My day Yesterday

[Marcarl]

Had an appointment at the dealers to attempt to fix a reoccurring 'tire' bounce on my Spyder. Been playing with this issue for a couple of months now, funny thing is that it's not always the same, sometimes real bad, sometimes hardly noticeable, but downright annoying. So yesterday was the day. 2 weeks ago the dealer had the front wheels off, totally cleaned them inside and out, re-balanced and all seemed good until it came time to ride to Muskegon, vibrated all the way there and back. I made an appointment for 9:15 and planned to be there at 9. Going through Burford a poor guy riding a different breed of scooter was found to be out of gas, so I figured he needed some help first and hey, I had a little time right? Checked to make sure the gas tank was still attached (it was that kind of a MC) and it was, so we got him going first. When that was complete I was on my way again but now a little late,, so the throttle was being used to full effect yet once again. County Road 13 in Oxford County is a nice road, a great road for a test ride and able to show any issues between road, bike and rider. Man that road is nice, smooth as a baby's bottom, and nice scenery,,, time to let the scooter do it's thing,,,,and yep at about 110kph the vibration shows up,, well best not leave it there, the road is clear, no traffic, the sun is shinning and Tri-pod is looking for more,,, vibration still there @ 130,,,, ok, so back off, cool it,, hill coming up and have no idea who's hiding behind it,,,,,, hey!!!!! that looks like the top of a marked vehicle,, slow off some more but not fast enough,,, she was nice about it,,,even gave me an award,, really nice of her to pick me out like that,,,,, hey nice bike, good lookin rider, and lots of other things going,,,,,,, fast,,,,, too fast,,,, $115 too fast and now I'm really late. Call the dealer to explain the happenings and get there in time to get looked after. Service manager and the owner both take Tri-pod out for a ride and both come back shaking their heads,,,, can't find anything wrong,, runs like a deer,,can't sympathize with what I am trying to explain,,, so I take it out for another ride,,, and you know something??? they're right,,, it runs perfect,,, so I thank them for their patience and head off to my next destination. The day hasn't went too bad so far,, helped a fellow rider, helped out with the County budget, and met with some nice folks and even gave them a free ride on my scooter. Brenner, here I come. Well almost... left Courtland on Hwy 3 traveling to Delhi. They repaved this section last year but did a lousy job, Tri-pod didn't blink, ran just fine,,,, once through Delhi it was on the Simcoe,,, much better pavement and Tri-pod let me know it,,,, vibrating came right back,, so I turned her around and headed back to Courtland, and drove right into the service bay,,, kind of bold I admit, but I was on a mission. No sympathy from the folks there,,, they had taken their test ride, found nothing lacking and that was that. Wrong attitude!!!! I told them that I would like the right front tire removed, cleaned and rebalanced,,, they obliged! 2 weeks ago they did that for $57 for 2 tires and now they did it for 1 tire, same price,,,, guess the price just went up. They probably thought that I would ride 35 minutes just because I need to ride, for they did not follow up on the issue at all... in fact I got the feeling I was getting in the way. Funny how you can leave people with a load of cash and then they decline to delve into an issue. I don't like that feeling, so best way to deal with that is not to go looking for that again,,,, I might just do that.

Now off to see Brenner,,, who happened to be home and talkative,,,yep, just his normal self,,,, he can out-talk Saddlebum and Wizard combined,,, not a bad thing mind you,, just a fact. I look at his rides,,,, some nice and some even begging to be ridden, and in return he wants to ogle Tri-Pod,,, which Tri-pod graciously allows,,, even blinked her eyes at him,,, nice of her to do that,(BS) and so the talk gets onto the tires and vibration, but what he told me will remain secret for now, but makes altogether good sense so will be tried in the very near future. Thanks Brenner, you're the best for sharing from your vast knowledge base,,, sure beats going to the dealer.

After all that I joined Wizard765 and Xv1100se on a nice ride from Fort Erie to home,,, thanks for letting me tag along guys.

Now what was I trying to say with all this????? Can't remember,,, but if I do, I'll be sure to tell Ya'll

[billmac]

Seems dealers just don't know how to trouble shoot problems for tri pods yet and don't care. They will take your money with a smile.

[djh3]

To bad it vibrated so bad it shook the speedo to where it didnt register correctly. Well that would be my story.......

[Dale124]

Well, that was like watching a long movie only to find out the ending was a cliff hanger, and we have to wait for the sequel to find out what happened. Hopefully you find a solution and let us know what it was.

Dale.

[WildBill1]

Probably a computer sensor glitch in the front steering mechanism. My friend has a 2013 Can am with a similar problem.

[cowpuc]

I wonder if taking the front wheels/tires to a car tire shop and having them spun on a high speed balancer would reveal anything Carl? If I recall, aren't the wheels on those babys mounted with lug nuts like a car wheel? Maybe your Canam dealer isnt set up for dealing with balancing them properly..

