Yamaha not helping with engine

[1 - UP]

Today I was called by the dealer who is fixing the engine in my bike. He told me that he had some bad news for me. The Yamaha rep told him that Yamaha is not going to stand behind fixing my bike because it had been triked and has a trailer hitch on it. The dealer told me that he is going to call the rep on Tuesday and talk to him and see if he can change his mind. It that doesn't work he will then call the rep's boss and see what he can get done. The dealer told me that I'll probable have to call Yamaha Customer Service sometime in the middle of the week and see if I can get them to do something about fixing the engine. The problem is with the piston. It has 4 marks on it that are on oppisit sides these run verticle from just under the top of the piston to the bottom. I'll try to attach a picture of the piston.

I've had Yamaha all my life. Looks like this will be my last.

Ken

[93 venture]

Did all 4 pistons look like this ?

[1 - UP]

Did all 4 pistons look like this ?

Just this one as far as I know. The dealer only showed me this one.

Ken

[Ivan]

What was the symptom?

 

To me it looks like galling, meaning that the aluminum rubbed too hard against the cylinder, pushing away any lubrication. Is the cylinder also scored up or just has a bunch of galled aluminum on it?

 

If this is the only piston that looks this way, I would say it is a mis machined piston, that got passed the QA. I have never actually machined pistons myself, but looking at them I would suspect the ring grooves are made on a different operation than the skirts. If the skirt was machined too large (out of tolerance), then the scores you see would show up.

 

Stuff like this happens on CNC machines when a tool wears down (doesn't cut as deep) breaks the tip off, or the tool is changed and the operator doesn't set the lenght properly. I would guess that a high production shop would have this mostly ironed out, but mistakes do happen.

[mini-muffin]

Just showed this to Muffinman and he says to, have the dealer either do this or get a machinist to do it, need to run a bore gauge down all 4 cylinders and make sure that the cylinder in question is true. I've seen this before on cars and the cylinder isn't straight up and down. If it turns out that they aren't square Yamaha has to eat the motor. If you need to call us muffinmans cell number is in his info.

 

Margaret

[V7Goose]

I am not an attorney, but I do know a few things. Check out the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act. This law has considerable teeth in it to prevent a manufacturer from denying a valid warranty claim. It includes provisions for the manufacturer to have to pay all legal costs of the customer if they lose.

 

In your case it sounds like they are trying to disclaim a warranty claim on your engine because of a change in an unrelated part of the bike. IMHO, unless they can substantiate how an increased load could have caused that specific type of failure, they don't have a leg to stand on. The most important thing here is probably that the burden of proof is on them, not you. Considering how much your repairs are probably going to cost, I suspect it will be worth your while to consult a lawyer.

 

I would hate to see them get away with this.

Goose

[skydoc_17]

I agree with Kent on this one, Yamaha is looking at a new motor here and they are hoping the you will just "go away". I would be making a few phone calls, over and over and over again. If you tie up a Factory Rep long enough, he will get tired of dealing with you and basically fix the problem just to get you out of his hair. Mind you, I am not saying be a d**k but becoming really "phone friendly" with the Yamaha factory boys has worked really well for me in the past. Leaning on the Dealer has also helped in the past. Let him know that if he is not going to honor the warrenty on the products he sells then you will find a Dealer that will. My dad always said, "the squeeky wheel gets the grease!" It has been true for me in the past! As a last resort a consult with a lawyer might not be a bad Idea. I think for around $50.00 or so a lawyer will send a "Letter of Intent" to Yamaha and this might shake the tree a bit. Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I personally HATE BEING RIPPED OFF!!! Don't give up!!!

Earl

[beyeker]

At the risk of stiring the pot, is this bike still under warranty? I would contact Yamaha yourself, sometimes dealers don't push to hard regardless of what they say. Don't blame Yamaha, the bike is 5 years old, I here all the time about Harley not paying for claims on bikes that are still under warranty.

[CMIKE]

In the past I have had some similuar things happen to me one recently with a Toy hauler camper, another with a cargo trailer.

I purchased a camper brand new...actually ordered it with all the options I wanted. We use this camper for Motocross racing and there is rarely power or water availible where we use this unit.

