Hot water heater help

[Flyinfool]

I am looking to get a direct vent type gas hot water heater.

Most likely a 50 gallon.

Does anyone here know what brands or features I should look for, or steer clear of?

 

This is kind of what I am looking for.

 

My house needs a new roof and the 30 year old gas hot water heater is the only thing using the chimney, so if I get a direct vent water heater then I can have the crumbling chimney taken down to below the roof line at the time they do the roof and save the cost of rebuilding the chimney or later patching the new roof.

 

I am wide open for comments, suggestions or even snide remarks.

[Trader]

Have you considered a "tankless" on-demand hot water heater?

 

The whole idea behind them is that it heats the hot water when you need it...rather than maintaining a whole tankfull of hot water 24/7.

 

It is supposed to save a LOT of energy.

 

The only downfall is if your supply water is very cold it will reduce the flow rate.

 

All you have to do is measure the cold water temperature from your taps, and determine how many degrees you need to increase the temperature...then determine what woudl be the maximum flow per min. (a typical shower is 2.5 gal. per min)

 

A higher flow rate means lower temp increase...LOTS of info available online.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

If you have a smaller family, 4 or less people, why not look into an electric water heater? Longer life, lower stand-by losses, silent operation, no exposed flames, and no vent needed. Running a 240v line to the new tank is not that large of an undertaking, and you will get rid of that ugly vent, have no wasted heat running up a chimney, and electric water heaters can easily be turned off and then on for vacations and such.

 

Of course, many will recommend the tankless water heaters, (propane, gas or electric) but todays tank-type electric water heaters are pretty efficient, assuming you dont have a large family.

 

The downsides to the tankless are that the installation costs can be pretty high, since you have to have sufficient gas or electric service to the unit. If you dont have a large family, the ROI (return on investment) will be a fairly long time for a tankless. If you DO have a large family, sometimes multiple faucets running will noticeably decrease the available hot water temperature.

 

I switched to standard tank-type electric water heating many years ago. I like them so well, I now run TWO of them in my house, one for the kitchen and laundry, and the other feeds the bathroom lavatory and tub/shower.

 

NO waiting for hot water, ever! In my area we get an electric rate discount for using an electric water heater, and another discount for using electric heating, (heatpump) so the cost is very reasonable. ( I estimate the discount at about $40 a month) In fact, I spend less now than when I had gas and had to pay the natural gas service fee all year even when I wasn't using ANY gas at all in the summer!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2010 by tx2sturgis

[Gary N.]

Funny thing how electricity and gas prices vary so much around the countries. The government here is switching over to wind and solar power and getting off of coal. They just installed "Smart Meters" so they can keep track of the time of day you use the most electricity and charge you more for peek time use. We have to run electric appliances after 7:00 pm to get the lowest rates. So electric heat and hot water and clothes driers are not the way to go here. BTW the price of natural gas has dropped here, I think around 24% in the last couple of years or so. Probably just a ploy to get you hooked so they can raise the price back up again.

 

I like the idea behind the on demand hot water units but the up front cost is a little high.

Depending on where in your house the water heater will be located, be aware that the noise from the exhaust fan might bother you. My in-laws had one a few years ago and it was in a room right off of the kitchen and the noise about drove them nuts. They ended up taking it out and puting a regular vent through the roof one back in.

[Brake Pad]

The homes here In South Florida have a recovery unit, that allows hot water from the a/c to re route back to the hot water heater tank. one shower in the morning, about 4 minutes of hot water, one at night, again 4 minute shower. we NEVER turn on the hot water heater tank. and we do the laundry with cold water. our monthely electric bills, hangs around 33.00 to 45.00 a month

[Trader]

our monthely electric bills, hangs around 33.00 to 45.00 a month

 

 

Try $150 or more per month...and my home is only about 1000 sq ft!

[Blackjack]

Tankless is great, but expensive up front. Most households do not need hot water all day, so my personal preference is an electric unit to which you add a timer that allows you to turn it on and off ahead of when you need actually need it.

 

Habib the Energy-Conserving

[Flyinfool]

I looked into the tank less heaters and our water gets to just barely above freezing in the winter. Every tank less salesman that I talked to said that tank less in not for me. If the salesman tells me to not buy their product because I will not be happy, I will always listen to that advice.

