Harley profits cut in half

[wizard]

http://www.marketwatch.com

[sportssonny1968]

I'm not real smart,:think:but i believe if harley would cut the price of there bikes they would do better.The CEO said it was not in harley's hands on the drop in sales well whose hands is it in?????????????

[YamaDuck]

It's my fault. I admit it. I should throw my money down the toilet and buy inferior quality over priced American made products like Harley's. I also have a Toyota. Don't tell anyone. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a Harley to go with my two Yamaha's if they were priced right.

 

 

[vtwinr]

Harleys are frequently bought by people who become inseparably devoted to the bike no matter what, and built by a manufacturer that goes out of it's way to supply replacement parts on models that tend to stick around. That's partially why the initial purchase price is so heafty. I still believe though that metrics have a quality edge over HD's, but the very fact that so many Harleys keep rolling for decades has to say something for the make. Harley Davidson may be greedy, yes, but junk, never.

[PBJ]

too bad no ones ever figured out how a company can get smaller while the brass at the top are making so much money. In other word howe to keep managements pay aat a level that when times get bad it can be reduced with out causing those managers major financial stress?

[Grey Ghost]

I don't know if I personally would catergorize Harley as greedy. It just makes sense that if you have something that is in that great of demand, you price it accordingly. That is, raise the price until you meet some resistence either by slower sales or from the competition.

 

Obviously, the competition hasn't been too bad for them. Just look around at the next large gathering of bikes and see what's in the majority.

 

I don't ride one and they really don't appeal to me asthetically, but I do admire their ability to market them.

[Snarley Bill]

in harleys defense, i was at a harley showroom last week and they had so many models to choose from of which some i liked and some i did'nt like. it seems like they had a style for everyone. the quality and finish was impecable. the paint jobs and chrome were show quality. i just can't get past the archaic engineering, although they have come a long way in that area. nothing wrong with the v-twin if thats what you like. but lets see some watercooling, overhead cams, 4 valves per cyl., a unit construction engine, and a shaft drive. as expensive as the harley is these should all be standard. get rid of the roller bearing lower end on the motor and go to a high pressure lube system and plain bearings. roller bearings are nice but don't have the longgevity of plain bearings do to corrosion and pitting. i have alot of experience with harley lower ends. rebuilt a few in my day. the price does'nt. seem as out of line as it once did. the bike does have that hand built look and finish. they are a work of visual art. my wing listed for over $20,000, and when you think about it i can almost by 2 cars for that. i think most all bike prices are getting over the top. just my 2 cents. bill

[AmnChode]

Harleys are frequently bought by people who become inseparably devoted to the bike no matter what, and built by a manufacturer that goes out of it's way to supply replacement parts on models that tend to stick around. That's partially why the initial purchase price is so heafty. I still believe though that metrics have a quality edge over HD's, but the very fact that so many Harleys keep rolling for decades has to say something for the make. Harley Davidson may be greedy, yes, but junk, never.

 

Well...you kinda contradicted yourself there. That a) Harley goes out of it's way to supply replacement parts on models that tend to stick around and b) the fact that there are Harleys that keep rolling for decades say something for their quality. That doesn't say anything other than that they will sell you the part to keep it rolling. The question that would need to be asked in this situation is, how often are these needing to be worked on and to what extreme (ie, engine rebuilds)?

[kenw]

800 workers and 300 salaried layed off. Seems to me that if the numbers were reversed and you got rid of more paper pushers and let the workers build the bikes you could lower the price and still make the same profit. If the boat isn't being rowed fast enough, fire some rowers and hire more peole to do a study on why the boat can't go faster! Business at its finest!

[Condor]

Ya know... I don't care what Harley does... or Yamaha does... or any other manufacturer does... New bike sales suck, and folks are going to get laid off when they can't sell to the dealers. Right now the pipe lines are full, and dealer sales are flatter than a pancake. Even if a dealer was lucky enough to work himself into a low inventory position, he sure as 'H' isn't going to load up on new inventory that just sits while he pays flooring every month. Just like the consumer isn't going to stick his neck out and burden himself with a $20K loan on a new bike when the future prospects are so blurry......