First trip with the camper, the factory installed generator did not work. Engine ran but no electricity. Keep in mind this was a brand new unit. We are 400 miles from home at a big 3 day race and it was 18 degrees outside in the middle of the night when we got there.

The Dealer where I purchased it said it was up to the manufactor to handle it. (the camper dealer was supposed to test they unit before delivery and it appeared to work at the dealer but they had the camper plugged into the A/C power so was it really working ) The camper manufactor said it was up to the folks who made the generators or the dealer for not checking it out. Finger pointing all over the place. I decided I was not gonna take it. I made phone calls and emails to everybody involved from the shop forman to customer service to the presidents of the companies involved. Finally they said they was gonna fix it but use remanufactored parts. OH no...I purchased a new unit for over $4500 and expected a new unit in my new camper. I continued hammering all involved till finally after 6 months...The camper dealer called and said they had a new generator to install in my camper. They did just that. All is well now.

 

The cargo trailer. I needed a cargo trailer to haul our motocross bike on short runs. I searched the web and found some dealers with good prices. We made the deal on the phone and they wanted a deposit to hold it till I could pick it up, no porblem. The day arrived to pick it up. I drove over 300 miles to pick up the trailer with cash in hand. Got there and the trailer I had requested was no where to be found. Why did they let drive all that way when they had no trailer like I wanted. They offered a smaller trailer if I would go to the factory and pick it up 200 more miles away for the same price. Then the did not want to give my deposit back. I was pissed. It is a good thing I did not have a shot gun cause I would have shot the ceciling out of that place. I went on a letter/email and phone call campaign. I talked to BBB, the trailer factory that supplied them with trailers...every site that had an advertisement on their website for this trailer dealer. I was gonna make sure they paid for this error. About 2 months later they called me and offered me $400 for my trouble and aske me to stop calling and emailing everyone, I was damaging their business. I accomplished what I had set out to do... They paid for my gas and time.

 

Do no let any company do you wrong. Stay on them till you get reasonable action. Do not be nasty or talk ugly to them...state the facts and be persistant. Do not give up. If the bike is still under warranty...make them repair or replace the engine.

When you talk to folks take notes who they are and their title. Ask who is the boss...call them if you do not get the results you want. Keep going up the ladder. Call again in a couple of days. Send emails to follow up conversations...email them again to get status of your problems.

 

You can make their life hell just keep after them. If they think they can get away with it...they will try to get out of it if they can. Do not go away.

Refuse to be a victim.

[davecb]

YEA, That goes for dealers who won't do their job also......."MAKEM DOIT" is my motto...

[Jethroish]

I truely home Yamaha makes thing right for you. The 5 yr warranty is part of the reason I got the venture.

Maybe some one from Yamaha follows this site and will realize the detriment of not upholding their end of the agreement.

[1 - UP]

At the risk of stiring the pot, is this bike still under warranty? I would contact Yamaha yourself, sometimes dealers don't push to hard regardless of what they say. Don't blame Yamaha, the bike is 5 years old, I here all the time about Harley not paying for claims on bikes that are still under warranty.

 

There is 2 more months to go on the warranty. The dealer called me yesterday and told me that Yamaha is not going to cover the hole thing. They will cover $1500 of a $3387 repair bill. They said the the Trike kit was the cause of the wear on the engine. Gee, I got the tirke kit in July of '08. I put 5K on it since then.

To answere another question, the engine started to make a noise that sounded like my old 55 chevy when I had a lifter starting to stick.

The dealer told me to call Yamaha's Customer Service and see if they could help me. Why does someone have to do that, why doesn't Yamaha stand behind what they say without having to almost go to court. I have had Yamaha's since '66, never had anything else.

Wonder how much a new engine cost?

Ken

[Redneck]

That piston is scored from lack of lubrication usually caused by over heating. when the cylinder temperature gets to high the oil film gets thin and allows the piston to contact the cylinder causing the scoring. If the piston clearance was incorrect it would have failed long ago. I would bet that the other pistons are scored as well. I hate to tell you this but that damage was not caused by defective parts or workmanship and yamaha is not responsible for the damage.

