so granted it could be a better design than HD, in fact I would bet on it, but it's still a very large engine with air cooling and just as water gets you wet, large air cooled twins emit copious amount of heat, especially when asked to push the weight of the Venture. It may not cook you 3 blocks from your house in the crisp morning air but your definitely going to feel it after you come off the highway fully loaded and have to sit at the offramp red light for 5 minutes in the summer heat

 

"Truth is, there are many air cooled V-twins running over 200k..." I'm sure there are a few, given ultimate conditions and very gentle riding style but this is absolutely not the norm. They are usually pretty clapped out at 100k if they even last that long. It's just as odd for an air cooled twin to give up 100k truoble free miles as it is for a V4 to not give you 100k trouble free miles.

 

I will say that to those that want the air cooled twin, more power (or not haha) to ya, enjoy! Life is full of options. I still know a few with the old twins. Its okay to ride whatever we want and also okay to debate pros and cons of engine design. I didn't mean to imply that the air cooled twin is a poor inferior design, not by any means. I really meant to just come right out and say it.

Lots of folks like these antiquated twins and I'll never know why still today but I think Yamaha is meeting market demand and a business should do that. I would be lying if I said that I didnt loose a ton of respect for Yamaha for using this obsolete tech in a new bike. I have been riding for 35 years and seen lots change in bike technology and it's been exciting. I know many of you have more than my 35 years and like different bikes for different reasons and it's all good, but the debate is nothing more than comparing notes, opinions and experiences of other folks passionate about motorcycles.

 

Please understand that this is not a personal attack and this response is with all due respect. We obviously dont agree on engine configurations but I think we can find common ground in the fact (not opinion) that motorcycling is an awesome state of mind and way of life.

[Freebird]

Originally Posted by CaseyJ955

at a long stop light in August you will still fry.

 

What's your actual experiance with this?

 

I can't answer to Casey's experience but I can tell you about my own. In 2013 I bought a brand new Harley Road Glide Ultra. I loved almost everything about that bike except for the heat. What Casey say's is my exact experience. I did everything I could to avoid getting caught in heavy traffic but sometimes it happens. It has happened on the Venture and yes, it can get uncomfortable, but on the Harley, it was almost unbearable. My inner thighs would get so hot as to actually be painful. When I was actually stopped in that traffic, I would often but trying to stand up to get away from that motor. It was much worse than being in traffic on the Venture. My wife felt it also but for her, even going down the highway was a bit uncomfortable. The heat on her right foot was so hot that she sometimes felt they were blistering. This was in spite of the fact that she was usually wearing leather boots. So all I can say is that I can honestly claim two years of personal experience and the heat was without a doubt much worse. It was bad enough that I took all the recommended steps to reduce the heat. Removed the catalytic converter, installed a Dyno Vision tuner to set it to the recommended fuel mixture, installed a more free flowing exhaust, etc. If any of those things helped at all, it was minimal.

 

Now please understand, I actually like the way that VTwins run. I love the low end torque and then gentle thump of those big pistons. I can tell you for a fact though, the heat can be an issue. Maybe Yamaha has done a better job with it in some manner or the other. That remains to be seen but I'm keeping an open mind about it.

 

 

 

[XV1100SE]

... In 2013 I bought a brand new Harley Road Glide Ultra. I loved almost everything about that bike except for the heat. ... Maybe Yamaha has done a better job with it in some manner or the other. That remains to be seen but I'm keeping an open mind about it.

 

Harley has been making motors for a long time...if they haven't figured out the heat issue it is unlikely Yamaha has.

[cowpuc]

Ask any Harley owner. I have about 800 miles of seat time on rented Harleys. I rented one in South Dakota and rode to Mt. Rushmore and surrounding areas putting over almost 300 miles on it that day. It was in the mid 90's....I got stuck in some nasty traffic in Rapid City.....sat in one spot for almost 30 minutes with the bike running. It was hot, but not unbearable. All of you guys are blowing this air cooled thing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion.

 

I am probably wayyyyy off in my recall of that rental Randy but gotta ask,,, was that a Trike? Also,, was it one of the newer HD's with the watercooled exhaust valves? Also,, did you do most of that riding 2 up?

Reason I ask is that I know from experience that there is a huge difference between the heat affect on a trike and that of a two wheeler.. On a two wheeler it is necessary to put your feet down next to the engine to support the machine at a stop = placing thighs and legs very close to that hot engine and - for those with shorter inseams - this can be a horrible experience. A short inseamed friend of mine just traded in his 2012 Ultra Limited just barely brokin in for a water cooled "Low" of the same model for the reasons we are talking = getting burned is NOT fun!!

