What condition our condition is in....

[cowpuc]

Been thinking for some time now that things seem like they are slowing wayyy down in our industry.. The big rally out at Sturgis hasn't been "normal" with traffic backed up out on "90" waiting to get into town for a good while and it just seems like even the smaller rally's and events (like those of our own club's) have been low in attendance.. One of the things I always noticed about our Industry is how, IMHO, when the benchmark share holder = The Motor Company, is slow - it seems like the rest of the Market follows suite. As I read thru this recent report I kept wondering how the other American company, Polaris, was doing during this current down turn. An interesting being made in this article was that they (Polaris) have began discounting their inventory - something that HD trys not to do to protect the value of their product (IMHO).

Anyway,, VERY INTERESTING read if your into scoots and the industry they represent. Take a peek and speak what ya think or,, hit the Poll for a response (feel free to choose as many responses there as you think apply) or,, do both or do neither.

 

Here is the article for your reading pleasure:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/harley-davidson-is-even-worse-off-than-you-might-think/ar-AAu1iqD?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Edited October 28, 2017 by cowpuc
Forgot the link to the article!! DAHHHHHH

[bongobobny]

To quote Bob (Zimmerman) Dylan, "And the times, They Are A'Changin...

Edited October 30, 2017 by bongobobny

[BlueSky]

Preliminary data just in shows that the economy grew 3.0% at an annual rate for the 3rd quarter, second quarter in a row despite all the hurricane damage. Maybe just maybe, things will be picking up and people will have more money for toys.

[gmarshall]

Yeah, the price of new bikes is too high. But I have been able to buy used bikes with hardly any miles on them for great prices. I guess the idea of owning and riding a bike is better that the actual owning and riding it. Lots of 2 or three (or more) year old bikes with less than 6k miles on them. That's my market.

[Flyinfool]

An option missing in the choices is gas mileage.

A lot of people used to get bikes for the gas mileage to use for commuting. Now cars are cheaper and getting near the same mileage so that incentive is now gone to.

[BlueSky]

An option missing in the choices is gas mileage.

A lot of people used to get bikes for the gas mileage to use for commuting. Now cars are cheaper and getting near the same mileage so that incentive is now gone to.

 

Even way back, it was cheaper to drive some cars. The latter part of 73, I was driving 70 miles to and from work daily. My base Pinto got 29mpg. My CB750 got close to 40 or so. Even back then considering the cost of tires, it was cheaper for me to drive the Pinto. That Pinto had two options, the big engine which was a 2.0L Ford of Germay OHC 115hp engine and front disc brakes (manual). The base engine was a 1.6L pushrod Ford Cortina engine.

[SilvrT]

Don't know about wages in USA but in Canada, folks spendable income has been increasingly diminishing for several years, Wages have not kept pace with living costs and taxes have been increasing.

 

A quote from the National Post in August, 2014...

"[h=1]Canadians pay 42% of income in tax — more than they spend on food, shelter, clothing combined[/h][h=2]Since 1961, the average family’s tax bill has rose by 1,832%, dwarfing increases in the costs of housing, clothing and food, according to a Fraser Institute report"[/h]

On top of that, prices of vehicles and specifically motorcycles are ever increasing. Very few people can afford to buy a new bike nowadays so that is why there are so many financing options out there. Low interest rates, no payments for 6 months, 5-6-7 year loans, no credit/bad credit... they don't care ... heck, I've seen car ads saying "New to Canada --- no problem --- we can put you in a new car today" ... it's all about 'payments per month'.

[CaseyJ955]

It's easier for one to paw one's cellphone if one is in a car rather than on a bike. It comes down to simple convenience. I also believe that having to learn how to use a clutch is a deterrent for many younger folks.

 

I'm not sure it has much to do with cost, I know new bikes are a luxury not everyone can afford, especially in the interesting times that lay ahead of us, but CL is loaded with decent low cost bikes which might be a reflection of supply vs demand of good used machines.

 

My son has expressed an interest in riding and he's 22 now. I discouraged it because it's just too dangerous given how distracted motorists have become. It's just no longer safe. If I lived in a metro area I can safely say I would be done with bikes and this stuff courses through my veins. Risk vs reward is not playing out like it did before cellphones.

[luvmy40]

I'd like to see the sales breakdown by CC and class(touring, sport, commuter, etc.) as well as numbers on the used bike market.

 

The economy has been in a slump, wages are not keeping pace with the COL and taxes have been getting higher across the board. This definitely impacts new MC sales but probably has an inverse affect on the secondary market. I definitely see as many or more bikes on the road today as compared to the last 20 years or so.

