Flyinfool Posted November 7, 2011 Share #1 Posted November 7, 2011 The thread on burning coal got me to thinking. By now you should all know that is dangerous. My house was built in 1886, it is a small 2 story with a 12 12 pitch roof so there is a good size attic. It is getting real close to time to replace the roof. Right now the only thing still using the chimney is the gas hot water heater in the basement. That water heater is around 25 years old so I am thinking of replacing it with a direct vent type so that nothing is using the chimney. I would like to then take down the chimney so that the new roof can cover the old chimney hole in the peak of the roof. My question is; In these old houses did they use the chimney as a structural member? Or can I just take it down and only have to do some wall and floor patching. It sure would be nice to get that space back in the kitchen and the hall where you have to turn sideways to squeeze past the chimney and it is impossible to get a box spring or anything else with a dimension of more than 20 inches into the bedroom at the end of the hall. That eliminates most dressers and beds. with the chimney gone it will be a 40 inch wide hall and room to swing the corner with even a king size box spring. Anyone ever do a chimneyectomy on an old house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufftom4 Posted November 7, 2011 Share #2 Posted November 7, 2011 What I can tell ya is when I was growing up we lived in a 200 y/o historic house and what I learned is when the chimney is on the outside for heat it usually is not structural but if it was set in the middle of the house for cooking and heat it may be structural.Do not take that as I know what I am talking about so I say research it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcoop Posted November 7, 2011 Share #3 Posted November 7, 2011 You would need to expose the floor joists to see if the chimney is load bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOO Posted November 7, 2011 Share #4 Posted November 7, 2011 I doubt that it is structural. I think we have been framing houses the same way about for ever. To be just double sure I would ask a carpenter friend of mine to take a look at the framing from inside the attic. Another choice is to call the local Building Inspector and have him take a look at it. Changes are the framing is not up to todays standards in any case but as long as you have the existing layers of shingles removed you should be fine. Good Luck, BOO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagleeye Posted November 7, 2011 Share #5 Posted November 7, 2011 I'm not a structual engineer, but I'll tell you that the house next door to me is a smaller two story and he took the chimney down for the exact reason you are talking about as did the guy across the street. They are both still standing. and they were both in the middle of the house. Mine is also, but not in the way of anything. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etcswjoe Posted November 7, 2011 Share #6 Posted November 7, 2011 I grew up in a civil war era house and when we removed one chimney it was fine when we removed the big one it caused the second story floor to warp. Remove the flooring check it out, with a house this old you really never know till you jump in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRider Posted November 7, 2011 Share #7 Posted November 7, 2011 Just let your neighbors launch some fireworks and you will get a new roof ... and a new house out of it. RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdroyer Posted November 7, 2011 Share #8 Posted November 7, 2011 Our house was built in 1890 and the fireplace chimney is not structural you should be able to look down the side of the chimney in the attic and tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playboy Posted November 7, 2011 Share #9 Posted November 7, 2011 I helped my father in law remove one years ago. Check in the attic to see if its tied into the structure specifically the ceiling joist. You stated the hot water heater was in the basement so I'm assuming the chimney goes all the way from the roof to the foundation does the brick work match from top to bottom ? A lot of old chimneys were built free standing if you have ever seen an old house that has burnt to the ground and the only thing left is the chimney you know what I mean. If the brick work matches your probably safe taking it all down or at least to the basement ceiling. Without looking at I would still have a reputable contractor or inspector look at it. looking back at your post is the hallway a load bearing wall on the first floor and is there a load bearing wall close to the chimney on the second floor ? Load bearing wall should run in the same direction as the roofs ridge line. hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted November 8, 2011 Our house was built in 1890 and the fireplace chimney is not structural you should be able to look down the side of the chimney in the attic and tell. I tried both looking up from the bottom and down from the top. No luck either way. On the second floor the Chimney makes a jog from 2 feet off the center of the basement to centered when it comes out the roof. On the second floor there are no studded walls around the chimney, it is set flush to the inside of one of the bedrooms and the plaster runs from the lath right on to the chimney bricks to make a flat wall. The other 3 sides are in the hallway and it is just plaster over the brick. my biggest concern is the floor of the second floor. there is about a 1 inch bulge in the floor all around the chimney where it looks like the house settled and the chimney did not so the floor got raised up. the ceilings on both the first and second floor are plastered right to the plaster that is on the bricks. I guess I will have to do some disassemble to see what I can find. Whether I can take the whole thing down or not, I will still drop it below the roof. Jeff; The neighbors still launch fireworks all the time, they just keep missing me and are not using military grade stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted November 8, 2011 Share #11 Posted November 8, 2011 Our chimney was straight from the basement to the roof. We removed it when the house was moved in 1990.(built in about 1920) The house hasn't fallen down yet but it's still early in the evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin-vic-b.c. Posted November 8, 2011 Share #12 Posted November 8, 2011 I do not know anything about a chimney and structure, what I do know is do not just go with a direct vent water tank... go to a direct vent tankless heater and save energy on keeping stored water hot. It is the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineventurerider Posted November 8, 2011 Share #13 Posted November 8, 2011 I tried both looking up from the bottom and down from the top. No luck either way. On the second floor the Chimney makes a jog from 2 feet off the center of the basement to centered when it comes out the roof. On the second floor there are no studded walls around the chimney, it is set flush to the inside of one of the bedrooms and the plaster runs from the lath right on to the chimney bricks to make a flat wall. The other 3 sides are in the hallway and it is just plaster over the brick. my biggest concern is the floor of the second floor. there is about a 1 inch bulge in the floor all around the chimney where it looks like the house settled and the chimney did not so the floor got raised up. the ceilings on both the first and second floor are plastered right to the plaster that is on the bricks. I guess I will have to do some disassemble to see what I can find. Whether I can take the whole thing down or not, I will still drop it below the roof. Jeff; The neighbors still launch fireworks all the time, they just keep missing me and are not using military grade stuff. I'm not an expert either but I took down the back chimney in our house we remodeled in Maine last year. It wasn't structural and I would be surprised if yours is either, but like you said, do some careful disassembly, especially on that second floor. There is probably a gap between the chimney and the floor joists to keep them from getting too hot and causing a fire. I CAN say that taking the chimney down was extremely easy, the old mortar just fell apart making the job very fast. I took down the whole chimney, from above the roofline down to the crawl space in a couple hours. The amount of space we gained, both in the upstairs bathroom and in the kitchen was unreal. This allowed us enough space to put in a nice modern kitchen downstairs and made the bathroom much more spacious. Good luck, 1/2crazed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainJoe Posted November 8, 2011 Share #14 Posted November 8, 2011 "there is about a 1 inch bulge in the floor all around the chimney where it looks like the house settled and the chimney did not so the floor got raised up. the ceilings on both the first and second floor are plastered right to the plaster that is on the bricks." My best "guess" and "thats all it is"... Is that it is non structeral. If it were, your entire floor or a large chunk of it would be sloped 1 inch. But like i said its a guess and unless you take a circular saw around the perimeter you really have no way of knowing. Just be careful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2011 Share #15 Posted November 8, 2011 Jeff, there are about equal responses both pro and con on whether its structural. Do yourself a favor and have a professional look at it. Whether its a building inspector or maybe a good chimney man, they should be able to point you in the right direction. Peace of mind is worth a few dollars for an inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddlebum Posted November 9, 2011 Share #16 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) It is very unlikely that the chimney is part of the structure, if it is a frame house. Generally if it is a set in chimney, the house is framed with a cavatie built in to brick up the chimney inside of it after the rough framing is done. As well it usually allows for a one to two inch space between the framing and the chimney. However having said this I have seen the occasional one were the chimney was used as part of the structure but almost always in house's were balloon framing instead of platform framing was used. In any case it is always wise to make sure because a lot depends on just who built the house and why they may have done what they did or if they even really knew what they were doing. Edited November 10, 2011 by saddlebum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill in mn Posted November 9, 2011 Share #17 Posted November 9, 2011 Bricks are not structural that are used for decorative work I.E. chimney. If they are tall /big enough they will have their own footing. This is why your house will settle and the chimney doesn't.They might have framed around the chimney and attached some of it to the brick. I would look at the water heater using the older chimney as an exhaust flue first. http://www.csia.org/HomeownerResources/ChimneySafetyInfo/GasAppliances/tabid/129/Default.aspx this will help show you what to look at using the chimney. I do boiler upgrade and replacements in large buildings (schools, post offices) this summer a school in St. Paul MN had a old 65 ' tall beautiful brick chimney from 1932 .a 5' ID and all lined with fire brick in a soldier course. They had used this for coal /fuel oil and natural gas .When we went to put a new make up air vent in the side of it (on the outside ) they saw cut through 20" of brick and all the mortar had deteriorated from the natural gas being funneled up it over the years.you could take your finger and push any of the fire brick lose.We were suppose to run a 20" flue up this chimney too but chose a different way after