[Venturous Randy]

If the dealer has a balancer for motorcycle tires, it may not be set up to balance dynamically, but static, even if it is being spun. By being static, it is like single plane balancing. On a car tire, that is why it needs to be balanced in regard to the outside of the rim and the inside of the rim. What happens is if there is extra weight on the outside of the tire at one spot and if there is a heavy spot on the inside of the tire, say 180 degrees off, when the tire is spinning, the heavy spots try to go to the center of the plane and what you get is a wobble, or shimmy.

I found this out many years ago when having a 240Z with Mcpherson struts as they were real susceptible to this. This goes along with cowpuc was saying.

Randy

Edited August 7, 2015 by Venturous Randy

[Marcarl]

Good thinking on the balance thought, but the shanks on the car tire balancer is too large for the small hole in the wheel center. Got another idea that I will follow up tomorrow,, it makes sense to me, but for now the words cannot be spoken.

[Venturous Randy]

One more comment to the type imbalance I am referring to. It can be noticeable if you are taking a long sweeping curve. If both wheels are slightly out of dynamically balance, what you will get is as you go through the curve, there will be periods where the shimmy will come and go. This is because there will be times when the wheels are shimming together, adding to the problem and there will be times when the wheels are opposite and will actually offset and cancel each other and any shimmy may not be noticeable. This another reason people have problems on "mag" type wheels where they want all the weights on the back side and not visible.

Is there any way that you have met any other tripod bike owners that would let you swap front tires for a test ride?

Randy

[Marcarl]

Thanks for the continued input. Cornering is not an issue though. When the bounce (vibration) happens I try to find a slow curve or corner to determine which side is the culprit, but it doesn't tell me much. I'm starting to think that all I learned about automotive is all hog wash, and I need to start all over new. Not that I'm an expert, but all automotive has always had an interest with me, so I always pay rapt attention when it comes to problems and fixing.

In the past the bike has run alright at times, not perfect but alright and drivable. Then without even getting off, I would take off like a slingshot (not a real one I suppose) and wow, have a real bounce, like the wheel is coming off the road type thing. I would, could repeat this without having the issue return. I've also noticed this to happen on hard cornering at slow speeds. Made a hard right turn once when the scoot had been riding pretty good the rest of the 4 hour ride, and then right away a heavy bounce, which slowly went away over the next 10 miles....... surely interesting. Checked, shocks, bushings, ball joints, wheel lugs, all seems good. Got 22,000 km on the clock, should be good.

[relic]

Sorry to hear you are still having issues with the Spyder. I know nothing about auto but would think if something is out of balance then it is always out of balance until fixed. Would not come and go? Glad to hear that I am not the only one helping out the police benevolant fund but my ticket to the ball would be first class compared to the cheap seats you will be in. lol If you stayed at the 130 mark you would have just beat me. Hope you get it all worked out with the trike.

[XV1100SE]

Carl... have you seen these posts in forums ? Sounds like your issue is fairly common.

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?55502-Vibration-at-interstate-speeds-Input-please-2012-Spyder-RT-Limited-4200-miles => belt tension is not correct

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?48120-Is-Can-Am-aware-that-some-2013-RT-s-have-severe-handling-issues => unusual tire wear on my front wheels. Toe in was determined to be the problem (with 2013's)

http://www.ridermagazine.com/top-stories/2014-can-am-spyder-rt-first-ride-review.htm/ => vibration cruising at 4,100 rpm in top sixth gear, which Tissier attributed to some resonance from the belt final drive....have the front suspension and steering componants checked, including toeing adj., tire pressure, and uneaven tire ware, and wheel bearing tightness.there is a reason for this abnormal vibration....

http://www.canamspyderforums.com/forums/engine-transmission-suspension/2887-vibration-around-50-mph.html => because of Can-Am lowering the belt tension? - align and tension the belt - intermittent vibration throught my floorboards out at "highway-gobbling" speeds...The dealer re-set the tension and re-aligned the belt; all is back to good! - what would happen is the belt would expand a bit and it would flutter which would make the bike vibrate, a little blip on the throttle would get rid of it and than it would come back again as the speed raised and lowered between 46 and 54 mph below the 46 mph and above 54 mph all was good but between those speeds the belt would flutter - SmoothSpyder belt tensioner...adjusted to about 13.5 lbs

 

 

[Marcarl]

Thanks Don,, been there already, done all that already,,, nobody mentioned what the real problem was,,, vibration from the belt seems to be the norm, but what about tire bounce, vibration at different speeds, changing pavement, different temperatures, and being not bad, to hang onto this thing it's going to bounce off the road. helps to have the front tires going in the same direction as the rider would have the machine go. When you have a wayward one and the rear pushing straight as it should, then you have 2 against one, and the one is going to create all the misery. Set it straight I did,, and so far so good. And I thought the dealer would get it right,,,seems not. Gonna look for a new shade tree pretty soon, no sense in paying out good money for the present one.

[vzuden]

Carl, has anyone checked all three rims to see if they are true?

[Marcarl]

Carl, has anyone checked all three rims to see if they are true?

