YamaPapa Posted April 29, 2009 Share #1 Posted April 29, 2009 I just took my new Time Out camper on it's maiden voyage today. Since this is my first trailer I still have alot to learn. The camper pulled great and I did'nt have any major problems. There was one thing that kept happening that I don't know how to correct. I stopped at several intersections and when I had to turn left or right from a stop the front of my RSV started to wobble slightly. When I straightened out it stopped wobbling. I had 30 pounds of tongue weight and I had put air in the rear shocks. I did'nt add any air to the front shocks. Anybody have any suggestions? I would greatly appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBeaver Posted April 29, 2009 Share #2 Posted April 29, 2009 Simple physics my friend. Get that tongue weight as close to 0lbs as possible and the bike will handle like there is nothing behind it (well... almost). The [tongue] weight of the trailer is concentrated at the point of which the hitch connects to the frame of the bike. With extra weight on the back, the rear wheel is effectively a fulcrum (point of rotation) for the bike when analyzed based on the addition of the trailer. If you push down more on the back end, the front end will be effectively lighter - thereby reducing the normal force between the front tire and the road which reduces the net traction of the front wheel which could be responsible for the front end wobble. There are many more factors that could 'weigh in' (no pun intended) but if it were me, this would be the place that I would start in terms of trying to smooth things out a wee bit. Hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadKill Posted April 29, 2009 Share #3 Posted April 29, 2009 Simple physics my friend. Get that tongue weight as close to 0lbs as possible and the bike will handle like there is nothing behind it (well... almost). The [tongue] weight of the trailer is concentrated at the point of which the hitch connects to the frame of the bike. With extra weight on the back, the rear wheel is effectively a fulcrum (point of rotation) for the bike when analyzed based on the addition of the trailer. If you push down more on the back end, the front end will be effectively lighter - thereby reducing the normal force between the front tire and the road which reduces the net traction of the front wheel which could be responsible for the front end wobble. There are many more factors that could 'weigh in' (no pun intended) but if it were me, this would be the place that I would start in terms of trying to smooth things out a wee bit. Hope that helps! This is definetly what you would think would be correct. However, all the trailer Pro's and trailer forums say if you have issues with trailer waggle to add more tongue weight. There is a % they use, like 10% of trailer weight I believe. So, it might actually be you need to add a little MORE tongue weight since a Time Out is pretty heavy. Just doesn't make sense does it, but they swear it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidley Posted April 29, 2009 Share #4 Posted April 29, 2009 This is definetly what you would think would be correct. However, all the trailer Pro's and trailer forums say if you have issues with trailer waggle to add more tongue weight. There is a % they use, like 10% of trailer weight I believe. So, it might actually be you need to add a little MORE tongue weight since a Time Out is pretty heavy. Just doesn't make sense does it, but they swear it works. Jay is right on the money with his statement, you need to have some tounge weight in order for the trailer to track properly. I have logged better than 30000 miles pulling a trailer and have had to adjust the tounge weight from time to time to get the right balance. You might have too much weight in the front as this will make the front end light and cause the wobble, you'll have to practice with it to find the happy medium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryan52577 Posted April 29, 2009 Share #5 Posted April 29, 2009 I have pulled trailers for years behind a few different bikes "small and large campers to a 12 foot john boat". What you are talking about "when you first start out to turn right or left the front end wobbles" is to me pretty normal if you think about it. The bike is on two wheels and the trailer is "pulling" at the rear of the rear wheel at an angle going around a corner. When you straighten out it is fine and you probably forget it is even there (till you stop). The weight of the trailer will pull harder on your bike and at an angle it is intensified. Once you are moving you have momentum and you will not have the "wobble" at road speed or corners on the road. You will want to watch where you are turning, pot holes will give you a jolt also and gravel or sand will scare the bejebees out of you. LOL All in all after you pull your new trailer for a while you will get better and have an under standing of what some conditions will do. A good habit to get into is when at a stop light/sign and going to make a turn is start out going straight for a few more feet before you make the turn, this will help stop what you are experiencing. Ride safe and enjoy your new trailer. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7Goose Posted April 29, 2009 Share #6 Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) First the disclaimer - I do not profess to be an expert on motorcycle trailers or towing. But I DO have a home made Harbor Freight utility trailer I built (paying particular attention to making sure the frame and axle were absolutely square), and which I have towed about 3,000 miles with my RSV. Most of that with large dogs in a crate on the trailer - significant because they can move around and dynamically change the tongue weight. Sometimes if they get excited, such as anticipating being let out at a rest stop, I can feel the bouncing in the bike. Even with all that, I have NEVER EVER felt any front end wobble or shake, or instability of any kind, under any conditions, while towing this trailer. I would strongly urge you not to consider this normal. You do need some weight on the tongue, but 30 lbs sounds like an awful lot to me for a motorcycle trailer. I'd suggest you drop that to no more than 20 for a test. In addition, I'd have someone ride behind you carefully watching how that trailer tracks. The observer should see absolutely no sway or wiggle of any type in the trailer at any time. In addition, careful attention should be paid to ensuring the trailer tracks absolutely straight and centered. Two other things to check - tire condition and front fork air. If the trailer is not new, examine the tires VERY closely for any sign of wear difference between the tires (and symmetrical wear on each tire). If you find any wear differences, there is a problem with the trailer. Also inspect your front tire for wear - any cupping or feathering will indicate a potential problem that might be magnified by the trailer. Verify your front forks are EXACTLY equal in pressure; any difference at all, no matter how minor, will affect handling (and be magnified by a trailer). Probably the best test is to ensure both forks have NO air. Goose Edited April 29, 2009 by V7Goose additional thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikealiasmike Posted April 29, 2009 Share #7 Posted April 29, 2009 Wow, don't think I've ever seen so many contradictory suggestions from the experts on here. Now I'm wondering who will be right... Gonna bookmark this thread to see. God bless. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted April 29, 2009 Share #8 Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) My advice? Check the slack in the hitch!! Whether its a receiver type, and the shank is too loose, or the ball coupler on the trailer is either too tight and causing a bind, or too loose and causing some slop. You can measure tongue weight with a fish scale, making sure its about 10% of the total trailer weight. Then, with the trailer hooked up to the bike, while standing, bend over toward the coupler, place your 2 middle fingers under the coupler, and lift with just your fingers, pulling the assembly up sharply. You should feel a small amount of movement, and hear a slight click or clank. If it seems to move more than about 1/8 inch relative to the hitchball or receiver, or none at all, you need to adjust the slack in the coupler. There will be a nut or bolt, usually on the underside of these small couplers, for adjusting coupler slack. Also, make sure the hitchball is tightened SECURELY, but not overtightened, as this can cause a ball failure. And be sure to check all the mounting hardware and fasteners for the hitch, making sure there is NO play (ZERO) in ANY of it. IF its a receiver hitch, stoop down next to the coupler, grab the shank, and shake it sharply left and right, relative to the back fender of the bike. If its moving more than about 1/4 inch, you need to shim the shank, or use a large setscrew to tighten it. BTW. Sorry lilBeaver, but you should NEVER have 0% tongue weight. This can cause a bad wobble in the trailer if the load shifts even SLIGHTLY to a rearward position, and causes negative tongue weight. Dont do it. Edited April 29, 2009 by tx2sturgis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBeaver Posted April 29, 2009 Share #9 Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) I stand corrected -- I was speaking from a theoretical stand point and should have qualified that... Sorry folks Edited April 29, 2009 by LilBeaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 30, 2009 Share #10 Posted April 30, 2009 like you i have pulled many of trailers many miles and have had that wobble too , when i stop before making a turn i stop short so i can roll a few feet forward before making the turn . when making a turn from a dead stop the bike wants to turn but the trailer want to go straight . if you watch some body make a sharp turn from a dead stop you will see the trailer at one point turn the other way , if you make the turn moving the bike is leaning and will turn smoothly . think about it , turning the handle bars or leaning into a turn witch is eazyer . stopping is more fun ! make sure the bike is straight in front of the trailer when stopping because the trailer will push you around . Thom I have pulled trailers for years behind a few different bikes "small and large campers to a 12 foot john boat". What you are talking about "when you first start out to turn right or left the front end wobbles" is to me pretty normal if you think about it. The bike is on two