 

Electric is not an option, it the A/C and water heater tried to run at the same time it would pop my 60A main breaker. Here gas hot water is a lot cheaper than electric.

 

The water heater is in an unfinished basement so the sound of the fan will not be an issue.

[Midrsv]

I'm going to be in the market soon for a water heater as well. Mine will be a natural gas unit. I've pretty much ruled out the tankless type. With tankless you have there is a few seconds of cold water sandwiched between the hot when people shower back to back. That's a showstopper in our house. I'm also considering the "condensing" water heaters but due to the higher cost I'm not sure you can get a decent return on investment with it. That will probably lead me back to a 75 gallon tank type.

 

Dennis

[Marcarl]

We got us a demand water heater last year when we did our renovations on our new to us house. It saves room, (stuck it on the wall) but it does take gas. You never run out of hot water, but the temp does change if you use water elsewhere during your shower. At first we weren't too pleaseed with it, but now that we're used to it and can see the differnce in our gas bill,,,, I'll put one in my next house,,,,,, but I would get the one that has a small tank inside, that way you get hot water quicker and more consistent. Ours is in the basement bathroom and I can't say that it makes any bothersome noise.

[Venturous Randy]

I am in the Engineering Lab at A O Smith and we produce the waterheater you have pictured. Obviously, I am a little biased and feel ours are the best. Are you sure you need a direct vent type water heater and not just a regular gas?

RandyA

[RandyR]

Most water heaters do not vent thru a masonry chimney. A vent pipe can be run up thru the roof independent of any fireplace chimney. The type with a blower in the vent allows the vent pipe to be run sideways and out an exterior wall.

 

So, in either case, you can get rid of a crumbling chimney, and I have presumed the term 'crumbling' must refer to a fireplace chimney. Are you sure that is where the old water heater is venting? I would call that unusual. Or does crumbling refer to a deteriorating metal vent pipe?

[Flyinfool]

Most water heaters do not vent thru a masonry chimney. A vent pipe can be run up thru the roof independent of any fireplace chimney. The type with a blower in the vent allows the vent pipe to be run sideways and out an exterior wall.

 

So, in either case, you can get rid of a crumbling chimney, and I have presumed the term 'crumbling' must refer to a fireplace chimney. Are you sure that is where the old water heater is venting? I would call that unusual. Or does crumbling refer to a deteriorating metal vent pipe?

 

Crumbling refers to the 118 year old masonry chimney that needs a top to bottom rebuild, I prefer removal since I could really use the space the the chimney takes up.

Yes the current one vents through the same flue that the furnace and wood burners used to use. The house was built in 1892 so original heat was a wood/coal burner in each room. The hot water heater is in the basement of a 2 story house. There is no good place to run a new flue through two floors and a tall attic (about 30 feet vertical) to get it out the roof, that is why I was looking at the direct vent type.

[Brake Pad]

Try $150 or more per month...and my home is only about 1000 sq ft!

The rest of the monies I safe, we take rides to the Ice cream stand:ice_awesome-vi46644

[Steve S]

If you decide to stay with gas, you could run a new "chimney" using a 3" metal, double wall, vent pipe out the roof. This has been used for years with very little, or no, problems at all. The 3 inch vent pipe is inexpensive and lasts 20 to 30 years. I have installed it myself when I added a utility room and relocated the gas hot water heater.

 

There are also unvented gas heaters available. The best source of info is often times the local gas company.

[Steve S]

 

There are great unvented gas heaters available. The best source of info is often times the local gas company.

I just read your last post about not being able to go out the roof and had a thought. My sister has a gas heater that is installed in the basement, then has a small vent on the side of the house just under the first floor. If you have the room above ground level this might be an option..

Edited October 15, 2010 by Steve S

[RandyR]

I have a side vent on my gas furnace. It hasn't given me any trouble.

[straycatt]

OK, I'm going to offer a few opinions as a Plumber since 1980, a Master Plumber since 1985 and a Plumbing/Mechanical Inspector since 1999.

I'm not going to write a book right off, but I will answer any questions that you have.

 

First of all, I don't like tankless water heaters. They're finicky. Yes they put out hot water forever, but they do it only under certain flow rates. The only real advantage to them is that you don't have 40 or 50 gallons of hot water sitting around 24/7 getting bored. The but is, that as long as your tank style water heater is in a heated area of your home you really don't lose that much heat thru the tank, which negates the main benefit of a tankless.

