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"Engine cranks, no ignition, no error codes"


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Went to say hi to my 05 RSV. She was happy to see me. (Only been a few weeks). My buddy and I cleaned her up. I wanted her to look good for a ride in the morning. After cleaning, I put the key in and started her up. Well...tried to. Engine cranked fast but not even a pop. Now, I always let the fuel pump fill the bowls after she's been sitting.... fuel pump works fine.

Didn't use much water so don't think we shorted out anything. Ignition fuse is good.

Checked spark off of 1 plug. Nothing. Checked the kill switch...works. Worked all the other switches, stand, clutch, etc., Nothing changed anything. Pulled tank. Checked fuel. All there. 

So I'm down to bad switches/connectors somewhere. Bad ignition switch. Bad tci. . She was running perfectly 2 weeks ago. 

Went over the service manual... Looking at schematics/troubleshooting. Not much help there. Especially when you see how the ignition system goes all over the bike.... Even the cruise module! 

Where is the tci located so I can check the board? Or is there a connector from the tci that I can get to easier? How can I check the ignition switch to see if it's not corroded? Do you just drill out the anti-to theft thingies? And reinstall with bolts or screws?

Inquiring minds would appreciate ideas!!

TIA,

David

 

P. S. What's really a pisser is that this weekend is unusually cool for Phoenix. Would have been a great ride!

Sigh...

 

Edited by videoarizona
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Look in the read only tech section at the ignition bypass, that should give enough info to be able to check it without drilling it out. I installed the bypass relay and keep parts in my kit to totally bypass it if it dies on the road. 

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Hi Ronnie, thanks for replying.

In looking over the bypass and switch repair posts, I'm wondering now if the switch is working. One of the first things I did when I bought the scoot was to add the bypass relay to get the current off the switch. 

My problem is the starting circuit works. Everything works on the bike except no spark to plugs. 12 volt to coils is there. The ground side of coils fluctuates during cranking but no spark. 

Does the ignition switch have an ignition switch as well as a starting switch? I see the starting circuit (engages starter solenoid) and that works fine. The ignition fuse is fine as well...

If the main switch really only switches current to all circuits, then it's working fine. 

What controls the actual ignition besides the tci? I guess that should be my question. Cause everything is working except the plugs firing. The side stand switch and it's cohorts stop the starter from turning. But that's not my problem... Motor turns over nicely.

I tried to trace back from the coils to see what else can stop the motor from firing and get stopped at the tci. 

Does that mean the ignitor(tci) has gone bad?

Thanks for all thoughts and ideas.

David

 

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The electronic side of this is my weakest part. In my head (scary place to be) the switch controls power to the coils and the TCI controls the ground. If that’s correct and you have power to the coils it would point to the TCI and/or the connectors to it. Hopefully somebody with more knowledge will step in here. 

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Pick up coil that is next to the stator

If bike is not getting spark I would bet on that.

Not sure how to test but it is the 2 wires coming out of stator case.

Not the three white wires from stator but 2 smaller wires

Edited by Cowboy
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You may have already tried this, but I'll pass it on regardless.  Occasionally, my bike (2nd Gen RSV) will crank as usual with no fire.  Everything seems to work as far as the dash and other lights, and whether it's been sitting for days, or just long enough to put in gas....it'll crank like normal but won't start.  If I turn the key fully "off" then back on it'll fire.  Sometimes just holding the key and giving it the slightest twist, and I do mean Slightest...it'll fire.  I first experienced this a couple of years ago and working the theory that it was the contacts in the switch, I removed the switch and cleaned them up.  I don't recall having the problem last year, but it has happened a couple of times this year, so last weekend I pulled the ignition and dressed the contacts again.  Only ridden once since then, and the bike started with no drama.

Time will tell for how long.

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You probably have done this. But rotate the switch thru a few cycles and see if it starts. I think there is separate contacts in switch that connect ECM to power. If not let me know and I'll dig thru my wiring stuff and get you the info to rig up a switch by pass to test out.

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15 hours ago, djh3 said:

You probably have done this. But rotate the switch thru a few cycles and see if it starts. I think there is separate contacts in switch that connect ECM to power. If not let me know and I'll dig thru my wiring stuff and get you the info to rig up a switch by pass to test out.

Thanks Dion. I already have the power bypass harness. But don't think that handles the tci stuff. I thought that just sends the un-necessay current to a relay to by pass ignition switch.