[mraf]

Geez Redneck your help is like no help at all. A warranty is a warranty. If this engine has had normal oil changes according to manufactures recommendations. This damage should be covered. Period. If Yamaha scoots out of fixing this then everyones warranty is moot that pulls a trailer,sidecar or trikekit. If it was a product of overheating than Yamaha is still to blame being that their engines cooling system failed to do its job adequately. If this is due from a lack of lubrication how about notifying the oil manufacturer. Maybe they could help pay if it is partly their fault.

[GunnyButch]

I have a hard time believing that a trike conversion caused these problems. Overheating likely the cause but from cooling or oil system failure.

[Carbon_One]

I have a hard time believing that a trike conversion caused these problems. Overheating likely the cause but from cooling or oil system failure.

 

Gotta agree with Gunny here since I've put over 11k on my bike since triking and have had no problems to date. I believe that since Ken has put at least 5 k on the bike since doing his trike conversion that the trike kit conversion isn't even close to the cause. Lack of cooling or lubrication has to be the problem causing this (or other) pistons failure.

Whether Yamaha will stand behind their warranty or not remains to be seen. Surely hope that they will do the right thing by Ken here thou since many of us bought these bikes partly due to such a long warranty being offered.

Larry

[mountainhorsega]

Geez Redneck your help is like no help at all. A warranty is a warranty. If this engine has had normal oil changes according to manufactures recommendations. This damage should be covered. Period. If Yamaha scoots out of fixing this then everyones warranty is moot that pulls a trailer,sidecar or trikekit. If it was a product of overheating than Yamaha is still to blame being that their engines cooling system failed to do its job adequately. If this is due from a lack of lubrication how about notifying the oil manufacturer. Maybe they could help pay if it is partly their fault.

 

Sorry about the bike - REALLY and I'm no lawyer so I may be wrong but my opinion is - If the owners manual states no trailers, and it has a trailer hitch, they do not have to cover it. I know it doesn't state no triking but it's basically the same - pulling additional load. When the trike kit was installed, it became an additional load(Probably close to the overall limit of the original bike(just guessing). I don't like it either and I would be p.o'd but a companies warranty covers their product providing it's intended purpose. Now if there was a defect in material/workmanship, that's a different story (Magnasson Moss act - just cause you changed it doesn't mean they get away with defects in material/workmanship). But just because something has a warranty doesn't mean you can overload it and expect the company to pay for what you did. If I built a trailer and stated it was rated to carry 500 lbs and something failed with 500 lbs on it - so be it. But if someone puts 800 lbs on it - they overloaded it. Tires get hotter, engines get hotter(on the bike), everything gets hotter. Just like when you pull a camper behind a truck with an auto trans - they recommend a trans cooler. It's working harder.

 

I REALLY hope you can find that it was defects in material/workmanship. Not blaming you at all - we have a GW trike too and if something goes wrong, we are in the same boat - it is pulling more and we wont get any warranty.

[93 venture]

I would have to see all four pistons before i would say the trike kit wore out the engine.If only one piston is scored that bad and the rest are fine,then yamaha is just tring to bs they way out of it.And if they do fix it will it be done right?

My old 93 has had the dog ran out of it and with 110,000 miles on it still dont use a drop of oil.

I think if it wore out from pulling to much weight there would be a lot of us in trouble.

[flb_78]

That's the problem with modifying a motorcycle. It's the same as buying a pickup, putting a 12 inch lift on it, 40" tires and then the engine or transmission going out. The dealer is not going to cover it. Dealers do not make money on warranties.

 

Once you bolt a sidecar on or trike out a bike or any other major modifications, the warranty is pretty much out the window.

[Venturous Randy]

I think if it wore out from pulling to much weight there would be a lot of us in trouble.

 

Yep, I have to second that!

RandyA

[autopilot]

If you're gonna play hardball, get your ducks in a row....get more info.

 

? antifreeze and oil levels were appropriate (particularly at the time the problem cropped up) and changed at the proper intervals with Yamaha recommended fluids (or equivalents)?

 

1. Confirm one or all pistons show this kind of wear. Check ALL of them! and check for corresponding cylinder-bore wear.

2. Do the bore-check Muffin-man suggests.

3. Confirm that the cooling fan is turning on and that the thermostat is functioning properly.

 

You'll need the info above when the negotiating gets going in earnest.