[nelsonrl]

GE Earnings down by 47%

 

Toyota considering the first layoff in its history

Governors seek concessions from public employees

 

 

And I seem to remember a story in the news a few days ago that Yamaha is idling its motorcycle production for 10 days because of overstock. Folks, this is not a story about Harley Davidson, its a story about an economy in trouble. People are loosing their jobs, Microsoft just let 5000 people go in their first ever layoff. I admit, I am biased, but I happen to think Harley makes a product that performs very well. The price of an Ultra Classic is not that far from that of a Wing or a BMW. Higher than a Venture, sure, but most touring bikes are.

 

Is Harley greedy? Absolutely, any publicly traded company that isn't greedy and trying to get the most for their share holders is kind of missing the boat so to speak. I suspect not many company presidents or CEO's would last long if they weren't looking to increase shareholder value every day they work.

[paperboy]

Condor,

you hit the nail right on the head! We are headed for a deep ditch as far as the economy is concerned. Most people who would be in the market for a bike are having huge second thoughts, doesn't matter if your a harley fan or a metric fan.

[Rattlesnake]

well I need to throw my two cents worth in as well as I ride an ultra classic .I have a 1999 ultra that has never had a problem with it YET I am sure it will with time .I looked a a new Ultra last week it listed as $19.500 Not bad at all in my book I had looked at the Royal Star in Corpus Christi awhile back and it was over $20k .I see a heck of a lot more old HD's on the road than I do any other brand of bike no matter who made them. I have a 1982 Honda cb900 custom and a 2002 Kawasaki police also a 1982 Yamaha (broke down and fixing to go in junk pile) have had more problems with them than I can shake a stick at . I will stay with the HD's.

[GeorgeS]

Basicly my take is, So many Jobs have been shipped overseas, or taken over by Computer Controlled Machines, or eliminated by computers, what do the pundits expect???

 

No Job, No Money, No Buy Harley !! ( or whatever else sombody might desire )

 

Remember, folks, A piece of real estate is only worth what sombody can afford to pay. If--- no job, --- they can't pay very much !!! Very large area's of Detroit, and other cities are turning into Ghost Towns. For some reason the Drive Bye Media, avoids showing this fact on the 6: OClock News !!

 

Just 7 years ago, the company I worked for had 7000 people in the maintenance department. Now its down to about 1500!!! And they are still flying the same number of Airplanes !!!! About 80 percent of the work I used to do has been replaced by High Technology, and much higher quality equipment. ( Airplanes just don't break as often as they used to ) !!

 

I think its safe to say you can apply this anology to almost all Industries, and business's. 70 to 80 percent of our U.S. jobs have been eliminated, one way or another !!

 

As to Harleys, well in my opinion, NO Motorcycle , is worth $30,000, thats just

Insane !!!

 

I'm open to corrections, hit me with your best shot !!!!

 

I'm off to the Gym !!! Have to do something to keep from going Nuts!!!

[YamaDuck]

I have nothing against Harley's it's a beautiful well made bike. But don't compare the best price you can find on a Harley's with some nut trying to sell a Royal Star for $3,000 dollars over MSRP. I can find you a brand new 08 RSV write now for under $16,000. So lets compare apples to apples. Harley's have come a long way with quality since the days of AMC or however it was that almost ruined Harley. Harley is lucky they survived that and if it were not for their loyal customers they would be out of business right now. Any company in the world would love to have the following that Harley has. Harley has the best marketing I have ever seen. I wish the other motorcycle companies had the same quality of marketing. Harley has the best selection of any dealer and the best after market parts for there machines. Like I said before if they were priced like the Jap bikes I would have one sitting right next to my Yamahas, but they are not. And to be honest with you if they did what it takes to be priced like the Jap bikes there quality would go down.

 

[Condor]

 

Just 7 years ago, the company I worked for had 7000 people in the maintenance department. Now its down to about 1500!!! And they are still flying the same number of Airplanes !!!! About 80 percent of the work I used to do has been replaced by High Technology, and much higher quality equipment. ( Airplanes just don't break as often as they used to ) !!

 

Well that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling about flying any time soon... I was watching FOX News last night, and Jeraldo Rivera had a document saying that same aircraft had a hydralics failure and had to return to the airport, and then just two days later that same plane went swimming in the Hudson. And now no one can locate the pilot??? Ummm????

