Brenner Posted June 24, 2015 Share #1 Posted June 24, 2015 This post is not directed at anyone directly but rather a collection of my thoughts as a new rider while observing other riders and their performance on the roads. It might be a bit of a rant but it is an honest observation and for me a real eye opener. I have been riding a short time and have listened to many on the forums, in the coffee shops, at the rest stops, and at motorcycle events in order to try to pick up little tidbits of info that could possibly make me a better rider. I have been on the road with many riders or followed the same path and or even rode with and noted their skill sets and how they handle their machines. Almost everyone complains about other drivers of cars and they way other brand specific groups ride and act on our shared roads and how they know better and ride correctly. Well I am really starting to understand why motorcycles have such a bad reputation and is looked upon as a dangerous sport or hobby. All the negativity I have seen and heard and the lack of responsibility I see on the road. I hear of those who claim they had accidents and or went down due to weather conditions, or their was loose gravel on the roads, or the turn was too sharp. Do you not think you might have slowed down or considered weather conditions might factor in your ability to handle your motorcycle? I have heard people complain about cars and distracted driving but yet even today following a second gen venture I note a rider riding around a man hole cover looking down and riding right into the lane of oncoming cars but yet it's the cars fault? This same rider I observed riding 30 km/h in a 50 zone and when entering an 80 km/h zone taking off like crazy well above the speed limit until he was almost up the backside of a small car. Man this stuff is driving me nuts... I rode with a small group on the weekend to the Paris Rally and the pack leader rode well above the speed limits in small towns and slowed well below the speed limits on the stretches of highway that allowed higher speeds, it drove me nuts and when I asked why he told me he knew the areas and that the signs were posted wrong, the engineers messed up, and that I should just follow and as long as I was behind him the police would not do a thing about it. Really? What kind of mentality is this? I am finding more and more of this attitude the more I meet riders and it makes me want to ride alone and not deal with this drama and BS. I recently was in a small group and was asked to join on a local trip, the leader ended up passing cars without the group and was trying to get others to pass and when at the next intersection was screaming at cars to go around and for the bikes to follow closer. Really? I had a set to with that individual and no kidding stood up and made him ride the rear while the others carried on the trip to our destination. Another recent time I rode with a local goldwing chapter and oh my god I was so disappointed in their riding ability as I could not believe that a group who had meetings and had a strong following of a motorcycle brand or model could ride together so poorly and dangerously (not being able to ride in stagger formation, cutting off cars, not staying in their lane). My point is it seems everyone thinks they are the best, know better than everyone else, even to the point the the rules of the road does not apply to them. And if this is so are we no better than those we condemn? I am trying really hard to practice and prepare for my upcoming final riding test and it seems that I have a great examples of what not to be like but very little of good examples. So the bottom line I think is that it does not matter who you are or what you ride or drive, or what group you belong to. We all share the same roads and we should all take responsibility for our actions and think before we act rather than passing the buck or laying blame elsewhere. You will never grow as a rider a decent human being with out recognizing our own faults and making efforts to make us better at who we are and what we do. I think I need to stay away from those riders who talk the big stories or who know best as it is proving to not be in my best interest. Stress comes too easily and I do not need to invite it in. Be aware of your actions before and after, accept you make mistakes as do others, try not to condemn others for their riding preferences or styles and recognize there is no "right" way and that it may not be only "one" way. Be careful, ride safe, and make an effort to respect each other. We all only have one life...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAWildKat Posted June 24, 2015 Share #2 Posted June 24, 2015 You are so right! My husband was the new guy @ the 2011 Vogel rally riding his new to him suzuki volusia intrruder. He had barely been riding 4months and never in a group. Being the new guy considerations were made for his skill and ability and a more experienced rider was assigned to stay with us in case wr got lost on the way to deals gap nc and back to Vogel to state park. It made a realize we found the right group for us. Ride to your level of ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great White Posted June 24, 2015 Share #3 Posted June 24, 2015 Take an accredited motorcycle course, follow the rules of the road and ride within your abilities. Don't let anyone push you past that. Ride with groups at your skill level or above. Groups I ride with are all types of bikes. Cruisers, sport bikes and tourers. All depends on who shows that day and what the guy owns. We often split off into splinter groups as the road and riding demands. Limiting yourself to a group because they all ride a certain type of bike or similar reasons is (in my experience) a disaster waiting to happen. Similar skill level and riding mentality is what you want to shoot for. If the group is doing things I don't like, I'm gone. If there are individuals in our group doing things we don't like, they're gone. It's as simple as a "see you later" wave and a right turn down a side road. Sometimes it's a happy turn and you find cool things you would have missed had you not taken that turn.... That's the mantra I've always followed. Serves me well. Those guys that are being stupid? Well, you can't fix stupid and as cold as it sounds: they'll either get good, see the errors of their ways or natural selection will weed them out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted June 24, 2015 Share #4 Posted June 24, 2015 Yep, biker code numeral uno - ride your ride....