Not MC, but fun for the gearheads, Surface Grinder build.

[Flyinfool]

I thought this might be fun for some of the more mechanically inclined / gear heads that are in this group.

 

I have a Brown and Sharp #2B Surface Grinder with a 6 X 18 Magnetic Chuck, that I acquired back in 2012. Some research of the Serial No. shows that it was likely built around 1904 to 1910. It was originally belt drive powered, at some point in its history it had an electric spindle added and all of the belt drive parts removed. Of course it is all manual control for everything.

Here is the thread from when I got it. https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?70813-My-new-to-me-toy

 

Since I had a Pace Maker installed, One of the explicit things in the manual under things to avoid is a surface grinder with magnetic chuck. SO I am going to add some stepper motors to convert this thing to an auto feeder. One stepper will run the table back and forth and the other will advance the wheel across the part. and they will need to work together to make the moves at the correct times in relation to each other. It will not be CNC controlled but it will also not be far from it if I ever decide to go that route in the future. By making all of the motions automatic and electronically controlled I can start it up and then move a safe for my PM distance away to watch the sparks fly.

 

As every project that I dive into this will also be fairly slow for progress. I have no clue what I am doing at this point, I have never played with stepper motors and / or their controllers. So I am proceeding slowly so as not to waste a lot of preciously scarce funds on parts that will not work.

I have found a forum for Hobby Machinists that has a very good group of people that are as helpful as those on this forum, Even though I am a newbie on that forum someone sent me a box of 6 stepper motors for just the cost of shipping. I think that these freebies may be just enough power to run this machine. if not they are the basic size needed and I would just have to get the next bigger size (longer) with the same mountings so all my brackets would still be good. I just need to come up with all of the other needed controllers, drivers, and power supplies, and then figure out how to mount the steppers on the machine and connect them to the hand cranks that are on the machine. So at the beginning there is a lot of just staring at things and thinking. Not real exiting for a forum, but I will try.

 

So far I now have in my grubby little mitts the motors, the power supplies, and USPS still has my controller out for ransom (I hate waiting for toys/parts) I only ordered one controller because I am not sure that I can modify it enough to do what I want it to do. This controller will be the one to run the table back and forth. I will need a bigger and fancier programmable controller for the traverse. I am going to do the table drive first. I have finally picked out the driver that I will use. it has a range that will be fine for these small motors but still have the oomph in case I need to go to a bigger motor. I will order them later this week.

 

OK this is long, so I will take a break for more staring and thinking.......

[slowrollwv]

Jeff we had the same grinder that you have in the department I worked in. We also had a larger one it the machine shop that run automatic like you are trying to do with yours. Good luck and with your endeavor to make it work.

[Sylvester]

Just wonderin' what ya gonna build witdat? RC aiplnes don't need dat...I think.

 

[cowpuc]

WOWZY WOW WOW WOW = how cool is that !!!!! I can hear the "zip, zip, zip, zip" sounds of valve shims being ground and that wonderful music of "click, click, click" as the bed indexes brother!! Funny thing that can hear all that without the inticement of surface grinder project PICTURES though ...

 

WOWZY WOW WOW WOW Jeff,, now you can sharpen your own end mills :cool10:!!!

 

So,, did you roll that heavy little sucker down the stairs into the basement or did you leave it out in the shed by the White Washer so I can play with it when I stop to stuff rags in those nozzles?

GLAD TO HEAR ALL IS WELL ON THE NEW TUNER BROTHER and congrats on the surface grinder!!

[Marcarl]

Just wonderin' what ya gonna build witdat? RC aiplnes don't need dat...I think.

 

 

Dat super dooper sno-maker needs some fine tuning, flakes were too large for Puc, so now the flakes can be made smaller,,, maybe?

[Flyinfool]

So,, did you roll that heavy little sucker down the stairs into the basement or did you leave it out in the shed by the White Washer so I can play with it when I stop to stuff rags in those nozzles?