[cecdoo]

GE Earnings down by 47%

 

Toyota considering the first layoff in its history

Governors seek concessions from public employees

 

 

And I seem to remember a story in the news a few days ago that Yamaha is idling its motorcycle production for 10 days because of overstock. Folks, this is not a story about Harley Davidson, its a story about an economy in trouble. People are loosing their jobs, Microsoft just let 5000 people go in their first ever layoff. I admit, I am biased, but I happen to think Harley makes a product that performs very well. The price of an Ultra Classic is not that far from that of a Wing or a BMW. Higher than a Venture, sure, but most touring bikes are.

 

Is Harley greedy? Absolutely, any publicly traded company that isn't greedy and trying to get the most for their share holders is kind of missing the boat so to speak. I suspect not many company presidents or CEO's would last long if they weren't looking to increase shareholder value every day they work.

 

 

I totally agree, I have been a Harley share holder since 1992, I dont think Harley as a company has made any major mistakes, other than getting sucked into the subprime lending mess everyone else did. Unfortunately in the current economy they aint selling bikes like they use to. Thankfully they built up their dealerships, and are able to cash in on access. and clothing, hopefully service as well. I dont believe this has to do with price or quality, the quality has most definetly improved and folks that want Harleys will pay the price. I chose my Venture because of "Value" I like to ride alot more than I like to tinker, I wanted a dependable bike that looked pretty cool, the price was rite and the 5yr warranty is a big selling point for me, also helps if my feet touch the ground:rotf:Ride whatya like, I hope Harley weathers this mess and survives another 100 years. Craig

[friesman]

Well that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling about flying any time soon... I was watching FOX News last night, and Jeraldo Rivera had a document saying that same aircraft had a hydralics failure and had to return to the airport, and then just two days later that same plane went swimming in the Hudson. And now no one can locate the pilot??? Ummm????

 

Geez its too bad that they couldnt not locate geraldo rivera instead....... :rotfl:

 

 

Brian

[GeorgeS]

Geez its too bad that they couldnt not locate geraldo rivera instead....... :rotfl:

 

 

Brian

 

I heard him talking last nite also. He said if was a compressor Stall on one engine 3 days before.

 

A compressor stall, is not uncommon, could be mechanicsl, could be piloting, but not very likley !!. Over the years when a plane came in with a compressor stall write up, we might find something wrong, and then again, most of the time nothing mechanical would be found.

 

You could think of a compressor stall as just taking into much Air, to Swallow.

In other words the air flow thru the engine, gets backed up. Something like that.

 

But to have Two Engines , Stall, at the same time??? Thats so far out in left field.

 

Also, the passengers saw at least one engine, blow, and burning. That would not equate to a simple compressor stall !!

 

The engines on an A-320, make about 36,000 lb of thrust, more then enough power to keep flying, on one engine. !!! So, something took out Both engines, at almost the same time.

 

Anyway, If the Canada Geese went thru both engines, they will not have any trouble proveing that one way or the other. The Feathers will still be inside the engines, when they tear them down.

[YamaDuck]

It's not just the private companies cutting back. Our government has been cutting back for years. Last time I went into a post office there was one clerk. The line was very long. The postal clerk said the other three clerks were there but were in the back eating lunch. They were ordered to eat lunch by the supervisor. In the good old days there would have been enough clerks to handle the customers and eat lunch.

 

I am a retired air traffic control specialist. I worked for the busiest facility in the world. At the peak staffing in my area we had 76 people. When I took mandatory retirement we had 38 certified controllers and about 8 trainees. Traffic was up from 7,300 aircraft per day to about 9,300 aircraft per day when I left. Technology is a lot better now and allows us to work more traffic with fewer people. You know like a private company laying off three workers and putting in a machine to do their work. But still to make things work they eliminated a lot of rules in order for us to be able to keep up. Everyone use to be on the same pay scale but about 3 years ago the FAA implemented a new lower pay scale for new hires. These changes in my opinion were to lower the operating cost so it would be more attractive to sell it to a private company. So Harley and Microsoft and a lot of other companies are doing what our Federal Government has already done. The biggest difference is the private companies have to make a profit, the Federal Government doesn't.

[ediddy]

Don't think harley is squeaky clean. I go on a popular harley web site 2 or 3 times per week. There are die hard harley riders on there and they are ready to string up harley. For years harley has gouged people and given poor service and their followers are fed up. Last week a guy was furious becauses he said you can go in a dealership and get a dog collar with harley on it but you can't get a part for your bike. One guy said he felt like he was going into a jewelry botique when he went in his dealership. The topic of harley sticking to msrp is also a sore subject. You can go on that site right now and there is a thread about harley refusing to get off the msrp. In may 07 there was an article on msn about harley stock going from $80.00 per share to $59.00 per share. Why? Their sales were down so they lowered the minimum credit score required for financing in order to boost sales but then they were repoing bikes people couldn't afford. Another article in the Wallstreet Journal was posted on the web site that said harely was at a crossroads. The older die hard riders were getting to old to ride and the yuppies fad had disappeared so harley was in trouble. The engineering deptartment wants to get in the 21 century with technology as in a water cooled engine, but the marketing department doesn't want to change because they fear the die hard fans will leave. I was surprised at some harley guys that said the best thing harley could do is get ride of Wille G. There was another article posted about the substandard parts harley had used a few years ago on their bikes. If you think yamaha dealers give poor service you ought to read some of the stories about the poor service of harley dealers. A couple of weeks ago a guy said he took his friend to a dealer to look at used bikes. It was an hour drive. His friend saw an ultra classic that had been taken on trade and worked up a deal with the salesman. The salesman said to come back saturday so they could clean up the bike. The guy waited a whole week before he went back and the bike hadn't been touched. The battery was dead so it wouldn't start. The dealer wouldn't put in a new batter and was going to just charge the old battery. The guy said he told his friend to come on and lets leave, this is pitiful. The guy left and bought a used yamaha venture. There are many many guys on the harley we site that are having to replace the cranshaft. There is a joke on this harely web site that harley makes the crankshafts out of silly putty. One guy said he had a friend that was a dealer and he said there was an engine a few years ago that was having a 60% failure rate but harleystill wouldn't issue a recall. The dealer told his friend if a metric bike had a 2% failure rate they would have a recall. The die hard harley riders don't like the million dollar buildings harley has required their dealers to build that look like botiques. Harley has been heading downhill for a few years. The bad economy has taken them downward quicker.

[GeorgeS]

Do you know which engine that was ??

 

Also the 07 full boat touring models had the Extreme High Oil Temp Issue.

My brother in law bought one, he installed an Oil temp gauge, Oil was hitting about 280 deg F. He added an oil cooler, and some other changes, and got it down to about 230 deg. But thats still pretty HOT for oil.

Also the stock exhaust was so hot for the passenger right leg, his wife could not ride on back seat. He had to also modify exhaust system to get around that problem.

 

But, he loves rideing the bike. He has 3 of them. Jim runs and engine Rebuild shop in Santa Clarita, Ca. So he can deal with the problems, but I sure don't want to.

 

He also told me one day, that the Harley Dealers won't work on their own bikes that are over 5 years old. ??? I'm not sure if this is true in all case's though.

[Sooner Rider]

No one can argue that Harley Davidson has the best complete product marketing that consumers money can buy. You see HD products everywhere you go. From the largest most high end HD dealerships to the smallest gas station gift / souvenir isles. Everything from pencil erasers to leather jackets. I always get a chuckle every time I see some couple climb off an HD completely decked out in HD gear...hats, scarves, tshirts, jackets, rings, boots, helmets, even logo chaps. I understand "pride in your ride" but....really? all that?

 

HD's are nice bikes but not for that kind of money. I guess it all boils down to how much one is willing to spend on feeding an ego. To each his/her own...

 

Ride On!

[ediddy]

Hey GeorgeS,

I don't remember which engine had the high failure rate but I'm going to see if I can find out.

[Ferrantelli]

The economy has or will hurt everyone across the board to some degree or another. The company/people best prepared will weather the storm. The excess fat will be cut and if that fat happens to be too much then the company will go under. Having said that, there's not a HD model new or old that I can not think of at least a dozen other models from other manufacturers in the same class/size/category that will outperform it in every aspects (price, brakes, power, suspension, reliability, etc., etc.,) expect one "EGO". But I must tip my hat to their CEOs and their followers to have created this mysterious aura about their bikes and name brand recognition that has allowed the company to survive as well as flourish with an out dated and inferior product. I for one consider myself a rider/motorcyclist in my 33 years of riding I considered a HD a couple of times but was quickly turned off by the same aura/attitude (we are better than anyone else) I encountered at their dealership, so I have owned 30 or so different motorcycles (non HD) over the years. And to this day I prefer no name brand product that work well and have a great value over "PARADE ATTIRE HD" products.