 

 

4. (Based on your Chevy comparison and the nature of the wear as best I can tell [need a little better focus in the pic], confrm the proper output pressure and flow from the oil pump. and have your dealer guy look for additional evidence of oil starvation in other places. Also have him swab the oil sump or similar place (if he didn't retain the drained oil) to check for metal shavings. If I were a betting man I would bet the oil pump is on its way south! You might also confirm that there was no fuel overflowing into the affect cylinder(s) that would dilute the oil and cause the same kind of problem.

 

Of course you need to review the warranty to make certain that it doesn't contain weasel-words that let Yamaha off the hook because it's triked. I don't really see that as an issue, and I think a case could be made that they don't want to open that particular can of worms! Also, the Yamaha Rep. should be made to understand that irreperable damage to the company's image and to the good will of the touring community portion of their customer base, will be done by not standing behind their warranty. IE- the money it would ultimately cost them due to those issues, far and away exceeds the cost of making good on your motor, because "we" are watching to see what they do!!! Make sure he understands the "we" above is a "Venture" club with >6000 members.

 

Good luck in any event. That's my input FWIW

Edited February 4, 2009 by autopilot
thought of something else

[ToRide1]

Just showed this to Muffinman and he says to, have the dealer either do this or get a machinist to do it, need to run a bore gauge down all 4 cylinders and make sure that the cylinder in question is true. I've seen this before on cars and the cylinder isn't straight up and down. If it turns out that they aren't square Yamaha has to eat the motor. If you need to call us muffinmans cell number is in his info.

 

Margaret

 

I say go with their advice and take a micrometer that piston it too could be out of round. Now if it was oil starving it would show in more than one place like the crank shaft and cam. It could also be detonation but I doubt it.

[1BigDog]

Ken, you may want to check with Hannigan Trikes to see if they ever had this issue with any other conversion. If adding a trike kit causes this type of failure im sure that you arent the only one then. They just might be able to help you prove that the trike kit did not contribute to the piston failure.

Also, that trailer hitch issue is usually up to the discretion of the dealer. I had my RSV in for warranty work several times with the hitch and there was no mention of it. Legal terms require specifics. If the warranty ONLY says no trailer hitches but does NOT say trike kits specifically then the dealer is SOL.

[Redneck]

Geez Redneck your help is like no help at all. A warranty is a warranty. If this engine has had normal oil changes according to manufactures recommendations. This damage should be covered. Period. If Yamaha scoots out of fixing this then everyones warranty is moot that pulls a trailer,sidecar or trikekit. If it was a product of overheating than Yamaha is still to blame being that their engines cooling system failed to do its job adequately. If this is due from a lack of lubrication how about notifying the oil manufacturer. Maybe they could help pay if it is partly their fault.

A warranty is a warranty and it covers defects in parts or workmanship. A warranty does not state that they will repair damages caused by missuse or abuse or lack of maintnance and that is what caused this failure. It is the operators responsibility to make sure the fluid levels are full that the fluids and filters are changed. If the cooling system has mechanical problems it is the operators responsibility to have it repaired under warranty or otherwise. the bike in question is 5 years old and I will guarantee the cooling system has internal and external bolckage and that is a maintnance issue not a product failure. Every vehicle manufacturer has in their warranty that none factory aproved modifications will void the warranty. A trike kit would fit into that catigory. I don't believe the trike kit is the cause of this problem but the extra load is a contrubuting factor. These bikes have plenty of power and durability to handle the extra load under normal conditions. I have seen hundreds of scored pistons and I have never seen one that failed because of a defective part in every case I have seen it was caused by lack of maintnance or abuse. I hate to see this happen to the owner but it is neither right or apropriate to expect yamaha to pay for it or to try to blackmail them to get them to pay for it. Yamaha provided a good dependable product that has give good service for 5 years if it was a defect in parts or workmanship it would have failed long ago. this is just my opinion.

[BoomerCPO]

Considering what the Dealers charge us for parts and labor I don't blame anyone for trying to get repairs done under Warranty. As long as the Dealer is willing to give it a shot what's the harm?

 

Has Yammi ever issued an official ruling about the Warranty concerning Ventures that have been Triked or is that already covered under "Modifications"?