 

I do have an anti rag filter built into the nozzles. when they get plugged up it does not reduce the snow production, the pressure just builds untill it finally lets go and you get a big dump that comes really fast and furious, as opposed to the gentle dusting that would have sent. Ya might be shootin yer own foot there Puc.

 

You know that I have told ya that you can swim over here and play any time you want. Yes it is in the basement. Compared to moving the 3400 lb mill into the basement, the 1500 lbs of grinder was easy.

 

There is really nothing to take pics of just yet. There are pics of the machine in the other thread that I referenced in the first post for those that do not know what a surface grinder is. I did get the first controller in last night, BUT it was shipped in a padded envelope and got crushed in route. It is now on its way back to Amazon and a new one should be on its way here.

 

Dat super dooper sno-maker needs some fine tuning, flakes were too large for Puc, so now the flakes can be made smaller,,, maybe?

 

Smaller flakes but a LOT more of them.........

 

 

Just wonderin' what ya gonna build witdat? RC aiplnes don't need dat...I think.

 

 

I do not think that I have used it for any airplane parts as of yet. But when I did my valve job I ground the shims to inbetween sizes to get them all perfect, not just in tolerance. Some day someone will go in for the next valve job and have to do some head scratching as to where I got the shims from. I did mark the new size on all of them so there is no misinformation.

I use the grinder the most while making custom tools that will then be used to make other parts that may go on an RC airplane..

Edited June 6, 2019 by Flyinfool

[Marcarl]

Smaller flakes but a LOT more of them.........

 

 

 

 

Atta boy!!!!

[Flyinfool]

Oh MAN...........

 

My stepper controller arrived in the mail for me to start playing with things. BUT they shipped it in a padded envelope and it got crushed in route. The power switch was smashed so I can not even try to turn it on. Oh well, it is on its way back to Amazon and a new one is on its way to me, hopefully by the end of this week.

[cowpuc]

oh man...........

 

My stepper controller arrived in the mail for me to start playing with things. But they shipped it in a padded envelope and it got crushed in route. The power switch was smashed so i can not even try to turn it on. Oh well, it is on its way back to amazon and a new one is on its way to me, hopefully by the end of this week.

 

arrgggggggg!!!

[RDawson]

Ya gotta be careful talking about those smaller snowflakes. You're gonna offend some of em. :witch_brew: Then they'll try to ban your grinder or something.

[Flyinfool]

FINALLY!!!! All of the parts are here for me to start connecting up oodles of wire to first see if I can make a stepper motor actually spin and if I can make it reverse direction on command AND not let any of the Magic Blue Smoke out of anything in the process.

 

This weekend I will start messing around with the wires. I have never played with stepper motors before so this is all new tech for me. A stepper motor is not like a regular motor, If you simply apply power it will just sit there and leak out Magic blue smoke. These are technically DC motors, BUT they have no brushes and are constructed with 2 sets of winding, when you apply power to one set of winding the motor will advance 1.8° and stop right there, when you apply power to the other set of winding the motor will advance 0.9° and stop right there, then when you remove power from the first winding the motor will advance another 0.9°. By cycling the power between winding 1, then 1 + 2, then 2, then 2 + 1, then 1, and then continuing the pattern the motor will advance 0.9° with each power change. You can also reverse the order to make the motor turn the other way. this is how you know just how far the motor has turned to be able to have positional control. Of course you need a driver module to do all of this power switching at very high speeds. Then you need a controller to take my intentions and convert it to an electronic language that the driver can understand.

 

This is my goal is to get all of this connected up correctly and functioning just on the bench just to see if I can make a motor spin.

This will just be for the "X" axis that moves the table back and forth, and back and forth.......

 

Once this is all laid out and working electrically then I will start modifying and making the changes to the grinder to actually implement it.

 

Then I get to start designing what it will take to move the table in the "Y" axis, but that will not be a running back and forth it will just take a small step after each back and forth of the table, and stop at the correct point so that the whole part gets ground but the machine does not crash into the end of travel, so there will be a bunch of extra stuff involved in this step.