 

The high rate of IBTW(idiot behind the wheel) incidences may cause some of the older, more health conscious riders from hitting the road as frequently as they used to but I doubt it has much to do with the new sales market slump.

 

Personally, I've never bought a new vehicle of any kind and am not likely to ever do so. The initial cost and loss to depreciation far out weighs the cost of maintenance on a used bike or car. Besides, I like wrenching almost as much as I do riding.

[baylensman]

Seeing the number of "new" bikes of a different type than ours. As well as many smaller bikes. I think that the condition of our condition is that like stage coaches and buggy whips we aren't the main stream any more.

 

When I go down the road almost every day, there is a lot of smaller bikes and bigger scoots than ever! Many folks are getting scoots to get around the "License "issue. At least here is FL you don't need an endorsement for smaller bikes (49CC) and as police have a lot of other issues, we have people with no endorsement driving 125 CC and 250 CC scoots because they look just like smaller scoots.

 

Also a lot of the smaller Crotch rocket style bikes in the 200-500 cc range being used by a lot of 30 somethings, I mean suits with a back pack kind of 30 fish guys, as daily transportation.

 

Another factor is saturation point, at best there is a small percentage of folks who will ride a bike, whether its fear or just dislike or even no interest. It may be that a high percentage of that small percentage has bikes at this point.

 

As far as the economy, I can't quote any figures but our business is subcontracting for builders of residential homes, we have doubled in the past two years and our client base informs that they have even more projects coming out of the ground here in Florida than ever before. So as housing drives the rest of the economy, i'd have to say its not slow, just transitioning again like the late 60's early 70's.

[BlueSky]

Yeah, the small scooters must be selling well because I see so many of them on the roads. My two sons never had an interest in riding a motorcycle because of safety. Perhaps they are smarter or more mature than I? One is 38 and the other is my stepson who is 26. Both like fast cars.

[Sailor]

I always drove sports cars but then the prices started climbing and I could no longer afford them. That is when I bought my first motorcycle. I have been riding for 40 years and now the cost of bikes is climbing. I can no longer afford the big bikes. I have noticed a lot of scooters on the road and a surprising number of young women riding smaller sports bikes. I don't think the sport is dead, I think its priorities are changing back towards smaller and cheaper bikes. There has long been a government/police/media bias against bikes and bikers. This is partly driven by the media and movies which always depict all bikers as villains. I am not the least bit shy about going after the media/government/police when I see them wrongly reporting incidents involving bikers. I am looking for a smaller bike now and my son wants to take over the Venture. My other son also has a bike but is too busy to get out and ride much.

[Dragonslayer]

I don't see an option for "ALL OF THE ABOVE"

[Flyinfool]

I don't see an option for "ALL OF THE ABOVE"

 

Sure there is. Just go down the line and select all of them.

[cowpuc]

I don't see an option for "ALL OF THE ABOVE"

 

Sure there is. Just go down the line and select all of them.

 

[videoarizona]

For me, the problem is more along the line of not wanting to go back into debt just to get a new bike. Nor a new truck...etc. I look at my life expectancy then look at the loan terms and shake my head. Don't want my estate (kids) dealing with that nonsense. If I was younger, I would jump on a New Venture and ride. But not now.

 

I've worked hard to get rid of house payments, credit card crap and such. Yea, we do want a MH or travel trailer, but I'm trying to do this without going into hock for more than a year or two. If I can't, then guess we will either rent or give up the idea. I want to enjoy these last years without worries....at least the financial ones!!

 

I know the other side of the coin...spend, spend, spend...who cares what happens after you are gone!

 

Guess I do.

 

Note: I'm the spender in the family...you should see my better half! Yikes!

[Dragonslayer]

Sure there is. Just go down the line and select all of them.

 

That is exactly what I did.

[Condor]

An option missing in the choices is gas mileage.

A lot of people used to get bikes for the gas mileage to use for commuting. Now cars are cheaper and getting near the same mileage so that incentive is now gone to.

 

Gotta agree Jeff. Originally the bike was a play toy, then it became a necessity, and now since people are getting used to paying today's gas prices, it's become a want again... not a need. Same things happened in the boating industry with both sail and powerboat gas guzzlers. They were an affordable leisure time activity. Then due to the gas prices the powerboats started sitting. No one could afford 2-3 mpg... Then the sailboat became the fair haired child to prolong the inevitable, and became one way folks could stay on the water. Then slip fees, maintenance, travel to and from the boat started taking their toll and in general boats became white elephants. All because folks have little expendable cash. It's all going to keep a roof over their heads.. IMHO.

[baylensman]

All because folks have little expendable cash. It's all going to keep a roof over their heads.. IMHO.