Remember that a trike is self supporting and the need to place your legs down with no where to hide them when your stuck in traffic is completely gone - and as a matter of fact - not even possible in some cases.

Another point has to do with the passenger. Tip and I have covered a fair amount of miles on a 1st Gen. The 1st Gen is a water cooled scoot with side covers over the engine. Even on this water cooled scoot - it is still necessary to keep the side covers on to keep Tip from getting uncomfortable in the heat if we are talking temps over 90. Given,, leather boots and leather chaps would probably make life somewhat liveable without the side covers but thats now how we roll. We prefer the freedom of jeans and tennis shoes. Another point to consider,, temps above 100 are not uncommon out in the desert regions where we prefer to ride. Pavement so hot that it will actually melt your shoes and frequently does remove rubber from the rear tire and place it on the saddlebags is very common. Its not uncommon to go into that region with a brand new tire on the back and have to put another one on after a couple thousand miles - that is not uncommon..

One time while traveling out yonder my daughter and I found ourselves in Needles California at temps well above 115 - closer to 120, similar to temps Tip - Tweeks and I found in Death Valley a couple years ago. A large group of air cooled V-Twin riders were gathered at the Denny's resturant in Needles where we stopped for lunch. After eating, a couple of the air cooled guys all but begged us to spend the rest of the day there with them in the air conditioned resturant because = thier words = experience had just showed them that our motorcycles would not make it 30 minutes out in that heat and we would be roasted by engine heat even if we did make it to Vegas. They watched thru the picture window as we pulled out..

We did just fine on that water cooled 1st Gen - running 80 across that up and down paved road that runs between those two arid land towns was a blast.. The only problem we had had to do with the helmet laws out there - even if your head is being fried inside of helmet shaped oven you dare not remove it for fear of a high dollar fine.. I didnt realize how bad my daughter had gotten in having her brain roasted until I felt her fall asleep (something not uncommon back then - just not during the middle of the day = normally she was always real talkative = Daddy look at that, daddy look at this) and lean against my back. Our only reprieve was a stop at a small casino for a cool off break.. Helmet wearing should be a thing of choice IMHO..

As far as the bike melting down as the air cooled guys had warned or us getting burned up like suggested - nahhhh..

Bottom line - there are many scenarios that come into play when considering touring - especially if it involves doing it 2 up..

[BlueSky]

Those helmets black? Black appears to be the preferred color for helmets but it doesn't make sense to me.

[videoarizona]

Harley has been making motors for a long time...if they haven't figured out the heat issue it is unlikely Yamaha has.

 

Maybe not....

 

Back in the 60's and early 70's Harley was the king of racing at Daytona and over venues. They and Honda had every category sewed up.

Along comes this relatively new manufacturer, Yamaha, with its 2 cycle 250's and started to actually finish the races. Within a few years, they had out engineered Harley, Honda and the rest who laughed at 2 cycles and said there is no way you can achieve horsepower without sacrificing longevity. Back in those days, anyone running a 2 cycle would have to rebuild engine after each race...if they made it through the race to begin with. Yamaha did as well. BUT...they learned....and like I said...within a few years they not only had solved the heat problem but the scavaging problem and the spark problems with the high latency issues. The rest is history. Yamaha took the 250 and 350 classes against all 4 cycle comers and whupped them bad. They led the way for 2 cycles to come into mainstream USA as well...with well thought out manufacturing processes that enabled them to sell their bikes at a lower price point than Honda or Harley, putting them in the back seat for sales. Honda woke up first, but still stuck with 4 cycles. I remember running rings around Hondas and their ilk with my YDS6C Yamaha.

 

Our beloved V4 is another case in point. Look at the engineering in that engine. Has been able to run forever and still crank out almost 200 hp! Granted it has slightly different innards, but the point remains...it's well engineered.

 

My money is on Yamaha. I'm betting they have figured out a way to keep our legs cooler with air flow (they say they have) just as they have figured out a way to keep the motor cool by using the oil more efficiently. I haven't heard that Yamaha has a "Parade Mode" on the new Venture....so....

[cowpuc]

Maybe not....

 

Back in the 60's and early 70's Harley was the king of racing at Daytona and over venues. They and Honda had every category sewed up.

Along comes this relatively new manufacturer, Yamaha, with its 2 cycle 250's and started to actually finish the races. Within a few years, they had out engineered Harley, Honda and the rest who laughed at 2 cycles and said there is no way you can achieve horsepower without sacrificing longevity. Back in those days, anyone running a 2 cycle would have to rebuild engine after each race...if they made it through the race to begin with. Yamaha did as well. BUT...they learned....and like I said...within a few years they not only had solved the heat problem but the scavaging problem and the spark problems with the high latency issues. The rest is history. Yamaha took the 250 and 350 classes against all 4 cycle comers and whupped them bad. They led the way for 2 cycles to come into mainstream USA as well...with well thought out manufacturing processes that enabled them to sell their bikes at a lower price point than Honda or Harley, putting them in the back seat for sales. Honda woke up first, but still stuck with 4 cycles. I remember running rings around Hondas and their ilk with my YDS6C Yamaha.