 

TTW (Thru The Wall) vent water heaters are a good way to go for those that can't get a "B Vent" up thru the interier of their house. The down side is that every time your TTW wears out your going to have to spend the big dollars on another TTW, instead of putting up the B Vent one time and then buying a less expensive conventional vent heater whe the old one goes bad. No, you don't HAVE to have a masonry chimney to run the B Vent in, but you do need a pretty straight shot up and enough room for the vent and 6" of clearance around it and then it has to be framed off and closed from the living space.

 

The good side is that TTW heaters are more efficient (read, use less gas) than conventional vent style units. If you're on natural gas it is probably going to be cheaper than electric. If you have LP, you may be better off with electric. This will of course depend to a large degree on where in the country that you're located.

 

Lochinvar, AO Smith, and Bradford White are the premier water heater companies in my area. They are pretty much the standard of the industry, and you wouldn't go wrong with any of them.

There are several things to consider when shopping water heaters, depending upon what you need your heater to do. Generally a 40 gallon tank is the norm but this can go up or down according to your household needs. Look at "first hour ratings". Do you use large quantities of water in a short amount of time? Then you'll want a larger first hour rating. If you use lesser amounts of hot water spread out over a longer time period you can likely get by with a lower first hour rating. A very high first hour demand may force you to go to a 50 gallon tank, which equals more dollars.

You don't want to buy substantially more or less water heater than you need.

 

I'm sure there are some things I left out, but that should get you thinking for a while.

[Flyinfool]

That is a lot of good info there.

 

What I was worried about with a B vent is that it can not be a straight shot all of the way up.

From where the water heater needs to be located it will be 8-10 feet from the only place that can go up, and there will have to be an offset to the side of about 18 inches when it transitions from the first floor to the second floor.

Is that feasible?

 

I was looking at the 50 gallon, because when I remodel the bathroom the shower will have multiple shower heads and I/we do not do quick showers. The heater will be in heated space so it will not take that much extra energy to keep it hot.

[straycatt]

That is a lot of good info there.

 

What I was worried about with a B vent is that it can not be a straight shot all of the way up.

From where the water heater needs to be located it will be 8-10 feet from the only place that can go up, and there will have to be an offset to the side of about 18 inches when it transitions from the first floor to the second floor.

Is that feasible?

 

 

 

The 8'-10' offset in the the same room as the heater is possible under certain cicumstances, according to the Mechanical Code.

 

The offset between floors is most likely NOT possible as you are not going to be able to meet the requirements of the Code for clearance to combustables for horizontal vent pipe.

[Marcarl]

We had a B vent for years and last year went to the demand heater. Can't say anything for durability, but the warranty is 1 years on soft water. It runs very quite, it hangs on the wall about our toilette downstairs, and when I was using the facilities it came on, but I continued to talk through the door to Marca,, yes it's not noisy. Without the small tank though, it does take a bit of water to get HOT water, and in my opinion, it saves a lot of gas.

Last year I could compare our gas usage. Our former house, 3500 sq ft heated to 50 degrees and no occupants, but the water heater stayed on, to our new place 1400 sq ft, with my shop 750 sq ft, total 2100 sq ft with a high efficiency furnace and the demand heater. It was cheaper by $15 month at our new place. I credit the difference mostly to the water heater.

JMHO

Carl

[Leland]

You could use one of these with any standard gas water heater.

 

 

http://www.tjernlund.com/gassidewall.htm

[davecb]

There is no such thing as a hot water heater......Why would you want to heat water if it's already hot??? :missingtooth:

[wes0778]

Before considering electric, how dependable is your electric service? Ours has gotten better, but still goes out occasionally. I chose gas water heater, furnace, stove and dryer, for economy, but also so I needed a lot smaller standby generator. It has been a while ago, but last ice storm we were on the generator for 3 days, but had lights, heat and hot water.

All on a 7500 watt whole house generator.

[wes0778]

There is no such thing as a hot water heater......Why would you want to heat water if it's already hot??? :missingtooth:

Ya beat me to it :stirthepot::stirthepot::rotfl::rotfl: