allwx
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Just to add weight to my thinly argued argument, here is an article from Yuasa about motorcycle batteries. http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2009.pdf On page 15, notice the paragraph that refers to short trips on MOTORCYCLES as being less than "15 to 20 miles." This supports what I said earlier about a 20 miles trip (assumed to be a highway commute at highway speeds without stops) being sufficient to maintain a healthy motorcycle battery at full, or near full, charge. The idea that one would have to ride 100 miles to charge their battery is not supported by the company that makes most of our batteries. On page 18, notice the chart that indicates a full-charge OCV to be 12.8v. No reference to a magical, mythical 12.9v. This 12.8v would indicate a full charge on a healthy, presumably brand-new Yuasa battery. It might even be lower than this, and probably would be, with a battery that has been in use for some time and suffered the ravages of daily abuse. And as has been pointed out by several others here, that OCV must be measured a few hours after the charge is complete, not immediately after charging. Immediately after charging even on an older battery you should get over 13v. But that voltage will gradually settle down to the mid-12s. And, as the article points out, the REAL test of a battery is a functional load test, and the real quality measurement is the voltage to which the battery drops during load of determinate period. The OCV is easy to do, and shows approximately what the state of charge is on the battery. But the accurate, meaningful test is into a REAL load where the current is delivered by the battery for a period of time, say 10 or 15 seconds, and then the lowest v dropped to is measured. By this saying, he who recycles a battery with 12.6v across the terminals might be wasting time and money.
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Agree with all you say about opinions. However, allow me to point out, again, that the 12.9v number is assuming the battery is fresh, ie brand new and fully charged. A battery that is a year old with 12k miles on it, is extremely unlikely to give a 12.9v reading across the terminals even fully charged. Even perfectly maintained. The reason is due to the gradual decline of the battery, which is normal and expected. Most electrical and electronic devices change their operating characteristics as they age. They are engineered with those changes in mind, and capacities are designed so that the device can continue to provide good service within a range. With anything BUT a brand new battery, the more likely measurement is going to be somewhere between 12.5 and 12.8. If you also consider the other environmental factors, such as heat, cold, charging health of the system, riding styles, plus the fact that almost no batteries leave a dealer shop properly prepared, then it is demonstrably less likely that the older battery, though perfectly good, is not able to give the measurer the ideal 12.9v reading. Just because your battery only puts out 12.5v after a full charge doesn't mean it is toast, or anywhere near toast. And, riders who replace these batteries at that point, are going to be buying an awful lot of batteries, and sending an awful lot of perfectly good batteries to the recycle center. Which is the greater disservice? My information is based on my own observations, while yours appear to be based on a reading of specs in a book. Most technicians look at those specs knowing that they are not hard and fast numbers, and that what they will find with their meters will be quite different. BTW I am no battery expert, and am learning new things all the time. I like to be enlightened by people who know more than I do, which is just about everyone. Show me some reliable printed data about batteries that proves your points, and I'll change my mind.
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I'm gonna disagree wit ya that a 20 mile non-stop ride in moderate weather is insufficient to bring a healthy battery up to full charge after a single engine start. Assuming a bike not laden with fancy add-on lighting and electric clothing. I'm gonna say this on the basis of years of riding this way, without using a tender, and having my batteries last and last. I've got a nearly five year old Yuasa YTX20L-BL sitting on my bench. It came in my 07 Venture, so it probably was not properly prepared by the dealer (they never are). For two years, while my wife was in and out of cancer treatment, the bike barely got ridden. I think I put a total of 3k miles on the bike in those two years. There were times, two months would go by without the bike even being started up. I never put that battery on a tender during those years. Every three years, I automatically replace a battery, which I did in this case. Now, it sits under my workbench as a spare, and lately it has been called into action to replace two defective batteries. Still works great. Somehow, my Venture with its miserable charging system, with the bike sitting for weeks and months at a time in a cold garage, kept this battery alive without any help from a tender. As for the 12.9v number, that is an ideal number that would be very difficult to find on a battery that had a few months and miles on it. Most new batteries I've seen will get up to 12.8 or so, and that's about as far as they go. After that they gradually wear out, and after a couple of years will settle down to around 12.5. That is car batteries, too. I think that is normal. I just checked the 540cca Ford battery in my F150. This battery is six months old. Sitting still, open circuit, two hours after being charged to full, I measure 12.6v across the terminals.