 

Our beloved V4 is another case in point. Look at the engineering in that engine. Has been able to run forever and still crank out almost 200 hp! Granted it has slightly different innards, but the point remains...it's well engineered.

 

My money is on Yamaha. I'm betting they have figured out a way to keep our legs cooler with air flow (they say they have) just as they have figured out a way to keep the motor cool by using the oil more efficiently. I haven't heard that Yamaha has a "Parade Mode" on the new Venture....so....

 

TOTALLY trackin here bro - not that I am still not TOTALLY numb cause I wanted that new bike to be another V-Maxerized Venture sooooooooo badly that I went all the way to NY cause I couldnt wait to see the amaz,,,, never mind,, didnt happen,, oh well...

Anyway, INDEED Vaz - you lop eared varmint - you are on the right trail - endless possibilities there are..

IMHO - one of the things that could be done is creating an "oil jacket" around the bore of the jug - just like the jacket on a water cooled scoot. Then pump oil around it.. Do the same with the heads.. Flow the oil out to cool say inside of a well built heat sync aluminum swing arm. Dry sump that lady.. Have more than one oil pump - one just for cooling purposes just like a water pump system..

In all honesty,, I wish I would have kept my emotions in check at the unveiling = once I heard a "V-Twin" speak I really did say "Ohhhh POOP" out loud and my pea sized brain checked out as far as this new scoot went - no interest..

Wish I would of held myself in check and cornered those Mom Yam guys standing there for some REAL 1st class interviewing.. My bad,,,,,, to much passion got in the way of common sense.. Cant say it wont happen again cause I,, I got a flaw in my character about being passionate about what Mom Yam did with these V-4's BUT - I AM gonna check these new ones out even further now that I am gaining control of my Venture fantasy..

[BigLenny]

About a week ago my brother bought a very clean Stratoliner. He called me and told me about it. He did'n't really know what he was purchasing, he just liked the looks of the bike. Actually, the reason he called me was first to tell me bought it, but his second question was to ask me, since I'm a Yamaha owner, would i have any idea where the choke button or lever might be on it? He didn't even know it was fuel injected. Lol.

 

Anywho, After talking with him, I made an immediate plan to get out to his place and ride it. My reason being, of course, is because the new Venture is as we all know, supposed to have a motor that is designed from that 1900 that is in the Stratoliner. I wanted to see how the dang thing ran and throttled.

 

Well, I rode it last night, and lemme say this; if the Venture's motor is like the Stratoliner motor, there ain't gonna be an issue with needing power! Wow!. That dang thing has teeth pulling torque! It was markedly stronger than my RSTD. I repeat; there will not be an issue with loading it down to the max and having plenty of power. It was extremely quick taking off and working through the gears, and I was at 100 in a snap! And, it was very smooth. Apparently the Venture is supposed to be even smoother.

 

Having said that, the heat, and longevity issues that everybody is talking about, I do not have an opinion on. I prefer water cooled, but, who knows how this new bike will do.

 

I will say this, for what it's worth: When I rode the bike yesterday it was 94 degrees, and I didn't experience any noticeable heat coming from the engine. But, I was only on the bike for about 45 minutes.

 

Big Lenny

[snyper316]

About a week ago my brother bought a very clean Stratoliner. He called me and told me about it. He did'n't really know what he was purchasing, he just liked the looks of the bike. Actually, the reason he called me was first to tell me bought it, but his second question was to ask me, since I'm a Yamaha owner, would i have any idea where the choke button or lever might be on it? He didn't even know it was fuel injected. Lol.

 

Anywho, After talking with him, I made an immediate plan to get out to his place and ride it. My reason being, of course, is because the new Venture is as we all know, supposed to have a motor that is designed from that 1900 that is in the Stratoliner. I wanted to see how the dang thing ran and throttled.

 

Well, I rode it last night, and lemme say this; if the Venture's motor is like the Stratoliner motor, there ain't gonna be an issue with needing power! Wow!. That dang thing has teeth pulling torque! It was markedly stronger than my RSTD. I repeat; there will not be an issue with loading it down to the max and having plenty of power. It was extremely quick taking off and working through the gears, and I was at 100 in a snap! And, it was very smooth. Apparently the Venture is supposed to be even smoother.

 

Having said that, the heat, and longevity issues that everybody is talking about, I do not have an opinion on. I prefer water cooled, but, who knows how this new bike will do.

 

I will say this, for what it's worth: When I rode the bike yesterday it was 94 degrees, and I didn't experience any noticeable heat coming from the engine. But, I was only on the bike for about 45 minutes.

 

Big Lenny

45 minutes was long enuff IMHO That you would notice the heat. My venture I notice within a 25 minute ride and when I get to stoplight. My side fairings have an opening so I feel the engine heat. Altho its not that bad but I would say you should be able to tell within 45 minute what the heat will be like.

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

[rickardracing]

What I'm concerned about is the oil temperature. I don't think the typical air cooled bike engine will last 250k miles like a water cooled. As someone else pointed out when it is sitting in traffic the oil cooler doesn't help much either unless they put a fan on it.

 

 

I do not believe the vast majority of riders put this kind of mileage on their bikes. Maybe a VERY small percentage so I think that concern is unfounded.

[BlueSky]

I do not believe the vast majority of riders put this kind of mileage on their bikes. Maybe a VERY small percentage so I think that concern is unfounded.

 

 

Just don't get stuck in stop and go traffic in the summer or the engine could fail or be damaged. I don't see buying a bike with those limitations. Like I've posted before, the ineternet posted LA Sheriff's dept test of potential police bikes where they checked everything during the test including oil temperatures and made sure they met the manufacturers specs, the Harley spec was not to exceed 410 degrees F oil temperature. That is a mind numbing number to me.

[camos]

I do not believe the vast majority of riders put this kind of mileage on their bikes. Maybe a VERY small percentage so I think that concern is unfounded.

Longevity is probably not so important to Yamaha but real Ventures last for 30 years and the majority of current owners are not the original purchaser.

[mm482]

If the heads and jugs can be removed with the engine in the frame, would that just be considered normal 100,000 mile service???? LOL

 

Earl

[Sylvester]

I believe that I am done with this thread. It is much like the Republicans and Democrats in that there is no solution for either party.

Yes I have a RSMV but I have had many Harleys and Triumphs and Beesers and Hondas and Ariel Square Fours and a Mammoth.

I loved them all.

[WildBill1]

TOTALLY trackin here bro - not that I am still not TOTALLY numb cause I wanted that new bike to be another V-Maxerized Venture sooooooooo badly that I went all the way to NY cause I couldnt wait to see the amaz,,,, never mind,, didnt happen,, oh well...

Anyway, INDEED Vaz - you lop eared varmint - you are on the right trail - endless possibilities there are..

IMHO - one of the things that could be done is creating an "oil jacket" around the bore of the jug - just like the jacket on a water cooled scoot. Then pump oil around it.. Do the same with the heads.. Flow the oil out to cool say inside of a well built heat sync aluminum swing arm. Dry sump that lady.. Have more than one oil pump - one just for cooling purposes just like a water pump system..

In all honesty,, I wish I would have kept my emotions in check at the unveiling = once I heard a "V-Twin" speak I really did say "Ohhhh POOP" out loud and my pea sized brain checked out as far as this new scoot went - no interest..

Wish I would of held myself in check and cornered those Mom Yam guys standing there for some REAL 1st class interviewing.. My bad,,,,,, to much passion got in the way of common sense.. Cant say it wont happen again cause I,, I got a flaw in my character about being passionate about what Mom Yam did with these V-4's BUT - I AM gonna check these new ones out even further now that I am gaining control of my Venture fantasy..

 

The Victory engine has been oil cooled and air cooled since 99. It had that oil jacket surrounding the cylinder. Polaris dropped the wrong bike and kept that rattle trap Indian that heats ups and sounds like the lifters have been tossed in a gallon paint can.

[CaseyJ955]

I know there are a few that are "cool" with air cooling, but I thought of you right away when I read this article while cruising the news.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-southwest-temperature-idUSKBN19A32D

 

I may be getting old but I'm not thinking that sounds like fun on any bike,

[djh3]

Its all good though. Ask them people that live out there in them ovens, its a dry heat so its OK.

[Edbo]

Here is a interesting read on the new Venture you might be interested in.

 

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/2018-yamaha-star-venture-first-look-review

 

 

I thought it interesting about the engine oil cooler that is built into the frame. I wonder how well that works to keep engine heat down.

 

[Du-Rron]

Its all good though. Ask them people that live out there in them ovens, its a dry heat so its OK.

 

[djh3]

Yup I am well aware of them kind of temps. We lived in southwestern Oklahoma little place called Altus for 20 years. Summers 100+ winters in the 30-40 deg range most days. Add tornadoes to the mix and I am OK with living in central Fla. Your power bill must be outrageous trying to keep 72 in that heat.