[Patch]

I guess you don't have time to build me a new universal translator? ):

 

I can feel your passion all the way over here in the valley! What a mind stretching puzzle, have fun, and keep an eye for for the men in black;)

[cowpuc]

FINALLY!!!! All of the parts are here for me to start connecting up oodles of wire to first see if I can make a stepper motor actually spin and if I can make it reverse direction on command AND not let any of the Magic Blue Smoke out of anything in the process.

 

This weekend I will start messing around with the wires. I have never played with stepper motors before so this is all new tech for me. A stepper motor is not like a regular motor, If you simply apply power it will just sit there and leak out Magic blue smoke. These are technically DC motors, BUT they have no brushes and are constructed with 2 sets of winding, when you apply power to one set of winding the motor will advance 1.8° and stop right there, when you apply power to the other set of winding the motor will advance 0.9° and stop right there, then when you remove power from the first winding the motor will advance another 0.9°. By cycling the power between winding 1, then 1 + 2, then 2, then 2 + 1, then 1, and then continuing the pattern the motor will advance 0.9° with each power change. You can also reverse the order to make the motor turn the other way. this is how you know just how far the motor has turned to be able to have positional control. Of course you need a driver module to do all of this power switching at very high speeds. Then you need a controller to take my intentions and convert it to an electronic language that the driver can understand.

 

This is my goal is to get all of this connected up correctly and functioning just on the bench just to see if I can make a motor spin.

This will just be for the "X" axis that moves the table back and forth, and back and forth.......

 

Once this is all laid out and working electrically then I will start modifying and making the changes to the grinder to actually implement it.

 

Then I get to start designing what it will take to move the table in the "Y" axis, but that will not be a running back and forth it will just take a small step after each back and forth of the table, and stop at the correct point so that the whole part gets ground but the machine does not crash into the end of travel, so there will be a bunch of extra stuff involved in this step.

 

So are you wiring up a PLC for a controller Fool?

[Karaboo]

Are you using a prox sensor to make sure you can't run into a hard stop or provide a Home position? I know steppers don't really need to home, but it doesn't hurt, either. You can create a couple of simple menus to read in how fast and how far you want it to move and make it play nice with your Y axis. You could have it count the Y steps and return to one end and stop when it is through. I just made a similar fixture to rotate a part inside a mini bead blast cabinet. Fun stuff!

[Flyinfool]

I actually have no clue what I am doing, that is why this is not a comprehensive design but more of a wing it as I go. the X axis should be fairly easy and straight forward. I have a small controller board that has a knob to set speed and a push button to reverse direction. the direction button is a push on push off DPDT switch. My plan is to remove that switch from the PCB and add wires to a DPDT latching relay. The latching relay will be controlled my limit switches at each end of the table travel. When the table hits a switch it will change the state of the latching relay and that will then tell the controller to reverse direction.

 

So in use it will just be a matter of turn it on and the table will run back and forth all day long adjust the knob for how fast I want it to go. So the X axis will have limit switches to control its movement. the length of travel is controlled by setting stops, I plan to mount the switches to the stops so that I can adjust how far the table moves back and forth. The stops have a spring in them to provide a gentle stop and then the spring will help with the deceleration, change of direction, and acceleration.

 

Puc, I was not planning to use a PLC, I have never played with PLCs either, so I do not know much about them other than they are expensive, but my understanding is that they are not able to output the language that a driver understands so there would need to be another layer of electronic doodad in between.

 

Patch, If I use Pucs idea and use a PLC then I may be forced to build a universal translator because PLC and Stepper drivers talk 2 very different languages. Besides, the Men In Black have a lot of really cool toys........... so I will be watching for them, as long as they do not nebulize me.

[Karaboo]

so I will be watching for them, as long as they do not nebulize me.

 

Maybe they already have!

[Flyinfool]

 

Maybe they already have!

 

Maybe WHO has already WHAT???

[Karaboo]

EXACTLY

 

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[Flyinfool]

Woooo Hooooo!!!!!!!

 

I got the fancy stepper motor to spin, AND reverse direction on command. The speed control will vary it from about 60 RPM up to around 3,000 RPM.