I'll be working on bike tomorrow morning. I'm hoping it's just a dirty switch contact. 

David

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20 hours ago, videoarizona said:

Thanks Dion. I already have the power bypass harness. But don't think that handles the tci stuff. I thought that just sends the un-necessay current to a relay to by pass ignition switch.

I'll be working on bike tomorrow morning. I'm hoping it's just a dirty switch contact. 

David

Ok. Update.

I have checked the switches that are in the starting circuit, they all work. Starter cranks well.

In the ignition circuit, I can't find the connector for the pick up coil. It is no where near where the book says it should be. No 2 wire connector nearby. So can't check it. I'll keep looking...

But, the main switch has 5 wires in 2 red connectors. The main 2 wires that send power to the starter, lights, etc.,  They have continuity when switch is on. The other three wires in the smaller connector ...one supplies power to ignition fuse and two that go to the ignitor have no continuity between them. They should. When switch is on, all 3 should be tied together. 

I think this is my problem.

1 is brown/black, 1 is blue/yellow and 1 is blue/ black. You must disconnect battery before testing this connector or you will damage the ignition system. You are only checking for continuity among the pins.

So Dion.... I'm not sure how you can cobble something up to by pass this as all I know... All 5 connections should have 12 volts. Not being able to see the inside of the ignition switch, I don't know what, if any, games Yamaha may be playing there. Resistance? Diodes? Nothing shows in schematic but that doesn't mean much to me...I could tie 12 volts to all 3 pins but afraid I might damage something...??!!??

So that's where I'm at. 

Need help in determining which 2 bolts need to be drilled out in the ignition switch. Book shows 2 mounted on side. Must be for the TD bike. 

 

 

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On 5/27/2021 at 7:55 PM, djh3 said:

You probably have done this. But rotate the switch thru a few cycles and see if it starts. I think there is separate contacts in switch that connect ECM to power. If not let me know and I'll dig thru my wiring stuff and get you the info to rig up a switch by pass to test out.

Thanks Dion. I already have the power bypass harness. But don't think that handles the tci stuff. I thought that just sends the un-necessay current to a relay to by pass ignition switch.

I'll be working on bike tomorrow morning. I'm hoping it's just a dirty switch contact. 

David

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Quit for today. Buddy needs to get some sleep. Still nothing from the ignition switch. @popafred2000, can you help me out on which two bolts for the ignition switch? I assume I drill them out. Top two or bottom two? Process or tips?

Anyone have a second gen ignition switch with key I can borrow to test my bike with? I'll pay shipping both ways.

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Just now, videoarizona said:

Quit for today. Buddy needs to get some sleep. Still nothing from the ignition switch. @popafred2000, can you help me out on which two bolts for the ignition switch? I assume I drill them out. Top two or bottom two? Process or tips?

Anyone have a second gen ignition switch with key I can borrow to test my bike with? I'll pay shipping both ways.

Also, the ignition system goes through the side stand switch. Really??!! Icouldn't find the connector for that either. Who knows where Mom Yamaha hid that little puppy! It's also goes through the clutch switch, but that seems good. 

Always something...

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23 minutes ago, videoarizona said:

Also, the ignition system goes through the side stand switch. Really??!! Icouldn't find the connector for that either. Who knows where Mom Yamaha hid that little puppy! It's also goes through the clutch switch, but that seems good. 

Always something...

Through side stand switch I get, that’s how I usually kill mine. Stop, stand down, then key. I understand the starter circuit thru the clutch but don’t know why the ignition would be there. 

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If the side stand switch or the clutch switch were faulty you would not be able to crank the engine over and since you can I would assume they are OK. I do not have a lot of second gen experience but I am good with electrical regardless so studying the following schematics. I will try to help best I can. In my experience as a mechanic schematics are your best friend regardless of the vehicle.

