SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Share #1 Posted October 17, 2011 Here are 2 "mock-up" drawings I did of 4 bikers at an intersection making a left turn. Bike #1 leads out ahead of bike #2 which is then followed by bike #3, etc.... (they aren't side-by-side) Intersection2 shows bike #2 cutting to the inside of the turn. Intersection3 shows bike #2 swinging wide. I feel that the "Intersection3" (swinging wide) example is the correct method because there is little chance of cutting off the path of bike #3 whereas in the first example, bike #3 gets cut off and can be an issue if they are too close to bike #2. Did I explain that clear enuf ? LOL What do ya'll say..?? Intersection2 [ATTACH]61747[/ATTACH] Intersection3 [ATTACH]61748[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmoff1698 Posted October 17, 2011 Share #2 Posted October 17, 2011 I cast one vote for bikes 2 and 4 moving to the left prior to arriving at the intersection forming a single line turning left. Then reforming the stagered formation after the turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I cast one vote for bikes 2 and 4 moving to the left prior to arriving at the intersection forming a single line turning left. Then reforming the stagered formation after the turn. Well, that's a good idea but doesn't answer my question. With my "scenario" each bike is actually behind the one ahead of it... not beside but if the riders aren't sure of which is the right thing to do, then it could result in one rider hitting the other as per Intersection2 scenario .... rider 3 expects that rider 2 will swing wide .... rider 3 pulls out a bit too soon and all of a sudden rider 2 cuts into rider 3's path, thus cutting rider 3 off and possibly resulting in a collision. While I may be wrong, I have always felt that when riding in a group this way, the outside rider should take the turn wide to prevent such an incident from happening .... and same goes for right-hand turns. Edited October 17, 2011 by SilvrT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWa Posted October 17, 2011 Share #4 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) If bike one and two leave at the exact same time and speed, with one on the inside and two on the outside, they will finish the intersection with bike two behind and to the right of bike one. Bikes three and four after a suitable delay will experience the same phenomenon. Thus all of the bikes will finish in a staggered row. Mike P.S. That is the reason when I am riding with a friend whoever is leading takes the inside of the turn at a stop sign. When we take off together the leader finishes the turn in front. Answer; so intersection three appears the most correct path. Edited October 17, 2011 by MikeWa answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyRSTD Posted October 17, 2011 Share #5 Posted October 17, 2011 I think example #3 is correct. The rider should always old his line and do not cut the other riders off in any way. I say keep your line once moving again, but at a safe distance. If not then always give the rider ahead of you plenty of time to do as he or she can, then move back to your original line once the turn is completed. Never leave your line unless agreed to switch with another rider/bike. Fuzzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share #6 Posted October 17, 2011 Doesn't matter how you feel each bike is a moving vehicle and must come to a stop on it's own. You can ride 2 a breast in a lane but NOT through an intersection. Was informed by a COP. Take it for what it's worth and consider the source:puzzled: Again, none of us were riding abreast ... bike one moves out first... then bike 2 .... then bike 3 , etc, etc As per the pic we were staggered and not abreast. As for what the COP said.... I wonder why it is then when we see them riding together, they are almost always abreast of each other, even seen them taking left and right turns in intersections that way .... well, not quite abreast, #2 front wheel might be even with #1 rear wheel but at least they stayed at a "staggered" position.... #1 to the inside and #2 to the outside. And speaking of riding abreast.... isn't that a big NO-NO??? (always has been in my book) unless you're on parade or something similar (hmmmmm maybe the COPS figgure they are always "on parade" LOL) Like you said.... "Take it for what it's worth and consider the source" LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyRSTD Posted October 17, 2011 Share #7 Posted October 17, 2011 Here are 2 "mock-up" drawings I did of 4 bikers at an intersection making a left turn. Bike #1 leads out ahead of bike #2 which is then followed by bike #3, etc.... (they aren't side-by-side) Intersection2 shows bike #2 cutting to the inside of the turn. Intersection3 shows bike #2 swinging wide. I feel that the "Intersection3" (swinging wide) example is the correct method because there is little chance of cutting off the path of bike #3 whereas in the first example, bike #3 gets cut off and can be an issue if they are too close to bike #2. Did I explain that clear enuf ? LOL What do ya'll say..?? Intersection2 [ATTACH]61747[/ATTACH] Intersection3 [ATTACH]61748[/ATTACH] Doesn't matter how you feel each bike is a moving vehicle and must come to a stop on it's own. You can ride 2 a breast in a lane but NOT through an intersection. Was informed by a COP. Take it for what it's worth and consider the source:puzzled: Big G, he is not saying side by side (a breast). You can see this in the top quote. Just wanted to clear that up. I agree, you should not ride, side by side, in a turning intersection. However I have rode side by side down a wide 2 lane with a full size turning lane in the middle with 35 and 45 mile speed zone. Still our intersection turns are made as individual bikes. Giving the rider ahead the time and room he needs. Fuzzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 17, 2011 Share #8 Posted October 17, 2011 I would start my turn and finish the turn in the same 'track'. Start on the inside, finish on the inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted October 17, 2011 I would start my turn and finish the turn in the same 'track'. Start on the inside, finish on the inside Yep... makes sense to me.... stay in your "track" or position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted October 17, 2011 Share #10 Posted October 17, 2011 Wonder what option 1 was...... I prefer the intersection 3 paths. BTW, riding a