 

Actually I think folks have more expendable cash than ever! Its just that Corp America has gotten better at separating it from us. Look at $100.00 phone bills for a couple! I have friends with kids paying $400 or more. Thens there's infotainment whether its Dish or Cable again over $150 or more. Then there's internet on to of all of that another $50.00. We've been lulled into eating out more than ever, fast food is a way of life. I'm guilty as the rest One sunday she slept in so I snuck out of the house and rain to burger double got double coffee double oh's and double breakfast sandwich, so she could wake up to breakfast in bed. Well that cost me $21.00 ONE FREAKING TAKE OUT MEAL. People live on delivery pizza. try to get anything other than a single plan PIE for less than $15.00. Go out to dinner 50-70 without drinks and no dessert. I mean the slick packaging and advertising has us spending the loot quicker than we make it.

 

Friends just planned a trip to central Florida theme park, agent told to figure around $500.00 per day as a minimum budget so 2 adults 3 kids 7 days closer to $1000.00 if they wanted a "decent" time or $2000 for a "deluxe" experience. So maxing out a credit card to the tune of $6200.00 for a week with the mouse!

 

Any way the money isn't going to bikes or boats.

[BlueSky]

I went to Disney World with the 1st wife and 2 kids back in the 80's. I towed our popup camper trying to save some money. We stayed at a KOA campground about 7 miles from the resort for $23/night. Every day we drove past a sign in front of a motel advertising rooms for a family of 4 for $27/night!!! There are ways of doing stuff for less money. Staying inside the resort is not one of them. Lots of fun to stay there I'm sure but at huge cost. Going first class in everything severely limits what you can do or own. I grew up poor and I've been a cheapskate all my life. My boat is a 98. My truck is a 2002. My car is a 2005. And my motorcycles are the two old bikes in my signature. I have lots of toys because I'm cheap! I would be tempted to buy a new or newer motorcycle if there were some that suited me but they are few. The new Venture ain't it. Seems that they are almost all either the cruiser style or sport bike style and I don't like either.

[Condor]

Actually I think folks have more expendable cash than ever! Its just that Corp America has gotten better at separating it from us. Look at $100.00 phone bills for a couple! I have friends with kids paying $400 or more. Thens there's infotainment whether its Dish or Cable again over $150 or more. Then there's internet on to of all of that another $50.00. We've been lulled into eating out more than ever, fast food is a way of life. I'm guilty as the rest One sunday she slept in so I snuck out of the house and rain to burger double got double coffee double oh's and double breakfast sandwich, so she could wake up to breakfast in bed. Well that cost me $21.00 ONE FREAKING TAKE OUT MEAL. People live on delivery pizza. try to get anything other than a single plan PIE for less than $15.00. Go out to dinner 50-70 without drinks and no dessert. I mean the slick packaging and advertising has us spending the loot quicker than we make it.

 

Friends just planned a trip to central Florida theme park, agent told to figure around $500.00 per day as a minimum budget so 2 adults 3 kids 7 days closer to $1000.00 if they wanted a "decent" time or $2000 for a "deluxe" experience. So maxing out a credit card to the tune of $6200.00 for a week with the mouse!

 

Any way the money isn't going to bikes or boats.

What you said kinda proves my point. Daily living expenses are taking their tool on any leftover cash. You can complain about the prices, but wait a while and you'll think they are the good ol' days. And going into cc dept for a weeks stay anywhere is not expendable cash... Sometimes it's cheaper to eat out then eat in. Anytime you can get away with $5 bucks per person you're doing good. Two Whoppers for $6... And there isn't any preparation, energy consumed to cook, or dishes to wash. Chinese, Mexican, Italian Pizza, what else is there?? :-)

[baylensman]

What you said kinda proves my point. Daily living expenses are taking their tool on any leftover cash. You can complain about the prices, but wait a while and you'll think they are the good ol' days. And going into cc dept for a weeks stay anywhere is not expendable cash... Sometimes it's cheaper to eat out then eat in. Anytime you can get away with $5 bucks per person you're doing good. Two Whoppers for $6... And there isn't any preparation, energy consumed to cook, or dishes to wash. Chinese, Mexican, Italian Pizza, what else is there?? :-)

 

Yes there is less because we allow it. I res up in a house with 1 phone stuck to the wall, 1 TV set with 3 channels, and a shelf full of board games and another with encylopedias. As mom and dad both started to work to get the finer things CORP America found more stuff to sell us. Most families started out in apartments or bungalows and lived there through the birth the first and sometimes second kid before buying a "Starter" home, now young people are getting 100% mortgages and paying over half of their combined income to get a MCMansion.