seeing that. If you keep your chimney use a steel flue for your water heater they are a great way through the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share #18 Posted November 9, 2011 It is very unlikely that the chimney is part of the structure, if it is a frame house. Generally if it is a set in chimney, the house is framed with a cavatie built in to brick up the chimney inside of it after the rough framing is done. As well it usually allows for a one to two inch space between the framing and the chimney. However having said this I have seen the occasional one were the chimney was used as part of the structure but almost always in house's were ballon framing instead of platform framing was used. In any case it is always wise to make sure because a lot depends on just who built the house and why they may have done what they did or if they even really knew what they were doing. There are so many things that are not done right in the rest of the house that there is every possibility the the chimney is a very non standard installation. From what I can see from the basement it looks like there is a 1 to 2 inch clearance between the joists and the chimney, but the floor boards run right up tight to the chimney. same thing when I look down from the attic, there is framing for clearance around the chimney but the plaster and lath run up tight to the chimney. There is no access to see what was done where the chimney goes through from the first to the second floor without tearing out floor and/or ceiling. The second floor flooring goes tight up to the chimney and the first floor plaster lath goes tight to the chimney. There is no structure around the chimney at all, it is just plaster right onto the brick and blended into the walls and ceilings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted November 9, 2011 Share #19 Posted November 9, 2011 Yah! Jeff, unless the floor joists are resting ON the brick (i.e.) the chimney is larger below the floor) then the chimney is just occupying the space and it should be OK to remove. The only time a fireplace would be load bearing is if either floor joists were using it to hold the floor up, or if the fireplace wall consisted of an entire wall and the other 3 walls were dependent on it to stay up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin-vic-b.c. Posted November 10, 2011 Share #20 Posted November 10, 2011 Yah! Jeff, unless the floor joists are resting ON the brick (i.e.) the chimney is larger below the floor) then the chimney is just occupying the space and it should be OK to remove. The only time a fireplace would be load bearing is if either floor joists were using it to hold the floor up, or if the fireplace wall consisted of an entire wall and the other 3 walls were dependent on it to stay up... I do agree with bongobobny for all I do know about construction. If you need the space it is a ton of work to take it down but it can open up a lot of space. you have so many options for new heating and hot water that it just comes down to.... how much work do you want to do to (re)gain the space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon_One Posted November 10, 2011 Share #21 Posted November 10, 2011 I took out a brick chimmeny 3 years ago that wasn't being used anymore. My house is single story built in the early 40's, but we loved gaining the extra space in the kitchen. It wasn't load bearing either. Oh ya bricks came apart very easliy too. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share #22 Posted November 10, 2011 Taking the chimney down will be the easy part. It will leave hole in the walls of 6 rooms, plus of course the floors and ceilings that it goes thru. It will need to come down in steps. First is to get it below the roof line and into the attic for the new roof. Then it will come down to a level that is just far enough below the second floors floor to do the patching of the floor, patching of 2 bedroom walls and the hallway wall and ceiling. Third step will be in another few years when I am ready to remodel the kitchen this will also leave hole in the wall of the living room, kitchen, and a bedroom plus of course the floor and ceiling. I think you guys are right, this is starting to sound like a LOT of work..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IH Truck Guy Posted November 11, 2011 Share #23 Posted November 11, 2011 Taking the chimney down will be the easy part. It will leave hole in the walls of 6 rooms, plus of course the floors and ceilings that it goes thru. It will need to come down in steps. First is to get it below the roof line and into the attic for the new roof. Then it will come down to a level that is just far enough below the second floors floor to do the patching of the floor, patching of 2 bedroom walls and the hallway wall and ceiling. Third step will be in another few years when I am ready to remodel the kitchen this will also leave hole in the wall of the living room, kitchen, and a bedroom plus of course the floor and ceiling. I think you guys are right, this is starting to sound like a LOT of work..... Hey buddy,you supply the beer and they will come.. Depending on when you want to tackle this,I will make time to help you take it down.. And if you want help doing the roof,I still have all my roofing equipment,roof toe boards and brackets.....which we would need,because your roof is not a walker... All of the inside work is the easy part....No weather to deal with... Let me know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dray Posted November 11, 2011 Share #24 Posted November 11, 2011 our last house was built in the late 1800's with addition's into the 1920's I took the chimney down one brick at a time i started on the top and worked all the way to the ground floor only thing it was hooked to was a lot of tar where it came through the roof hammer chisel and two five gal. buckets once i got it down to the inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now