breast is not the same thing as riding abreast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaggletooth Posted October 17, 2011 Share #11 Posted October 17, 2011 I'd say #3 is my choice. The purpose of a staggered formation is to give each rider room and keep bikes from crossing or entering another riders path. This allows each rider to hold his line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamamike Posted October 17, 2011 Share #12 Posted October 17, 2011 While riding abreast may not be illegal in some areas...it's not safe. Riding in a group, you should always ride staggered. It's fine to stop at an intersection side by side (abreast) but bikes should spread out into staggered formation when they start through the intersection and beyond. Although I agree that the outside bike should go wide in the turn, that rider should have the room to move in if required to avoid any obstacles like (loose gravel). Even while riding along a straight road, each rider "owns" that section of the lane in case an emergency maneuver is required. IMHO Ride safe, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uechi kid Posted October 17, 2011 Share #13 Posted October 17, 2011 Intersection #3. If you're going to ride in staggered formation, you should maintain your lane position even in turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panjandrum Posted October 17, 2011 Share #14 Posted October 17, 2011 In a perfect world with experienced riders, maintaininng lane position in a staggered formation may be a good idea. HOWEVER, it ain't a perfect world, and the group ride protocols and practices I try to promote are designed for comfort and safety. I agree with Yamamike, you own the whole lane, and you are entitled to use it all, even when riding in a staggered group formation. At an intersection, if I am in the right path turning right, I will not start to move until the rear wheel of the bike ahead is clear of my front wheel. Similarly if I am in left path turning left. I am much more comfortable if the bike behind me follows the same practice... just in case they turn wide and take out my back wheel. The staggered formation is probably the safest way for a group of riders to travel together. Hower, in the twisties, I use ALL my lane to get maximum view around the corner, turn in to cut the apex, and accelerate out. I am much more concerned about looking out for hazards around the corner or providing improved alternatives in case of something (boulder, pot-hole, dead skunk) is in my track, than I am about maintaining a neat, stagger formation. The cops who ride side by side are professionals, who are MUCH better riders than most of the amateurs you will find in a group on a Sunday ride. Good discussion. Thanks, Rick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted October 17, 2011 Share #15 Posted October 17, 2011 Ehhhh, just make 3 rights instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share #16 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) While riding abreast may not be illegal in some areas...it's not safe. Riding in a group, you should always ride staggered. It's fine to stop at an intersection side by side (abreast) but bikes should spread out into staggered formation when they start through the intersection and beyond. Although I agree that the outside bike should go wide in the turn, that rider should have the room to move in if required to avoid any obstacles like (loose gravel). Even while riding along a straight road, each rider "owns" that section of the lane in case an emergency maneuver is required. IMHO Ride safe, Mike Exactly ! However, this "room to move if required" should be excercised "when required" and not immediately after proceeding from the stop. Consider this ... instead of turning, the group is going straight. Everyone is stopped and staggered, maybe even side-by-side. We all know our "position" (who goes first, then second, etc) so... rider 1 starts out.... then rider 2 (remember, rider 2 is to the right of the lane) and then rider 3 starts out (to the left of rider 2 but behind as in front wheel is back, behind rider 2's rear wheel) but rider 3 might have started a bit faster while at the same time rider 2 slowed and moved to the left .... all of a sudden, both rider 2 and rider 3 are in a near collision situation causing rider 3 to have to take evasive maneuvers. Now, if rider 2 had stayed in their track, nothing would have happened. Now, put this "straight" scenario into a 90 degree Left turn situation and think about how much more of an evasive maneuver is necessary by rider 3. True, rider 2 might have had to avoid some obstacle on the road but that is not the point of this. True, rider 3 should have held off a little longer before proceeding .... but oftentimes when in a group, we all like to stay together and as a group, we like to all get thru the intersection ... together. To hold back too much only opens a hole where some cages are sure to take advantage of LOL. fwiw ... a "group" in this case constitutes 5 or 6 bikes. This is all theoretical but also food for some serious thought. Edited October 17, 2011 by SilvrT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uechi kid Posted October 17, 2011 Share #17 Posted October 17, 2011 I contend that while riding in staggered formation you are really only entitled to half the lane, except in an emergency. That's why maintaining a minimum of two seconds between bikes is so important. A three second gap would be much better but it's hard to get everyone to keep that spacing. As far as riding in the twisties, single file is the only way to go, and I don't mean follow the leader. I mean ride your own ride. Take the whole lane, ride the path through the turns that you are most comfortable with. You don't have to follow the path of the bike in front of you. Spacing is even more important in the twisties because many times you can't see very far around the turn. If a bike in front of you loses it and you are too close, you might not have time to react. Part of every one of my ride briefings deals with spacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share #18 Posted October 17, 2011 If a bike in front of you loses it and you are too close, you might not have time to react. Part of every one of my ride briefings deals with spacing. Good point ... one which I need to practise more as I do think that I oftentimes ride (and even drive my cage) too close to the person in front