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I don't think a tender is necessary if you ride regularly. If you ride at least 40 or 50 miles a couple days a week, you should not have a problem with a healthy battery. If you ride every day, and ride at least 20 miles every day, that should be way enough to keep the battery happy. I've had my Venture for almost five years, and during times two years ago when my wife was very ill with cancer, the bike sat for weeks at a time, and when it got ridden, it didn't get ridden far. Yet, my oem Yuasa always started the bike right away. I never used a tender on it during those years. However, most batteries are on the way down. If you've got one that is three or four years old, it won't be as healthy as a newer battery, and you may be well advised to keep it on a charger during long spells of non-use. And like I do, because I use mine for basic transportation, I keep a spare battery on my bench to be prepared for the inevitable...
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I forgot to add, my recent battery problem started me looking for a load tester. I ended up buying one of these: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/BA7-100-1200-Electronic-Battery-System/dp/B0015PI7A4/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1343260031&sr=8-7&keywords=battery+load+tester]Amazon.com: SOLAR BA7 100-1200 CCA Electronic Battery and System Tester: Automotive@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FNQyhhv4L.@@AMEPARAM@@51FNQyhhv4L[/ame] It seems to work as advertised. I like the fact that it doesn't massively load the battery. The battery doesn't need to be fully charged. It also does charging system voltage measurements. From now on, I'm going to frequently run a test on my battery.
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FYI... I recently had a 4-month old U.S.A. made Yuasa go dead on my 07. Thinking there might be an issue with the charging system, I did some checks. Measuring the ignition-off current draw, I got just under one milliamp. My bike has no accessories installed, and in fact the audio system has been pulled out, the audio fuse removed. However, with ignition off yours should fall somewhere in that area, I would think. Turned out, the battery was dead. That's the second new battery that has died in my Venture in the past four months. Weird.
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Usually the front tire gets cupped much more than the rear. Car tires cup too. Cupping may be the wrong word, though. There is also something called scalloping (I think) but I'm not sure the difference. Either way, the cause is the fact that the tires do different work, and never get rotated to even out the uneven wear.
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If you've got your steering head pretty snug, then there is almost no chance handling problems are coming from there. Unless you got it TOO snug. Back in the day many larger motorcycles came from the factory with a tensioner device on the steering head. My 71 BMW R60, for example, had a black plastic knob. The knob was located where our steering head nut lives. It allowed the rider to snug up the steering head, or loosen it a bit, to fit his riding moment. So, you could actually snug that thing down to where the steering barely moved at all. And if you did that while riding in a straight and level attitude, you'd suddenly lose fine control. I can remember the first time I did that, out of curiosity. The loss of control was scary! And maybe just maybe this is why we don't find these tensioner devices on motorcycles anymore. The steering has to move freely. If it can't move freely, then it can't make those constant tiny back-and-forth movements that are barely detectable, that keep you going in a straight line, or make you turn. Obviously, it doesn't want to move so freely that the steering pipe bangs around in the bearings. That's why the factory sets out a torque calibration on the bearing nut to achieve that just-right balance between too much and too little tension. So, maybe just maybe you've got TOO MUCH tension on the bearing. Again, the result of this would be a bike that is very difficult to control in a straight line.
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You aren't riding on rain grooves are you? Rain grooves in concrete upset most tires to some degree, some worse than others. I was riding over a few miles of grooves today and remembered this thread.. it occurred to me that maybe you've got a lot of that type of surface where you ride, too. And a note about the head bearings. I've ridden this bike with a very loose head bearing, so loose that it really clunked a lot, yet the bike was totally stable at high speeds. I'd only get some wobble during a hands-off-the-bars decel as the bike passed through about 40 mph. Other than that, and the clunking, at high speeds there was no indication whatever of the loose bearing. YMMV, of course.
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Oh yeah, heel shifter. I don't like 'em. I just cut the rear portion off with a hacksaw. It's pretty soft metal and cuts quickly. paint the exposed cut metal and that's that.