wheels and the trailer is "pulling" at the rear of the rear wheel at an angle going around a corner. When you straighten out it is fine and you probably forget it is even there (till you stop). The weight of the trailer will pull harder on your bike and at an angle it is intensified. Once you are moving you have momentum and you will not have the "wobble" at road speed or corners on the road. You will want to watch where you are turning, pot holes will give you a jolt also and gravel or sand will scare the bejebees out of you. LOL All in all after you pull your new trailer for a while you will get better and have an under standing of what some conditions will do. A good habit to get into is when at a stop light/sign and going to make a turn is start out going straight for a few more feet before you make the turn, this will help stop what you are experiencing. Ride safe and enjoy your new trailer. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradT Posted April 30, 2009 Share #11 Posted April 30, 2009 Gonna go out on a limb here. It may not be the tongue weight issue but it could be that the weight in the trailer behind the axle exceeds the tongue weight. Try shifting the load around, heavier items directly over the axles. try and lighten the load that is at the rear of the trailer. PS. 30 lbs of tongue weight should be adequate. If the above was not the answer I would be looking at the bike for some issue. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveDanger Posted June 9, 2009 Share #12 Posted June 9, 2009 I weigh in with the lighter tongue weight crowd. I try to always adjust my trailer weight load to give me between 15 and 20 lbs tongue weight. No more, no less. Too little tongue-weight is asking for trailer wiggle and sway, if not the dreaded hitch disconnect, and too much tongue weight generates front end wiggle. The excess weight behind the rear axle does tend to lift the front end of the bike a tiny bit, and it changes the angle at which the front forks intersect the road surface... this is what's important... that front fork angle is engineered into the bike to give it an exact steering geometry and specific handling. Changing that fork angle decreases or increases that steering geometry, strongly affecting the tendency to wiggle at the fork attach point. Definitely increase the rear suspension air pressure to the max where adjustable, and decrease the tongue weight to 15 - 20 lbs. Get the weight back on the front end, and get that fork angle back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_wells Posted June 9, 2009 Share #13 Posted June 9, 2009 All last year I pulled a small HF trailer weight 200 pound loaded This year a camper weight 450 - 475 loaded When I headed to MD it felt a Bit light in the front end B4 heading home I packed it different moving more weight to the back of the trailer this seemed to make a difference last year it took a few tries to get the load balanced so the bike handled a way I liked load it up drive it around if it doesn't feel right open it up and move some stuff around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted June 9, 2009 Share #14 Posted June 9, 2009 I agree totally with post#10 (Thom440) I always take off rolling forward abit and then make my turn. IF I have to turn on a dead stop,slight "wobble "feel but its as Thom440 says.Try it you will see. Pulling a trailer is very different to most at first then you get used to it..CAUTION: NEVER GET TOO USE TO IT OR OVERCONFIDENT. Now,On my bike also the steering head stem nut was slightly loose and that helped out tremendously. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stardbog Posted June 9, 2009 Share #15 Posted June 9, 2009 YamaPapa, I can see in your profile that your bike is 06 RSV. I know from my experience with 2 up and loaded for weekend trip, my stock Brickstones are acting on same way. Did you change tyre by now or you are still on stock ones. Or if you are change tires did you go with same brand? Try Avon Venom in stock size and you will fill HUGE difference in handling. Don't know anything about trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb In Texas Posted June 9, 2009 Share #16 Posted June 9, 2009 I pull a trailer all the time. From what I gleen from the post is, No wobble at road speed only when turning from a stop. Others have said take off straight then turn. This is correct! The wobble comes from FLEX in both the rear structure of the motor cycle and the trailer tounge. As you take off and turn load is applied to the (for lack of a better term) fender mount and trailer tounge. this causes them both to flex sideways a bit then as they recover you are increasing speed wich starts the whole thig over again in a rapid sequence, resonating through the bike and into the front fork and bars where you notice it. Build an angled brace from the front of your bag mount near the frame of the bike to the outer most corner. one for each side. then if your tounge is a channel type affair lay a piece of 10 gauge strap a 1/2" wider than the tounge and stitch weld it on. Other wise pull off straight make your turn then get mostly straight before romping on the throtle. Herb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted June 9, 2009 Share #17 Posted June 9, 2009 I don't see anything out of the ordinary