of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friesman Posted October 17, 2011 Share #19 Posted October 17, 2011 I am not gonna say whats right or not, but here is the way we ride in our local 042 chapter of the CMC. The animations are borrowed from the sunset hog group, but everyone in our chapter has seen it and rides it. i dont think the method is as important as having absolutely everyone thinking the same before you leave. PS the animation at the bottom of the page is the one that describes your situation. http://www.sunsethog.com/groupRiding.html Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted October 17, 2011 I am not gonna say whats right or not, but here is the way we ride in our local 042 chapter of the CMC. The animations are borrowed from the sunset hog group, but everyone in our chapter has seen it and rides it. i dont think the method is as important as having absolutely everyone thinking the same before you leave. PS the animation at the bottom of the page is the one that describes your situation. http://www.sunsethog.com/groupRiding.html Brian Good one Brian ... I seen that before somewhere ... was probably posted here by somebody. Good point you make too "everyone thinking the same", however, that sometimes covers a lot of "territory" and some things are inevitable to be left out else we'd be talking a lot and not riding LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted October 17, 2011 Share #21 Posted October 17, 2011 So now my 2 cents worth: We ride staggered because that gives us the closest formation with the most safety. It keeps the group together so as to form one unit and so discourage others from injecting themselves into our group and so causing havoc. It also gives us room, if necessary for ANY reason to use the track or part of the track that we are presently not using. It's good to keep this in mind, that a rider OWNS that part of the road and we let him have it, it's his, he needs to know that!!!!! As we come to an intersection the same hold true. As we may have all experienced somewhere, turns don't always turn out exactly as we have them planned and so we may have to adjust in the corner. If we don't allow the rider his space, things can get a little dicey, but sticking to the rule that the whole lane is his, comfort and respect are present. So we need to examine our starting position and time. The bike ahead of us, needs to stay ahead of us and that is the following bikers' responsibility. So much for left turns. On right turns, it becomes more important, for the scoot on the inside track could find that the turn becomes much too tight for the way he has it set up,, so he will need the room to compensate. So keep your distance and your position. One rule must prevail, so I say: keep your formation and relax, you don't need to rush, after all, we are riding,,,and if your are in a hurry, leave your bike at home,,,, enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV1100SE Posted October 17, 2011 Share #22 Posted October 17, 2011 ...The animations are borrowed from the sunset hog group, but everyone in our chapter has seen it and rides it. ....http://www.sunsethog.com/groupRiding.html Pretty good for showing how its done... pretty much ties together with what everyone was saying. Comments on : - when you have an odd number of riders... tail stays in track of leader and two seconds behind the person directly in front of them - when you have two lanes (like an Interstate)... when in the right lane the leader is in the left track of the lane but in the left lane should the leader be on the left track or right track? My thinking is the leader should be in the right track to block cars cutting over and for the most visibility. When riding solo you'd be in the right track. Tail should also be in the right track of the left lane for protection and safety. - when three lanes on Interstate... right lane and centre lane the leader is in the left track of the lane. Fast lane the leader takes the right track (with tail in the same track as the leader) - riders with trailers (or trikes)... give 'em lots of space... basically the full lane with a two second gap to the next rider. They give two seconds in front as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friesman Posted October 17, 2011 Share #23 Posted October 17, 2011 Pretty good for showing how its done... pretty much ties together with what everyone was saying. Comments on : - when you have an odd number of riders... tail stays in track of leader and two seconds behind the person directly in front of them The Tailgunner usually stays in left track 2 secs back of pack, but depending on traffic coming up from rear passing group, will move to block the side of the lane closest to the vehicle passing. - when you have two lanes (like an Interstate)... when in the right lane the leader is in the left track of the lane but in the left lane should the leader be on the left track or right track? My thinking is the leader should be in the right track to block cars cutting over and for the most visibility. When riding solo you'd be in the right track. Tail should also be in the right track of the left lane for protection and safety. To avoid confusion the lead bike is always in left track of lane and everyone alternates back about 1 second and a half. Youre right a solo bike should be in a blocking position, but we dont want anyone in the wrong spot so group riding is handled the same all the time. - when three lanes on Interstate... right lane and centre lane the leader is in the left track of the lane. Fast lane the leader takes the right track (with tail in the same track as the leader) as above always in left track of the lane - riders with trailers (or trikes)... give 'em lots of space... basically the full lane with a two second gap to the next rider. They give two seconds in front as well. yep!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV1100SE Posted October 18, 2011 Share #24 Posted October 18, 2011 yep!! This is a good way to get discussion and let everyone know how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickinfred Posted October 18, 2011 Share #25 Posted October 18, 2011 Wonder what option 1 was...... I prefer the intersection 3 paths. BTW, riding a breast is not the same thing as riding abreast. About the only difference I see.....is a space between a and b????:whistling:........Fuzzy....whats he talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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