 

Reread both our posts I think we agree there's no money left but for different reasons.

[Condor]

Yes there is less because we allow it. I res up in a house with 1 phone stuck to the wall, 1 TV set with 3 channels, and a shelf full of board games and another with encylopedias. As mom and dad both started to work to get the finer things CORP America found more stuff to sell us. Most families started out in apartments or bungalows and lived there through the birth the first and sometimes second kid before buying a "Starter" home, now young people are getting 100% mortgages and paying over half of their combined income to get a MCMansion.

 

Reread both our posts I think we agree there's no money left but for different reasons.

 

I need to know how to get the kids out of the house to begin with... They keep coming back... :-)

[baylensman]

I need to know how to get the kids out of the house to begin with... They keep coming back... :-)

[camos]

Eating out is convenient but it is not healthy. Restaurants, even the best of them, cook food to be enticing but not necessarily good for you. Fast food restaurants for the most part serve poison full of excess calories, fat and salt. I decided to cost out what I prepared yesterday. It's approximately accurate. Draw your own conclusions.

 

Eating at home might actually make a new bike affordable and you might even live long enough to wear it out.

 

Whopper (according to BK): multiply the following by 2 for $6 (as per Condor).

• [h=5]Calories[/h]660
   
  
• [h=5]Protein[/h]28g
   
  
• [h=5]Carbohydrates[/h]49g
  

• [h=5]Sugar[/h]11g
   
  
• [h=5]Fat[/h]40g
   
  
• [h=5]Saturated Fat[/h]12g
  

• [h=5]Trans Fat[/h]1.5g
   
  
• [h=5]Cholesterol[/h]90mg
   
  
• [h=5]Sodium[/h]980mg
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Home cooked meat sauce, pasta and veggies for 10 servings comes out to a total of $19.

 

Slow Cooker: $10

2 tablespoon, Oil - Olive

1.0 lb(s), Pork Loin

4 clove, Garlic, raw

1 tbsp(s), Spices, oregano, dried

1 tbsp, ground, Spices, basil, dried

1 tbsp(s), Black Pepper - Ground

28 oz(s), Kidney Beans, cooked

2 cup, Vegetable Broth

1 cup, chopped, Onions, raw

1 container (3 1/5 cup (125 ml) ea.), Diced Tomatoes

1 container (2 1/2 cup (125ml) ea.), Thick & Rich Original Tomato Sauce

 

Steamed: $6

6 medium, Carrots

12 Stalk, Celery

6 cup, Broccoli Florets

6 cup, Cauliflower Florets

 

Boiled: $3

8 cup dry, Rotini Pasta (Dry)

 

For the meat sauce:

[TABLE=class: nutrition, width: 180]

[TR]

[TH=bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2, align: left]Nutrition Facts[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]Servings 10.0[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]Amount Per Serving[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]calories 482[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: dv, colspan: 2, align: right]% Daily Value *[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Total Fat 13 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]21 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub]Saturated Fat 1 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]4 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub, colspan: 2]Monounsaturated Fat 2 g[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub, colspan: 2]Polyunsaturated Fat 0 g[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub, colspan: 2]Trans Fat 0 g[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Cholesterol 18 mg[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]6 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Sodium 653 mg[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]27 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Potassium 734 mg[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]21 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Total Carbohydrate 78 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]26 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub]Dietary Fiber 16 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]62 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub]Sugars 8 g[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Protein 30 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]60 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Vitamin A[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]9 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Vitamin C[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]22 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Calcium[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]15 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Iron[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]34 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

For the Veggies:

I made enough for 5 but the above recipe was for 10.

[TABLE=class: nutrition, width: 180]

[TR]

[TH=bgcolor: transparent, colspan: 2, align: left]Nutrition Facts[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]Servings 5.0[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]Amount Per Serving[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]calories 79[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: dv, colspan: 2, align: right]% Daily Value *[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Total Fat 0 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]0 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub]Saturated Fat 0 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]0 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub, colspan: 2]Monounsaturated Fat 0 g[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub, colspan: 2]Polyunsaturated Fat 0 g[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub, colspan: 2]Trans Fat 0 g[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Cholesterol 0 mg[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]0 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Sodium 153 mg[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]6 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Potassium 850 mg[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]24 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Total Carbohydrate 11 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]4 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub]Dietary Fiber 7 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]28 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=class: sub]Sugars 5 g[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Protein 5 g[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]9 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Vitamin A[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]122 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Vitamin C[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]90 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Calcium[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]6 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Iron[/TD]

[TD=class: dv, align: right]5 %[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]