here, other than some are not answering the original question. This often happens and I hope you can decipher what you need. I have the same problem as you, hook up the trailer and slowly make a turn and the front end wiggles around the turn as if it wants to do it, a little at a time. As with some other issues you have in life, let her have her way with you until your done, don't pay her much mind, she's going your way albeit maybe not so willingly, (normal), but she will get there. Once you give her a clear and straight direction, she'll cease her arguing with you. Her tail is pulling you off of center, and if the is any restriction on the road surface, stones, dips, sand or anything, she will pull. As suggested, start moving first, then turn, but that doesn't always eliminate the problem. Getting used to it and letting it ride is my answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmoff1698 Posted June 9, 2009 Share #18 Posted June 9, 2009 Just refilled the ink in my computer screen so I might a well join in. Like many of you, I have pulled a cargo trailer for many years, but this weekend was the first time I pulled my Time Out camper long distance. It is much heaver than I am used to pulling and I noticed the wobble when turning. I also noticed a lot more resistance (push) in a curve than I was used to, and bumps in the road were much more harsh. I'm not happy. I was weighing in at about 35 pounds of tounge weight and 45 pounds of air in the shock. The next morning I repacked the heaver stuff to the rear, reducing the tounge weight to about 15-20 pounds. This greatly smoothed out the ride and eliminated most of the push through curves. As has been said, stopping 5 feet sooner eliminated the wobble in a turn from stop. I'm happy again!!! BTW..Another lesson learned on this trip. With a Time Out Camper the wheel well hump on the floor IS NOT TO BE USED AS A STEP STOOL when gettin into bed. It will break out the bottom of the floor and you are left with a hole above the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted June 9, 2009 Share #19 Posted June 9, 2009 ..... BTW..Another lesson learned on this trip. With a Time Out Camper the wheel well hump on the floor IS NOT TO BE USED AS A STEP STOOL when gettin into bed. It will break out the bottom of the floor and you are left with a hole above the wheel. You know the rules!! We want pics!!! .....Oh ...sorry..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyduck Posted June 18, 2009 Share #20 Posted June 18, 2009 My only experience is pulling an Aspen Classic camper trailer - about 500 pounds loaded. I have put on about 10000 miles with it over 3 seasons. I have the same problem. I also have a very small hint of it when 2 up and with a lot of weight on the rear wheel, as in my HD TourPak is full and so is the big T-Bag that fits on top. This was true with two different sets of tires and both the stock rear shock and my new Works Performance unit. I don't really know what causes it - and some Venture riders that I have talked to say that theirs doesn't do it at all. I have had a thought that it may relate to the shaft drive and some uneven shaft jacking as the drive internals rotate, accented due the stress load / weight balance of the bike/trailer combo. But my feeble brain can't make sense of the mechanics of that notion. It's just that the rhythm of the whole thing makes me think of drive train....? For me the bottom line is that it hasn't worsened or changed in any way for 10000 miles and it's no more than an annoyance. So I don't worry about it. But I do stay aware of it and monitor for any changes. Any worsening would certainly be bad news... Anyhow that's how I'm proceeding....good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCReb Posted June 18, 2009 Share #21 Posted June 18, 2009 I read someplace, maybe the hitch receiver instructions, I really don't remember. What I do remember is it said 15 lbs. max tongue weight. My frontend feels a little light if I load it heaver than that. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckShot Posted June 18, 2009 Share #22 Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) A good rule of thumb is that the tongue weight should be between 5 % and 10% of the total trailer weight. It should never be under 3%. A negative tongue weight, or even a low tongue weight is dangerous. Try to get the tongue weight over 10 pounds but under 40 pounds. Steering head should be torqued to the correct specs. It's a good idea to start pulling forward before the turn as this helps in the turn. I had a small wobble at start but one day the whole bike started a wobble in a curve without the trailer. Steering head nut had loosened up. Probably would have never noticed it if I hadn't taken that curve a little to fast. I always add about 5 pounds to the front forks on my 86 after adding to the rear when I pull a trailer. Edited June 19, 2009 by BuckShot air in front forks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brake Pad Posted June 19, 2009 Share #23 Posted June 19, 2009 On windy days, most of the time coming over a bridge, I feel like the front of the bike is off the ground, like a floating feeling, scares, the S*$# out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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