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickhandle2 Posted June 24, 2015 Share #5 Posted June 24, 2015 Well said. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YamahaLarry Posted June 24, 2015 Share #6 Posted June 24, 2015 Yep, biker code numeral uno - ride your ride....... Yep, and if you ever 2nd guess as to whether it is safe to pull into an intersection, or pass a car, then don't do it. Never say yes to the 2nd guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atoolnut Posted June 24, 2015 Share #7 Posted June 24, 2015 excellent rant...i belong to canadian motorcycle cruisers and our group will let that kind of nonsense be left behind..granted you sometimes have to ride above the limits but never putting safety last ..below limit not good jack rabbit riding not good..like been said ride your own ride ..tell them to stick it and see them at the next stop.......life too short to have stress riding...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted June 24, 2015 Share #8 Posted June 24, 2015 Interesting short story () to support your perspective (I dont consider it a rant - wayyy to much truth to it Bren).. Last year I attended a run in support of a friend of mines family who had lost my buddy to his cup popping out of its cup holder and getting caught between the yoke and the tank (why I always use styrofoam cups in my cup holder.. Ride left with about 200 bikes, first stop from rally point was a bar (not good). Stood outside and yakked with a few other folks for an hour or so.. Ride captain came out, saddled up.. I had a "gut feeling" that I should call my ride at this point (riding my ride). Told the guys I was riding with that I was gonna head the other way, asked why so I told em I had just seen to many bad things happen thru life in group runs without the added effect (not judging, lord knows I have been where they were headed many many times = 3 fingers pointing back at me so to speak). After I watched em all pull out I went the other way. Later that day one of my friends that continued on the ride stopped by. Told me I had made the right choice. Said the guy who "filled my spot in the stagger formation" in front of him had taken a corner about 3/4 mile from where I had left the group. He forgot to straighten the bike up from the arch of the corner - drove off the road - hit a tree and endoed his Harley.. That back part of the group stayed with him till the ambulance got there. IMHO (and it probably aint worth the memory used here to store it on) a lot of what we are talking about in this thread has to do with pride, pride is strange stuff.. Healthy pride can induce us to do some amazing things in life,, the bad kind of pride can take everything we own - including our lives.. Sometimes I think that one of the hardest things in life is knowing which one we are dealing with when making moment by moment decisions in life even beyond this world of motorcycling that we all love so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted June 25, 2015 Share #9 Posted June 25, 2015 Brenner. Excellent post, outstanding observation, and well put. Ride your ride, make your own choices, and be safe. Along that road will be fun and adventure. I'm not trying to say that I have given up scraping a foot peg now and again. Part of why I ride a motorcycle. But, I'm kind of glad that I work Saturdays. On Sundays there are very few group runs. So I burn a tank or so of fuel on my own a lot. If you are ever going to be in the 1000 Islands / Alexandria Bay / Watertown NY area on a Sunday get hold of me. That goes for anyone here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted June 25, 2015 Share #10 Posted June 25, 2015 Yup, there are good drivers and bad drivers no matter how many wheels and how many years they have been driving. Stupid is as stupid does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djh3 Posted June 25, 2015 Share #11 Posted June 25, 2015 IMOP you have done a couple things here. One you have figured out that this is not a group you probably want to participatqe with much. Also you have reminded us all to watch for signs of poor practices. One of my peep pives about bike rallys and poker runs is somewhere along the line alchol figures in. Now dont get me wrong, I like an adult beverage as well as others. Now I dont think a fellow having a cold one @ a linch stop is terrible. But all to often its more than that. And I personally dont like the odds being stacked against US riders, regaurdless of skill set. I have not found a group where I am at that I am real comfortable riding with or want to spend days on the road. Now I will say I have not rode with any VR folks any long distances yet so that dont count. Its tuff to find a good riding buddy. Mine passed away a year ago this August from cancer. Enjoy your rides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Posted June 25, 2015 Share #12 Posted June 25, 2015 Everyone should read the Hurt Report. An ironic name for a report on motorcycle accidents, and still the only definitive one I know about. Dr Hurt, with the co-operation of the local police dept, had a scanner and his team would rush to the scene of a motorcycle accident, sometimes arriving before the police. They