 

First thing I did when they were on the balancer, but thanks for the input. Tomorrow will tell the tale I hope.

[dogman]

So is today the day that everything gets resolved with your tires?

[Marcarl]

Well,,,, I have some news,,, maybe just an update,,,, changed the way the front wheels pointed,, they now point 'in' rather than having the right one point out. Quite a difference in handling,, good improvement, but didn't entirely get rid of bounce, so added some new sneakers to the front,, improved some more,,, but still not as perfect as I would like. Maybe I'm getting too fussy, maybe not,,, gonna take a brand new one on a ride this weekend maybe and see if there is a difference and maybe, just maybe the experts at Pioneer have some input.

At this point though,,, quite rideable and enjoyable.

[Brenner]

Well,,,, I have some news,,, maybe just an update,,,, changed the way the front wheels pointed,, they now point 'in' rather than having the right one point out. Quite a difference in handling,, good improvement, but didn't entirely get rid of bounce, so added some new sneakers to the front,, improved some more,,, but still not as perfect as I would like. Maybe I'm getting too fussy, maybe not,,, gonna take a brand new one on a ride this weekend maybe and see if there is a difference and maybe, just maybe the experts at Pioneer have some input.

At this point though,,, quite rideable and enjoyable.

 

 

Carl, if by chance after you try what we discussed and you feel it benefited you please feel free to let me know. It would be great to confirm if my thoughts and your findings were correct and I would be able to use you as a positive example before advising others of my experience with similar concerns. Always nice to find out if given advice was good or not. Good luck.

[Brenner]

I was at the Niagara Falls motorcycle show and shine today and came across a blue one that had the same symptoms as Carls. I did not see the rider/owner but the issue seems to be on more than one machine. I do not go out of my way to look at these machines but since I saw Carl and his concern I seem to be looking at more and more of them.

[Marcarl]

So finally an update, hopefully the last one.

Done an alignment on the front, installed new sneakers on the front and this past weekend had Pioneer Motorsports check and balance thee rear wheel. Seems the whole bounce issue was a combination of all told.

The front end was out of line, right side was toed out which cupped the front tires. Did the alignment and it was a different machine for sure,, not that it was bad before, but the work did make a noticeable difference in the tracking and handling. Still had some bounce,, so,,, I replaced the cupped tires,,, now that again made a difference, but not the total cure,,, so Pioneer was good enough to pull the rear tire, check it for balance, and found it to be out by 1-3\4 oz. Removed all the weights and then need 1.5 oz to balance. Now we are happy campers,,, motelers.

During having the work done on my 2014, PMS was good enough to lend me a brand new (700 miles) demo. Same issues there, so I informed Hank the service manager of my opinion, and he thanked me,,,, nice guy,,,, nahh,,,,, REAL NICE guy.

Hopefully this ends as it is.

Thanks Brenner for your input.

[Marcarl]

It's not done yet,,,, rode back from WNY rally and was quite pleased,, although I could at times feel a slight thumping, but thought it could be my head doing funny things. Yesterday I went out and lo and behold it was back with a vengeance,,,not the front though, now I know this is in the rear. Before at times it was hard to determine, so the alignment and new skins did solve the front end issue,,, but now what's with the back,,, had it taken off at Pioneer and balanced and rechecked and then checked again. Now this bounce. The rear is an inside\outside tire, Kumho,Ecsta Ast Ku25, runs fine until about 80kph, and then rattles my back teeth if I had them.

[Flyinfool]

Check to see if your new weights fell off the rear wheel

[Marcarl]

Finally got it right. Left the front as it was and installed a new rear tire, this one is a Falken, not that it matters I don't think. Bought it at a car tire shop, and went one size narrower, but just as tall as the OEM Kenda. Dealership couldn't balance the tire so I took it to a MC dealer to balance. As I watched the young man attempt the procedure I noticed that the wheel and tire were too heavy for the machine and so made the shaft wobble,,,, well that won't do anything for a balance and he agreed,,, koddos for him. As they had the same balancer as most other shops I have seen, I got to thinking that maybe, just maybe I really never had this roller truly balanced before, so I took it home and made my very own balance set-up. It took a while, but in the end I had a balanced tire,,,, nice difference,,, but didn't entirely solve the problem just yet. Mostly though, it ran nice and smooth with the occasional vibration now and then. So, seeing as it wasn't constant,,,, as indicated before, an out of balance would be there all the time, I decided that I needed to do another Brenner on the front, and seeing as I had now determined that the right front was more errant then the left, I gave that tie-rod one half turn to stretch it out some.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!

Thanks for all your help and input,,, and I am now set up to get this right for others.

[Ky. Rider]

Have a friend whose Can Am was doing something similar. Loose belt.

[Marcarl]

Ya, a loose belt will give vibrations at certain speeds, but a bounce comes from the wheels. Belt should run between 200 and 250 lbs as measured with a Krikit. I also use a belt tensioner to lessen the vibration that come from the long run on the belt. Saves on bearings and belt wear.