 

Now I have to start working on the electronics to make the on off switch, and the speed control to be separate from the controller board so that I can have them mounted on a nice control panel. Then I have to find and tap into the controller circuit board the direction control and interface it to the 2 direction switches that will be at each end of the travel.

 

I think I know how to do these things, I just have to find where to splice the wires to the controller circuit board, and which traces on the controller board to cut so that all control is external to the board.

 

I did not make a video because YouTube does not need another boring vid of a motor spinning with nothing but a piece of tape on the shaft so you can see that it is spinning.

[Flyinfool]

After more testing, I found that I can get the motor down to about 1.5 RPM. with a 3/4 inch dia timing pulley mounted on the shaft I can not stop it just by trying to hold it. I was impressed at the felt torque from this tiny NEMA 23 x 57mm unipolar motor being run as a bipolar on 24VDC.

Interestingly another feature of stepper motors is that the slower they are turning, the greater the torque. Highest torque is when powered but not turning at all. A normal motor when not turning is just slightly more load than a direct short, with the stepper the amps stay the same whether at max RPM or stopped and holding position.

 

I now have the table reversing circuit built and working with the actual limit switches that I plan to use, Now I just have to interface it with the controller.

[Patch]

Post 16, 17, 18, I KNOW eh, and how many times have they.... to us?

 

After more testing, I found that I can get the motor down to about 1.5 RPM. with a 3/4 inch dia timing pulley mounted on the shaft I can not stop it just by trying to hold it. I was impressed at the felt torque from this tiny NEMA 23 x 57mm unipolar motor being run as a bipolar on 24VDC.

Interestingly another feature of stepper motors is that the slower they are turning, the greater the torque. Highest torque is when powered but not turning at all. A normal motor when not turning is just slightly more load than a direct short, with the stepper the amps stay the same whether at max RPM or stopped and holding position.

 

I now have the table reversing circuit built and working with the actual limit switches that I plan to use, Now I just have to interface it with the controller.

 

 

May I.. So in 79 two of us in the old Marconi dungeon tool crib looking for "the 1" drive drill" There was me with no schooling and the other with a certificate of smarts! There were 2 such drills dating back to the 60's; we'd sometimes use them to drive the tower winches, one worked and one not so much! Late night and we were preparing for a tower project in a hurry to hit the road! So which one? "I got an idea" said the smarter of the two of us, I'll rap a rag around the chuck and you trigger it quickly! "NAH I don't think so" said the unschooled one, that would leave me to write the incident report

 

Jeffff what's cha thinking

[Flyinfool]

Weeelllllll

It is just a tiny little motor, about a 2 inch cube (57mm cube), and it was only turning about 1.5 RPM, so plenty of time to let go. I do not have a proper setup to measure torque other than my fingers.

 

Today I hope to finish that final interface. Then I get to start designing the mechanics to attach the motor to the grinder. Then I get to start making the parts to make it happen.

[Flyinfool]

IT WORKS!!!!

 

 

I now have all of the electronics assembled and playing well together. The reversing switches actually make the motor go the other way, on command even.

 

 

Now I get to start figuring out how to attach all of this to the grinder.

[Flyinfool]

Well the chips have started flying.

 

I started by drilling a shaft size hole in a plate that will eventually become the mounting plate for the motor and belt drive. I then added the 4 mounting holes that will attach the plate to the machine. I drilled those mounting holes with a #7 drill which is the tap drill size for a 1/4-20 tapped hole. I then slid this plate onto the machine and used it as a drill bushing to drill the 4 #7 holes into the cast iron of the machine. I will later enlarge all of the holes in the plate and make them into slots so that I can later move the plate to adjust belt tension. I have also tapped the holes in the machine.

 

LOTS more work left to do. But at least I have started.

 

 

[RedRider]

Jeff,

 

Stepper (and their big brother - servo) motors and controls are what I do for a living. Sorry I didn't see this before.

 

Let me know if you have questions. I may be able to help.

 

RR