DO THE FOLLOWING CHECKS WITH ALL CONNECTORS DISCONNECTED AT THE IGNITER UNIT

  1. check the connectors at your igniter unit  to be sure the contacts are all clean and secure. If not clean and repair (particularly look for greenish powdery looking stuff known as terminal fretting ) 
  2. Looking at the 6 pin connector from the igniter unit test the black wire for proper ground connection
  3. With ignition switch on check for GROUND at the blue/black on the 8 pin connector. (if no ground check Ignition  switch see test #9, neutral switch and and clutch switch)
  4. Check the Black/white wire at 4 pin connector for ground ( if no ground check the the emergency fall over sensor switch )
  5. Check the red/black wire going to the coils (this should have 12VOLTS with key on and stop switch in run position)
  6. Check the sky blue wire at the at the 8 pin connector 1st with bike in neutral and then with bike in gear. In one position this wire should show good ground and in the other position No ground. (if no ground check Ignition switch see test #9, neutral switch and and clutch switch)
  7. Connect  an ohmmeter between the yellow wire and blue wire at the 8 pin connector and roll the throttle. Resistance should vary up and down as you roll the throttle back and forth. You can check manual for exact spec range to be more precise if needed.
  8. Connect an Ohmmeter between the black/blue and the white/red wires on the 8 pin connector. These are the two wires going to your pickup coil and should read 189 to 231 ohms.
  9. Disconnect connectors at ignition switch connect ohmmeter between blue/yellow and blue/black should show closed circuit with switch on and open circuit with switch off. 

If any of the above tests fail back track the faulty circuit until you find the cause. I start by tracing back to the next connector until I find at which connector the issue begins and then check the wiring between the connector that test out good and the one that test out bad. this is a quick way to isolate were the issue exists rather than randomly jumping all over the board hoping to get get lucky.

 

https://www.venturerider.org/wiring/99-09 Yamaha Royal Star Venture Wiring Diagram Rev B.pdf

 

 

Edited by saddlebum
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Afternoon Ben.

BTW, before I forget... Happy Birthday in a couple of weeks!

I've been studying that schematic for a few days now and follow everything you posted. I started on the other end, making sure the contacts worked at the clutch and sidestand. Then moved to the ignition switch. 

I have no continuity between the yellow/blue and black/blue.  They feed the ignition/ignitor circuits. I do have continuity at the main 2 power.

So I've concluded (hopefully correctly) that without continuity from those 2 circuits, the motor will spin but never fire since the igniter isn't getting the required 12volts from those 2 wires. 

The darn ignition switch fought me tooth and nail this morning. But it's now in my little hands. I have to take it home with me Wednesday as I need an impact driver to get the 2 screws off that hold it together. So I've gone as far as I can at the moment. 

Thanks to all for the help.... Cross your fingers I can clean up the contacts and be back in business next week!

 

16224059007065815053486652952922.jpg

Edited by videoarizona
Fumble fingers at work...?
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Oh... Instead of drilling out the 2 bolts holding the switch to the frame, it would have been much easier to use a small cold chisel and cut a groove across the bolt head. It's relatively soft. Then use a big screwdriver and back the bolts out. 

Drilling took a couple of different size bits and lots of work. I was afraid of screwing up the switch body so took my time. 

You can also use the groove you just made to pop off each side of the bolt head by tapping sideways on it. Then reach underneath with a needle nose and turn the bolt out. 

Either way, you need to get enough clearance under the switch to be able to clear the top of the triple tree where the fork lock does it's thing. Breaking off the bolts at the level of the switch doesn't cut it. Can't lift switch to clear triple tree.

 

Live and learn....

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4 hours ago, videoarizona said:

I have no continuity between the yellow/blue and black/blue.  They feed the ignition/ignitor circuits. I do have continuity at the main 2 power.

Ok I am assuming when you say yellow/blue you really mean blue/yellow (Ly) and when you say black/blue you really mean blue/black (LB) With wiring were there are two colors the wire color comes first and the color of the strip on that wire comes second Ly would be blue wire with yellow strip. LB would be blue wire with black strip.

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On 5/29/2021 at 3:03 PM, videoarizona said:

Quit for today. Buddy needs to get some sleep. Still nothing from the ignition switch. @popafred2000, can you help me out on which two bolts for the ignition switch? I assume I drill them out. Top two or bottom two? Process or tips?

Anyone have a second gen ignition switch with key I can borrow to test my bike with? I'll pay shipping both ways.

I have a spare ignition switch that you can try if cleaning your contacts doesn't do the trick. Let me know.

 

Ron

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On 5/30/2021 at 11:34 PM, WIZ said:

I have a spare ignition switch that you can try if cleaning your contacts doesn't do the trick. Let me know.

 

Ron

Thanks, Ron. Hopefully I won't need it.

UPDATE: 

Again, the switch fought me every which way. Took an electric jack hammer(kidding) and a drill to get the other 2 screws out, to get to the switch assembly. Finally got it apart. The contact were clean. On both sides! Contact were nice and shiny. Not bad for 16 years. 