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My first impression of the Venture was the same. I hated it. It kept making me afraid of tipping it over. Tranny was stiff shifting. But I've had this same reaction to a few bikes that I later came to love, so I stuck with it. I was still ambivalent about the bike six months later. the first time I started to love the bike was a day I rode along with a group of other riders, mostly on Harleys. There was one guy with a police bike that had been converted to civilian trim. A real nice bike, and very good handling in the mountain turns, and this rider was confident that he was the best one there, put himself out in front, and was tending to ride a mile or two in front of everyone else. Well I locked in behind this guy and eventually realized that I was out-riding him. My much heavier, taller full-fared bike was outmaneuvering him, and soon I was out in front by a mile. Once I trusted the bike to stay where I put it, I liked it a lot. Up until then I wasn't trusting the bike. I would fight it especially in turns. Lean off the opposite side from the turn, subconsciously. And I had this crazy idea that the motor has to be kept up bouncing off the rev limiter all the time. So Once I relaxed and trusted the bike, and started riding it normally, everything fell into place and there was Zen. The Venture grooves on open highway at 85, and equally so on mountain roads with tight hairpins. I don't know how those guys got it so right with such an old design.
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Same here. If it weren't for the Venture's supreme high speed stability and terrific cockpit ergonomics, I'd be riding something else fer shure. For a bike that sits high, has a heavy HANDLEBAR MOUNTED FARING (usually a prescription for wobbly handling), and enormous fuel tank on top of the frame rather than below the saddle, the Venture is a wonder of good handling. Not only is it stable at speed, the bike also handles very well in the turns. I ride mine up and down mountain roads all the time. With a firm hand on the bars, the Venture is the equal or superior of any bike, new or old. I say this as one who has put over 100k miles on four different Goldwings including a GL1800, and also owned a Kaw Voyager (55k miles). The Venture is superior to those, IMO.
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Friend of mine bought a new 96 Royal Star. He couldn't stand the whine, even though his bike had no windshield. He carped and carped about it to the dealer. They changed out the clutch basket and other things more than once. No improvement. Finally, Yamaha agreed to put a completely new motor into the bike. Motor arrived in crate. Shop installed motor. New motor had the same whine. My wife had an 05 Roadstar, a "knocker" (if you know the Roadstars, you probably know what the "knock" is... equivalent to the whine on the venture, I suppose). After lots of back and forth with the dealer and the importer in CA, Yam agreed to put a new motor into the bike. New motor had a knock in it, too, just like the original. Again, lots of blood sweat and tears have been spilt chasing this whine problem. Best advice is, try to ignore it. Put something in or around your ears to block the noise, and it won't exist.
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Yeah most of us have had the same experience. IMO the dealer shops, most of them anyways, are not a good place to take a bike like the Venture. Those shops spend the bulk of their time working on watercraft and fourwheelers. However there ARE good shops around, with good mechanics working in them, who try to do the very best thing for the bike owner. It's hard to find them, and when you find one you really do cherish it. (bear in mind, shop owners and mechanics take a lot of unmerited beating from some bike owners who have unrealistic expectations). You can get what you need out of a dealer shop, but you have to know what you're doing when you go in there. This site will help you get the info you need to tell when you're being BS'd. It will also help you do most work yourself. What isn't contained in articles already available from the archives, is available from owners around the world who are happy to help you out. They could increase the annual sub to $100 and it'd STILL be a great value.
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If the tires are nearing end of life, then it is normal for them to get "grainy" especially in the turns. It is definitely a vibration that can be felt as well as heard. If you only feel it in turns, then it almost surely is the tires. Anything else, like a bearing going bad, would show up in straight and level, too, I think. Me, when I start hearing that howl and feel the graininess in the turns, I know that the tires are soon to be replaced.
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Howdy, Roger... just curious, how many miles you got on that 99? My 07 is coming up on 33k and still no slippage, but I expect it to start any day.
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Well, I didn't argue with them, mainly because the battery they gave me is obviously made in the same factory. The guy brought out a BikeMaster brand, and it was identical in every visual respect to the Yuasa, except made in China, whereas my failed Yuasa made U.S.A. Interestingly the Yuasa was a YTX20BL, the Bikemaster was a BTX20BL, and the one I actually took home is a CTX20BL. I didn't like the look of one of the terminals on that Bikemaster battery, so the guy brought me another one, out of a differently branded box, also Chinese made, and with a slightly different form factor than the Yuasa. In any case, another reason I don't argue about this type of thing is because warranties are always written such that substitutions can be made as deemed necessary by the seller. As long as the substitution is reasonably equivalent, there's nothing to complain about. And especially with batteries, which I assume that pretty much all of them are being made out of the same factory in China. I liked the U.S.A made on my dead Yuasa, but it is, alas, dead.
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It was the battery after all. The local Cycle Gear store took it on warranty. I got an off-brand chinese made looks exactly like the Yuasa, and so far it works great. Thanks for suggestions, and as always the Forum is a necessity of life, couldn't live without it.
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shifter fell off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
allwx replied to clav_guy's topic in Royal Star Venture Tech Talk ('99 - '13)
Well my RSV shifter hasn't fallen off... yet, but my 1970 Harley Sprint shifter did. With me and my young wife on it, out in the forests near Savannah, GA. I went to grab a gear and found no shifter... it had vibrated off. I nursed it in high gear to keep it running by doing a lot of clutch slipping, and managed to find the darned thing lying in the road a few miles back. -
Near as I could tell from shorting the leads on my TekPower DT960 is 0.4 ohm. The reading is erratic, though. I accepted the .4 reading because it stayed at .4 longer than any other number. When I measured the R across the legs at the cable end, the reading flickered a little between .7 and .8, but tended to stay on .7 most of the time. That gives me a value of between .3 and .4 ohm, and each leg was the same. If it was a little higher than .3 I attributed to engine heat and the cable length between the regulator and the stator. I also realized that the lower than expected voltage at the battery I measured with engine running was because the battery was low. As the battery charges up the voltage measured across the terminals rises. When I check the alternator output across the battery, with a more fully charged battery, I get right at 14v, maybe just a hair less. So I think my charging system is OK. Next step I'm taking the battery in to Cycle Gear. I bought it mailorder from CG, and the local store says they wiill help me with the warranty, assuming it is bad. I'll let them load test it and see.
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Thanks, Frank, yeah that's the way I did it. I wouldn't have considered lead resistance if I hadn't read it mentioned by Joe in another post on another thread. My leads shorted actually came up at .4, though reading was erratic. I also figured there'd be a little more R due to the length of the cable and connectors. The book spec seems to be based on measuring right at the coils on the stator. Good point on engine temp. I'm sure mine heated up a bit during testing. The alternator side of the motor always seems to get hot faster.
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Good point about how the battery gets prepared. I prepared this one myself and followed the directions exactly. I bought it mail-order from Cycle Gear, so yes it could be stale. I'll look for a date stamp this morning. I haven't had any battery problems in years. All of a sudden, I've had two of them die on me within the past year. And one of them even went so far as to spit acid out onto my bike, removing blotches of paint from my swingarm. REally P'd me O. It got me to wondering if maybe there's something going on with my charging system.
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I'm feeling better about my charging system. I disconnected the cable from the regulator and ohmed out the stator from there. The book sez to remove the case cover and measure directly at the coils. I got .7 om on each leg. That which is in excess of the spec is attributable to lead and cable resistance, so I'm probably OK. I also checked between ground and each leg, and got open on each leg. Then I ran the motor and measure the ac on leg, and got what I figure is normal output. About 26 vac at fast choke idle, and rising to around 80 vac at what I estimate is a highway cruising speed. All three legs seem essentially identical. So I'm back to the battery. Tomorrow I'm going to buy a load tester. Seems like a good tool to have, and they are pretty cheap. I've been having enough battery problmes lately, a load tester will take some of the guesswork out of it.
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Well, I'm pretty close to that, then. I just went thru and sanded down the ground connection, as well as the connectors on the starter relay, and both battery terminals and cable connectors. Running at idle I get 13.88v. If I raise rpm up to near cruising speed v will rise to 13.95. I was under the impression that voltage would vary more with rpm than what I'm seeing here. I haven't looked at the stator cable connection yet. Need to pull the middle gear case cover to get at it. Good thing I'm close to an oil change.
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Thanks, Ruff. I had looked at the regulator plug a couple of months ago when I had the lowers off for some other thing I was doing. The plug and the contacts looked all but new, very shiny. No dirt inside. No signs of heating. Still, I may look at it again before I start taking side covers off the motor. I looked at the ground connection on the crankcase right side. I'd never had that off. I was surprised at how much gunk was up under that connector. So that is now sanded off and shiny. Next thing I'm going to look at is the stator plug. I've never been in there.