igya Posted July 23, 2008 Share #1 Posted July 23, 2008 I've noticed a LOT of concern for the soft thrust split washer on 2nd gear (and rightly so). Rather than take a chance on wasting a motor, why couldn't we just skip 2nd (except when in a tight) since there's power to spare? I realize that it takes a lot of the fun out of riding, but replacing the motor isn't much fun either. Just a thought....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEIslander Posted July 23, 2008 Share #2 Posted July 23, 2008 The washer is on the end of the main transmission shaft and is held in tension by a large spring. I don't think the use of 2nd gear affects the wear of this washer but 2nd gear is the first thing to go when the washer wears due to the spacing of gears and dogs in the tranny. Its only the 83,84 and early 85's that have this potential problem but you might as well enjoy all the power in every gear while it lasts. (my 2nd gear started to jump at around 50,000 miles. If you're concerned about this its a nice winter project to replace the washers and there is lots of information on here to help. Good Luck:thumbsup2: I just checked your profile and see you have an 85. The cutoff serial number for this soft washer is posted here somewhere and you can compare it to your bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igya Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted July 23, 2008 The washer is on the end of the main transmission shaft and is held in tension by a large spring. I don't think the use of 2nd gear affects the wear of this washer but 2nd gear is the first thing to go when the washer wears due to the spacing of gears and dogs in the tranny. Its only the 83,84 and early 85's that have this potential problem but you might as well enjoy all the power in every gear while it lasts. (my 2nd gear started to jump at around 50,000 miles. If you're concerned about this its a nice winter project to replace the washers and there is lots of information on here to help. Good Luck:thumbsup2: I just checked your profile and see you have an 85. The cutoff serial number for this soft washer is posted here somewhere and you can compare it to your bike. Yep, that's me. VERY early '85 with the soft serial number. I guess I'll just sell this thing and get a 1986 or better. The cut-off ser # ends in 1413 and mine is lower. Hey, I appreciate the info. What you say makes sense. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 23, 2008 Share #4 Posted July 23, 2008 I'll take it off your hands for 200 bucks. I know how you don't like to have "junk" sittin' around!!! LOL Dan PS- it'll take me a week and 100 bucks in parts and it'll be fixed!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big dude Posted July 25, 2008 Share #5 Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) the 2nd gear thing i've got going on also 86 vr. it's like a false neutral right? somtimes hard to find when hot. Edited July 25, 2008 by big dude spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1BigDog Posted July 25, 2008 Share #6 Posted July 25, 2008 I used to pass off my 83 as a rare 4 speed model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 26, 2008 Share #7 Posted July 26, 2008 the 2nd gear thing i've got going on also 86 vr. it's like a false neutral right? somtimes hard to find when hot. Oil change with the right oil will probably fix that, we'll talk about it over breakfast. Dan Hey, you're not riding that black 86 I talked to last month at Zionsville and 79th st. are you? your daughter van was broke down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted July 26, 2008 Share #8 Posted July 26, 2008 Is it possible to change the washer without splitting the engine? If it is done before the gear starts to slip then I'm assuming the washer is all that needs to be replaced.. Is that true? Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBJ Posted July 26, 2008 Share #9 Posted July 26, 2008 Is it possible to change the washer without splitting the engine? If it is done before the gear starts to slip then I'm assuming the washer is all that needs to be replaced.. Is that true? Wayne Yes but to get to the washer the engine has to be pulled and flipped over to get to the shaft. One of the other first gen members has a picture profile of the process. Thats why the dealers want a thousand bucks for the job. The part itself cost next to nothing comparatively. But the engine is powerful enough that you don't need 2nd. Also the bike is so good that its worth the money to fix compared to buying a New ST1300, FJR1300 or new Concours 1400. Which in my opinion were johnny come latelys that were built to compete with the 1st Gens sporting abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 26, 2008 Share #10 Posted July 26, 2008 How are you going to push the pinion gear back to get the thrust washer and split clip off of the shaft without removing it? IMHO, you need to pull the bottom off to get in there to do it. Would be interested to know. By the way, you can pull the left rear cover off the motor to inspect the split clip to see how much wear there is on it. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igya Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share #11 Posted July 26, 2008 How are you going to push the pinion gear back to get the thrust washer and split clip off of the shaft without removing it? IMHO, you need to pull the bottom off to get in there to do it. Would be interested to know. By the way, you can pull the left rear cover off the motor to inspect the split clip to see how much wear there is on it. Dan How would you know how much wear is left? And, how would you be able to measure the washer? Also, I wonder why more people wouldn't do that rather than wait for certain disaster??? I'm not being facetious, I'd really like to know because I'm also living on borrowed time and would like to prevent bending shifting forks and shafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 26, 2008 Share #12 Posted July 26, 2008 The split clip is visible right on the end of the pinion shaft, if I remember correctly. You should be able to see the clip that holds it all together. There will be some wear evident right where the split clip is in the groove of the driven axle. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 26, 2008 Share #13 Posted July 26, 2008 Look under VR Tech, 1st gen tech library, towards the bottom you will see "Second gear repair". Click on this link and read up. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted July 26, 2008 Share #14 Posted July 26, 2008 I'd say it is absolutely necessary !! Because ... You will have a real big and long lasting Grin when you're able to wind that Beast up in 2nd to the Redline. That's worth a Lot of Effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1bummer Posted July 26, 2008 Share #15 Posted July 26, 2008 Is it possible to change the washer without splitting the engine? If it is done before the gear starts to slip then I'm assuming the washer is all that needs to be replaced.. Is that true? Wayne I've stared at the same thing for hours and wondered the same thing. If only there was a threaded hole in the end of the shaft to get some sort of tool on it and enough slack to pull it out to slip the clips out. Hmmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted July 26, 2008 Share #16 Posted July 26, 2008 I really like my bike. I also really like 2nd gear. I use it on almost every corner in town. My intention is to change the washer as a winter project this coming winter. So far the thing has not been a problem and I have 68,000 Kms (42,000 miles). I'm thinking I can just change the washer. I was really hoping to not have to take the whole engine apart but if that is what I have to do then so be it. I really don't intend to wait or leave it any longer than that. Good thing winters are fairly long here in Ontario. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted July 26, 2008 Share #17 Posted July 26, 2008 I've stared at the same thing for hours and wondered the same thing. If only there was a threaded hole in the end of the shaft to get some sort of tool on it and enough slack to pull it out to slip the clips out. Hmmmmm... You would have to pull the whole Shaft with all Bearings and Gears installed through the Spring loaded angled Gear. That ain't gonna happen without damaging something inside the Tranny. Even if you could manage this, there are Pins on the outer Races of the Bearings, i'm not positive of they will find their Way back to where they belong. But even if this would work out, the Dogs on the Gears still will be worn and without undercutting they will slip out under Load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igya Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share #18 Posted July 26, 2008 You would have to pull the whole Shaft with all Bearings and Gears installed through the Spring loaded angled Gear. That ain't gonna happen without damaging something inside the Tranny. Even if you could manage this, there are Pins on the outer Races of the Bearings, i'm not positive of they will find their Way back to where they belong. But even if this would work out, the Dogs on the Gears still will be worn and without undercutting they will slip out under Load. When you say "undercutting", are you talking about shaving .001" or .002" off the tip of the dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted July 27, 2008 Share #19 Posted July 27, 2008 Undercutting means you shave some Metal off below the Tips of the Dogs AND their Opposites where they engage to in the other Gear. This creates a Ramp Profile, the Meshing of the Dogs ensures that the Gear stays in Place under load, because the Power is forcing the Dogs into the other Gear instead of the Power is forcing the Dogs out of Place because the're only held in Place by the Shift Fork, which is partly misplaced because of the worn C-Clips on the Tranny Shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 27, 2008 Share #20 Posted July 27, 2008 I have a posting in here about how I did my gears. Used a drill press vise with changeable angle and a 1/4" dremel grind tip in my drill press. Using the vise allows you to duplicate the same angle on the dogs of the 5th gear and the slots on the 2nd gear. On inspecting the clip itself, when you look at the end of the driven shaft (behind left rear cover) you will see the split clip that goes into the groove of the shaft holding everything in. The metal they made this out of was too soft, and wears down, allowing the shaft to move towards the clutch. You can then tell how much it's worn by looking right at the groove and seeing shiny metal. Only a fraction of an inch will allow the dogs on the 5th gear to move away from the slots on 2nd gear, letting them slip out of the slots and "ratchet" around to the next slot under load. Here's a couple of pics from my repair. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igya Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share #21 Posted July 28, 2008 Undercutting means you shave some Metal off below the Tips of the Dogs AND their Opposites where they engage to in the other Gear. This creates a Ramp Profile, the Meshing of the Dogs ensures that the Gear stays in Place under load, because the Power is forcing the Dogs into the other Gear instead of the Power is forcing the Dogs out of Place because the're only held in Place by the Shift Fork, which is partly misplaced because of the worn C-Clips on the Tranny Shaft. I've got ya man! I love it! I've learned more about Ventures in one week "talking" to you guys than I would have taking 2 semisters in HOW TO FIX ENGINES 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted July 28, 2008 Share #22 Posted July 28, 2008 Been there, done that, still tryin' to design the t-shirt!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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