would study the evidence at the scene and came to some surprising conclusions. Nearly always the police wrote up the report of the accident wrong. They blamed the biker when it was usually the other way around. The evidence clearly showed the biker was not at fault. The majority of accidents happened at intersections and the median speed was 29 MPH. Car drivers were responsible for 70 percent of accidents involving motorcycles. AS for the increase in motorcycle deaths I saw another study which showed that was the result of the increase in SUV's and mini vans on the road. In an accident with a car the rider could be thrown over the roof and slide down the road. Not counting the bike usually the worst injury was to their dignity. With a SUV or mini van the rider was thrown into the vehicle and death was far more likely. I have taught both my sons how to ride and I have had friends as me to ride with them until they gain experience and confidence. I have taught them about gravel on corners, cars cutting corners, etc. I think the most important thing I taught them was to always ride within their capabilities regardless of what others were doing. I often have people point out to me some idiot on a bike who makes the news with stupid behavior. I can always point out many more reports of some idiot in a car being just as stupid. I have many stories of morons in cars who have nearly hit me due to their lack of attention. The fact is that goes with riding and there is nothing you can do except be prepared. The bottom line is you are responsible for your own safety and behavior. Drive safely and enjoy riding for many years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted June 25, 2015 Share #13 Posted June 25, 2015 Brenner...thanks for post! Dion...agreed..hard to find someone to ride with... Sailor...you got it.... Nice reminders all.... thanks, david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted June 26, 2015 Share #14 Posted June 26, 2015 Hey Brenner,, you is not so very far away,,, only in Welland eh???? you and that Dogman guy should get together and join us on a Wednesday night ride (not this week though, we is gone). HEY!!! we can show you how to group ride!!! yes sir, we love to have you join us, and when we break up and go home, you could be closer to your place than I'm to mine. We ride perfectly, do everything right. Ok enough BS. but you would be welcome to join us and find out how this group rides,,, we'd like it and so might you. If we don't like what we're doing, we change, so that we do like it. We have nothing to prove (other than the fact that the Spyder is fast!!!) but go out to enjoy the country side and sample ice-cream........ oh the lake is calling already,,, and Grand Island BBQ,,,, and then the river on the way home,,,, nice ride planned already,,, that was easy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBill1 Posted June 26, 2015 Share #15 Posted June 26, 2015 Through almost 50 years of riding the roads on two wheels various motorcycles I've learned and accepted one important thing, "Man must know his own limitations on two wheels." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dna9656 Posted June 26, 2015 Share #16 Posted June 26, 2015 This post is not directed at anyone directly but rather a collection of my thoughts as a new rider while observing other riders and their performance on the roads. It might be a bit of a rant but it is an honest observation and for me a real eye opener. I have been riding a short time and have listened to many on the forums, in the coffee shops, at the rest stops, and at motorcycle events in order to try to pick up little tidbits of info that could possibly make me a better rider. I have been on the road with many riders or followed the same path and or even rode with and noted their skill sets and how they handle their machines. Almost everyone complains about other drivers of cars and they way other brand specific groups ride and act on our shared roads and how they know better and ride correctly. Well I am really starting to understand why motorcycles have such a bad reputation and is looked upon as a dangerous sport or hobby. All the negativity I have seen and heard and the lack of responsibility I see on the road. I hear of those who claim they had accidents and or went down due to weather conditions, or their was loose gravel on the roads, or the turn was too sharp. Do you not think you might have slowed down or considered weather conditions might factor in your ability to handle your motorcycle? I have heard people complain about cars and distracted driving but yet even today following a second gen venture I note a rider riding around a man hole cover looking down and riding right into the lane of oncoming cars but yet it's the cars fault? This same rider I observed riding 30 km/h in a 50 zone and when entering an 80 km/h zone taking off like crazy well above the speed limit until he was almost up the backside of a small car. Man this stuff is driving me nuts... I rode with a small group on the weekend to the Paris Rally and the pack leader rode well above the speed limits in small towns and slowed well below the speed limits on the stretches of highway that allowed higher speeds, it drove me nuts and when I asked why he told me he knew the areas and that the signs were posted wrong, the engineers messed up, and that I should just follow and as long as I was behind him the police would not do a thing about it. Really? What kind of mentality is this? I am finding more and more of this attitude the more I meet riders and it makes me want to ride alone and not deal with this drama and BS. I recently was in a small group and was asked to join on a local trip, the leader ended up passing cars without the group and was trying to get others to pass and when at the next intersection was screaming at cars to go around and for the bikes to follow closer. Really? I had a set to with that individual and no kidding stood up and made him ride the rear while the others carried on the trip to our destination. Another recent time I rode with a local goldwing chapter and oh my god I was so disappointed in their riding ability as I could not believe that a group who had meetings and had a strong following of a motorcycle brand or model could ride together so poorly and dangerously (not being able to ride in stagger formation, cutting off cars, not staying in their lane). My point is it seems everyone thinks they are the best, know better than everyone else, even to the point the the rules of the road does not apply to them. And if this is so are we no better than those we condemn? I am trying really hard to practice and prepare for my upcoming final riding test and it seems that I have a great examples of what not to be like but very little of good examples. So the bottom line I think is that it does not matter who you are or what you ride or drive, or what group you belong to. We all share the same roads and we should all take responsibility for our actions and think before we act rather than passing the buck or laying blame elsewhere. You will never grow as a rider a decent human being with out recognizing our own faults and making efforts to make us better at who we are and what we do. I think I need to stay away from those riders who talk the big stories or who know best as it is proving to not be in my best interest. Stress comes too easily and I do not need to invite it in. Be aware of your actions before and after, accept you make mistakes as do others, try not to condemn others for their riding preferences or styles and recognize there is no "right" way and that it may not be only "one" way. Be careful, ride safe, and make an effort to respect each other. We all only have one life...... Well said!!! I haven't ridden with other riders very much, I have ridden in a Patriot Rider event when 6 Veterans' remains were taken to the local National Cemetery. I was never so worn out from riding in my life! Anyway....I have seen bad behavior in bike riders, USUALLY on those Crotch-rocket style bikes ridden by the younger set, I hate to stereotype but this is what I saw. Most of the V-Twin crowd are well behaved, those bikes don't handle so well; I know I have a Yamaha Road Star V-Twin, (for those of you that may not know it's a Harley knock off) so the potential for swerving through traffic at high speeds is reduced somewhat. I listen to 4 wheel (not 4 X 4 but cars & trucks) drivers and seldom do they complain about the 2 wheel drivers except when the crotch rocket crowd fly through traffic. What 4 wheel folks don't know is often those fast movers aren't showing off, they are staying out of the position (we 2 wheel people perceive) as in the blind spot(s) of cars and trucks. Sometimes I think this blind spot is cultural more than actual, 4 wheel people aren't looking for us; or maybe they are and we are the enemy! 2 days ago a fast mover 4 wheel car flew by me on the 2 lane limited access state highway I drive daily twice a day; 26 miles each way. Of course the traffic ahead was too thick for them to pass though so they slammed on the brakes and got into the right lane where traffic was moving faster than the left lane; then it slowed down and they were "Trapped" by other vehicles now passing in the left lane (I was now in the left lane) and they could not get out, as I passed this car the moment I was JUST even with the driver (probably in one of the dreaded blind spots) they came over into the left lane right beside me, they were going to push me off the road or knock me over at better than 60 MPH. By instinct I sped up, I really didn't see what was happening until it was in my right mirror; THEN I noticed what was happening. I was terrified. I got out of there (that's why I drive a Venture and not a V-Twin) in a hurry then slowed as there were cars in front of me. Of course our hero was right on my travel trunk. He starts flashing the bright lights at me. He had those too bright lights installed, be they LEDs or what ever the other ones are called; in any event IMHO they are too much light for the public road. So now I got his "aircraft landing lights" in my mirrors and I can't see a thing. Now I'm slowing down more and I have a few epithets and colorful metaphors on my mind. I'm thinking of the questionable parentage of this person as well. So I slow HIM down a little. So now we're down to 60 mph and this guy looks like a stock car driver swerving from lane to lane trying to get around me and everybody else. A 50 MPH zone is right ahead so what's the rush right? The state police are frequently here running the radar as this section of road is fast approaching a junction to another route. I get over to the right and this guy blasts by me. Yeah same to you too buddy! He continues to swerve from lane to lane blowing everybody off. We have a law here where I live that says you can't change lanes more than (3?) times per mile. It was enacted after the Dot Com bust in California and we had a whole LOT of California plates (cars and trucks) up here driving like Californians, (sorry to you from the Great State of California; I know all of you don't drive like this (I lived in San Fran for a year) but if the shoe fits...) flying through traffic on I-5 in and around Seattle. I-5 is very scary in a car and even more so on a bike. there are 5 and 6 lanes on parts of I-5 and many junctions. Anyway I digress. Our hero is now in a 50 MPH zone (2 lane) for the next 3 miles or so; it has 3 entrances, then it blends into one lane then another junction with vehicles coming on to the route from the right forming 2 lanes once again, a series of (50 mph) S turns, a 40 MPH long, slow left turn (3 lanes through a business district) zone of about 1/2 mile and exit on the right then the left then back to 2 lanes and returning to 60 MPH. Up a hill, then down, and he gets off at the exit at the bottom of the hill. Passing all that he can all this time. That he nearly KILLED me so he could get to his destination sooner has made NO difference to how he behaved after the near miss (he nearly got ME!) he caused. TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to what his actions could have caused. The windows on this car were darkened so I don't know what the sex of the driver was. That makes no difference anyway; bad driving is not unique to any sex. What is unique to bad driving is USUALLY the bad driver is either alone (male or female) or with HIS friends (male). Bottom line: we all better watch our asses, be good drivers, be predictable, using the turn signals well before changing lanes so everyone has a chance to see what we are about to do. Have PLENTY of great lighting on the bike so there is no using the excuse of "I didn't see the bike rider"; that way our heirs can sue the butts off our killers. But we're just a s dead, a smear on the roadway. Drive defensively and watch out for the other (4 wheels) guy. Don't be DEAD RIGHT. Anybody remember those words from their youth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmac6075 Posted June 26, 2015 Share #17 Posted June 26, 2015 Your post Brenner kind of reminds me of what my dad used to say; "There are more horses asses than there are horses!" One cannot paint with such a broad brush though when condemning any group...Black, White, Republicans, Democrats, rich, poor, Harley riders....every group is made up of individuals. A great man once said: I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarFan Posted June 26, 2015 Share #18 Posted June 26, 2015 A great man once said: I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. And these are true words of wisdom ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricksbike Posted June 27, 2015 Share #19 Posted June 27, 2015 Well Brenner,you just posted every reason I ever came up with for not riding in a group--Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted June 27, 2015 Share #20 Posted June 27, 2015 Well Brenner,you just posted every reason I ever came up with for not riding in a group--Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brenner Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share #21 Posted June 28, 2015 Thank you all for your support and invites. I have been away from my pc and out riding and returning to service my next set of wheels thus my late response. I really make an effort and go out of my way to learn to the best of my ability things that I am passionate about and as of late it has been motorcycle riding. I watch others and try to note and pick up tidbits that would benefit me and improve my riding skills and this might be the reason I see things the way I do. I only hope that I am able to become a good example that perhaps someone else will benefit from down the road. We can all learn form each other, we just need the ambition to do so. Again thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesRS2007 Posted March 3, 2017 Share #22 Posted March 3, 2017 Brenner, Thank you for the thoughtful insight into what you have observed. I have been riding off and on for over 40 years now and have considered riding with small groups etc. However I have been hesitant as I have heard stories like that you are mentioning here. I think for now I will just keep going on my independent rides and enjoying the wonderful countryside either on my own, or with my lady when she wants to come along. Stay safe, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddlebum Posted March 3, 2017 Share #23 Posted March 3, 2017 Brenner I do agree with much of what you say. There is also as much difference between groups as there is individual riders. I believe for the most part I have had the good fortune to ride mostly with groups that ride sensibly for the most part and often take beginners into consideration. Often a good group will put 1st time group riders behind the wingman as was done with me my 1st time riding in a group despite my 30 years of riding experience at the time. A good group will ride to accommodate the least experienced. Also though often the cage is oblivious of the motorcycle which results in bad endings, the rider is also often with out fault and that includes expecting the cage to watch out for us, when in reality it does not hurt for us go the extra mile and, watch out for the driver who pays little attention to the motorcycle. You are also right in the fact that there are riders who are a danger to themselves and others, most frequently the crotch rocket riders. That is not to say that even the best of us occasionally have a lapse of common sense and do something stupid or get distracted at the worst possible moment. We also often forget that we are not as visible as a larger vehicle so it is on us to try to as visible as possible. One good point to keep in mind is the truckers saying, If you cannot see me in my mirror than I cannot see you. Example we are taught what track of what lane we should ride in yet there are times we should flex from that rule of thumb for safety sake. For example in a multi lane intersection were the opposing traffic has a left turn lane I stay to the right track of my lane so that if a large vehicle is on my left he does not hide me from the view of an opposing vehicle making a left turn in front of me or from me seeing too late that there is a vehicle attempting to making a left in front of me. We always need to be extra alert on the bike and when riding in a group all our moves have to be made as a group not catch me if you can. Having said all that I do believe that the majority of the VR rides I have been on have been very well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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