Meter time. Wait a minute... No continuity between 2 contacts and their wire ends! Brought out the large soldering gun. Zapped them both. 

Continuity!

Put switch back together. There now is continuity between the 2 little wires that I didn't have before. The blue/yellow and the blue/black now are bridged electrically when key is on. (Thanks, Ben for wire education. Interesting how much I've forgotten!)

SO...my educated guess is...the switch will now work. Unfortunately, I won't be back in Phoenix for a couple of weeks to see if that's the cure.

Thank you to everyone with ideas.

The forum works...again!!

(and of course, I forgot to take pictures)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Final update:

Finally got back up to Phoenix where the RSV is. Went over this morning, and put the ignition switch back in. She fired right up! So the problem was the two contacts in the main switch that tell the igniter to work. The solder joints had broken internally. A quick jolt of a hot soldering gun took care of problem.

 

I'm still getting overflow out of one carb on left side. Only at idle and only when first run....after I turn off choke and she idles for a few minutes. Will start to stumble then overflow will appear on ground.

Once she warms up, the problem doesn't happen. Can ride all day without an issue.

Guess it's time to go back through carbs. They sure looked clean when I went through them a few months ago. 

I should probably check tank for corrosion and fuel lines for issues...although I did that a few months ago. The gas was clean in the jar.

Always something!!!

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4 hours ago, videoarizona said:

Final update:

Finally got back up to Phoenix where the RSV is. Went over this morning, and put the ignition switch back in. She fired right up! So the problem was the two contacts in the main switch that tell the igniter to work. The solder joints had broken internally. A quick jolt of a hot soldering gun took care of problem.

 

I'm still getting overflow out of one carb on left side. Only at idle and only when first run....after I turn off choke and she idles for a few minutes. Will start to stumble then overflow will appear on ground.

Once she warms up, the problem doesn't happen. Can ride all day without an issue.

Guess it's time to go back through carbs. They sure looked clean when I went through them a few months ago. 

I should probably check tank for corrosion and fuel lines for issues...although I did that a few months ago. The gas was clean in the jar.

Always something!!!

Maybe be time to replace the main feed hose, sometimes there is a breakdown of internal components and can get into the float valve.

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10 minutes ago, videoarizona said:

The main fuel line was replaced before I bought the scoot... as the P.O. moved the fuel filter to under tank. 

But... Cheap and easy to check again! That said...I now wonder if all the line was replaced?

If you decide to replace the line going from right side to left, so from the fuel shutoff to the pump, it is a formed line and there is a special protector on the seam of the bottom of the tank that protects the line from being cut. The seam comes too close to miss the line entirely so a protection clip is added to the seam. Make sure that it matches up, or you will have a gas leak in 30 miles or less. I think it's part number 26H-24188-00-00

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13 hours ago, Marcarl said:

If you decide to replace the line going from right side to left, so from the fuel shutoff to the pump, it is a formed line and there is a special protector on the seam of the bottom of the tank that protects the line from being cut. The seam comes too close to miss the line entirely so a protection clip is added to the seam. Make sure that it matches up, or you will have a gas leak in 30 miles or less. I think it's part number 26H-24188-00-00

Thank you!

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  • 7 months later...

UPDATE on fuel overflow issue.

To bring the reader up to speed, I kept my RSV in Phoenix at a friend's garage as I live 150 miles away and wanted a scoot to ride while visiting Phoenix. I rode the 89 VR down here at home.

Well, every time I started the RSV, I would get some fuel running from the overflow on left front after I turned off the choke and let her idle. Shut bike off, tap fuel bowls on left side, start bike and problem may or may not be solved. I took the carbs off, cleaned the crap out of them (they looked clean as can be). Adjusted the floats and put them back on. Problem was still there but intermittent. Got disgusted, rented a trailer and brought the bike back home to work on it.

Got it off trailer, fired it up...no overflow problem! What?????

It's been home now for 6 months. Not once has it overflowed. Not once.

So...my buddy and I figure the ride down in the trailer shamed the scoot so much she decided to behave (or vibrations during trip jolted some bad stuff loose), or the 2,000 foot difference in altitude (phoenix is lower) was the problem. We can find no other explanation why a bike would go from consistent overflow upon start to not doing it at all.

Voodoo maybe???

david

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