MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Share #1 Posted February 25, 2015 My goofy home has a roof top furnace/ac unit on a slab next to the house. There is a foot of snow all around it and it's fairly cold. The igniter has crapped out. I got the access panel off and was able to light it manually. I've cranked the temp up in the hopes that we'll pack in enough heat that we and the pipes don't freeze by morning. In the AM I'll light it again..... Given the conditions out there it's going to be tough to work on. I'm tempted to run a thin copper tube hooked up to the gas as a pilot light so the furnace will work. Then tackle the igniter when I don't have to crawl around in the snow. Any thoughts on my temp fix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted February 25, 2015 Share #2 Posted February 25, 2015 There are two sure ways to handle this situation #1 - Cell Phone #2 - Land Line With either one you can surely find someone that is willing to crawl around in the snow and cold to fix the igniter. That's my story and I'm sticking to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncledj Posted February 25, 2015 Share #3 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Need more info and detailed pics. Spark light or hot surface ignite.....pilot ignition or direct....what happens when it goes into an ignition sequence?... Need info before even an educated guess can be attempted. 27 yrs as an HVAC Tech. PS: If you look me up you'll find my phone #. Feel free to gimme a call if you think I can help. Edited February 25, 2015 by uncledj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eck Posted February 25, 2015 Share #4 Posted February 25, 2015 Need more info and detailed pics. Spark light or hot surface ignite.....pilot ignition or direct....what happens when it goes into an ignition sequence?... Need info before even an educated guess can be attempted. 27 yrs as an HVAC Tech. PS: If you look me up you'll find my phone #. Feel free to gimme a call if you think I can help. That's what I'm talking about.. This is why I really like this site and the people on it. Such a kind offer of you uncledj to provide your years of experience and wisdom to help another VR family member out. Awesome!! Just pure AWESOME!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #5 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) There are two sure ways to handle this situation #1 - Cell Phone #2 - Land Line With either one you can surely find someone that is willing to crawl around in the snow and cold to fix the igniter. That's my story and I'm sticking to it #3 - Homeowner is cheap Need more info and detailed pics. Spark light or hot surface ignite.....pilot ignition or direct....what happens when it goes into an ignition sequence?... Need info before even an educated guess can be attempted. 27 yrs as an HVAC Tech. PS: If you look me up you'll find my phone #. Feel free to gimme a call if you think I can help. It was dark and cold, so it didn't get a thorough inspection. It's got what sure looks like a pilot, with two narrow metal lines back to the gas valve. That's where I applied the bic, but the main burner lit right up so I didn't pay close attention - I just shut the panel and ran indoors. I assume it's spark light, didn't see any kind of surface to heat up, but I've never heard it ticking either. It wasn't displaying any kind of ignition sequence. When the thermostat called for heat the gas valve would click but nothing else. I stuck the lighter in then re-connected the thermostat assuming it would shut down if it didn't light pretty quick. After thinking about it though there was a gas smell around the cabinet and it might not have any smarts to shut down the pilot if it fails to light. (The furnace was installed in 1987). Anyhow, this morning it is working properly. If it hangs on for a few weeks I'll be able to work on it in much better conditions. I'll pull the documents out of the file and take them to the shop with me to look at today. Edited February 25, 2015 by MiCarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted February 25, 2015 Share #6 Posted February 25, 2015 A guy jumped out of an airplane, pulled the rip cord, nothing happened. He looked around and saw a guy coming UP - as they passed each other the jumper asked "do you know anything about parachutes ?" "No" was his response. "Do you know anything about gas furnaces ?" just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted February 25, 2015 A guy jumped out of an airplane, pulled the rip cord, nothing happened. He looked around and saw a guy coming UP - as they passed each other the jumper asked "do you know anything about parachutes ?" "No" was his response. "Do you know anything about gas furnaces ?" just sayin' I understand what you're saying. I am a little bit smarter than the average bear. This home has 3 furnaces (don't ask!) and I've repaired both of the others (including a board level repair on the one). I haven't electrocuted or blown up myself since I was a teenager (long time ago). Need more info and detailed pics. Spark light or hot surface ignite.....pilot ignition or direct....what happens when it goes into an ignition sequence?... Need info before even an educated guess can be attempted. 27 yrs as an HVAC Tech. PS: If you look me up you'll find my phone #. Feel free to gimme a call if you think I can help. Ok, I pulled the info packet from the files that came with the house. Unfortunately there is no service info in there (the others had installation instructions, part diagrams etc.). All it's got is an owners manual that basically tells you how to work a thermostat. It does have the model number and a brief description of the ignition sequence. It does have lots of receipts for service the first few years - apparently it took a few tries to work the kinks out of this thing. It's been just fine the 18 years we've lived there. Here is the description from the owners manual of what happens: "The pilot ignition system will spark, lighting the pilot within a few seconds. Shortly thereafter, a flame sensing device verifies that the pilot has been lit. The gas valve will then open and permit gas to flow to the main burners. The pilot flame lights the burners. After a built-in time delay of approximately 2 minutes, the furnace blower is switched on." Since I was able to light the pilot manually and it went from there my thinking is that the problem is probably with the ignitor control or maybe the main control board. Of course it's also possible it's just a poor connection and I bumped something while in there........ I'd like to chase up part numbers for the ignitor, ignitor control and main control board. I'm not having much luck on the internet. If anyone has a source for information I'd appreciate some help. It's a Bryant model 585HJW036100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted February 25, 2015 Share #8 Posted February 25, 2015 Didn't mean to muddy the waters - just a friendly warning. I'm sure you are capable of the repair, but I certainly wouldn't be crawling around in this sub zero temps when I could pay someone to do it. Good Luck - I know there's someone here that can help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted February 25, 2015 Share #9 Posted February 25, 2015 Do what you need to to keep the pipes from freezing. BUT I would not do your idea of running a copper line to make its own pilot light. If/when the wind blows it out there is no thermocouple or other sensor to turn off the gas and the cabinet will fill with gas, the next time a relay opens or closes that Roof top HVAC unit that is sitting on a slab next to the house will actually become a roof mounted unit, but likely on the neighbors roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlm Posted February 25, 2015 Share #10 Posted February 25, 2015 I understand what you're saying. I am a little bit smarter than the average bear. This home has 3 furnaces (don't ask!) and I've repaired both of the others (including a board level repair on the one). I haven't electrocuted or blown up myself since I was a teenager (long time ago). Ok, I pulled the info packet from the files that came with the house. Unfortunately there is no service info in there (the others had installation instructions, part diagrams etc.). All it's got is an owners manual that basically tells you how to work a thermostat. It does have the model number and a brief description of the ignition sequence. It does have lots of receipts for service the first few years - apparently it took a few tries to work the kinks out of this thing. It's been just fine the 18 years we've lived there. Here is the description from the owners manual of what happens: "The pilot ignition system will spark, lighting the pilot within a few seconds. Shortly thereafter, a flame sensing device verifies that the pilot has been lit. The gas valve will then open and permit gas to flow to the main burners. The pilot flame lights the burners. After a built-in time delay of approximately 2 minutes, the furnace blower is switched on." Since I was able to light the pilot manually and it went from there my thinking is that the problem is probably with the ignitor control or maybe the main control board. Of course it's also possible it's just a poor connection and I bumped something while in there........ I'd like to chase up part numbers for the ignitor, ignitor control and main control board. I'm not having much luck on the internet. If anyone has a source for information I'd appreciate some help. It's a Bryant model 585HJW036100. Depending on what series it is, there are three types of pilot and spark control for this unit. The complete product and serial number will determine which you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #11 Posted February 25, 2015 Depending on what series it is, there are three types of pilot and spark control for this unit. The complete product and serial number will determine which you have. What I have in the book: Model No. 585HJW036100 Product No. - Serial No. 1987C92368 When I get home I'll check the unit for a Product No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlm Posted February 25, 2015 Share #12 Posted February 25, 2015 What I have in the book: Model No. 585HJW036100 Product No. - Serial No. 1987C92368 When I get home I'll check the unit for a Product No. Look at the pilot and spark control too. One style pilot will have three wires going to it. The other will have one cable. One type spark control is a small black box, the other is a large gray box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted February 25, 2015 HVAC unit that is sitting on a slab next to the house will actually become a roof mounted unit, but likely on the neighbors roof. That would make it the neighbor's problem..... Seriously though - just a couple weeks ago I threw away a gas fireplace log that had a pilot with thermocouple. Sure would come in handy now. I know better than to throw stuff away too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted February 25, 2015 Share #14 Posted February 25, 2015 Only till the neighbor figures out where it came from....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBill1 Posted February 25, 2015 Share #15 Posted February 25, 2015 I been having trouble since this bitter cold temps. with the condensate line freezing up lately on my gas furnace. When this happens no ignition or gas flow. Just something else to cross off your trouble shooting list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted February 25, 2015 Share #16 Posted February 25, 2015 On my gas heaters over the years (yes we do need heat once in a while in Arizona), the flame sensing device has almost always been the culprit when my heater doesn't light up. BUT the Carrier's I have all give error codes to that effect. In essence, the system tries to light the burners, the flame sensor is soot covered and doesn't sense the flames, system shuts down. Sensors like mine are cleaned carefully with a piece of regular paper. That was in my owner's manual... The ignitor (different types) can also be the culprit, but again...you should have an error code blinking on the main board. I'm no expert...just throwing out ideas... It's cool that we have an HVAC expert on board! Good Luck.... david Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #17 Posted February 25, 2015 Error code? What's that. This ain't got no blinking anything. Since I could manually light the pilot and then it fired right up I don't think it's the flame sensor or gas flow. The igniter wasn't firing off for some reason. SWMBO is home today and I haven't got a call saying she's cold so I guess it's still working. Supposed to be -6 tonight. Probably quit again about midnight......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncledj Posted February 25, 2015 Share #18 Posted February 25, 2015 A few pics of the components in question will take most if not all of the guesswork out of it. As old as it is, it should be pretty simple figure out if I know what we're working with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share #19 Posted February 25, 2015 Model No. 585HJW036100 Product No. 585HJW036100ABAF Serial No. 1987C92368 A picture of the ignition control: Pretty crappy cell phone pic. Label says G60RBG-3, EF33C2189. There appear to be two wires going to the pilot, the white one passing across the face of the ignition control and the spark lead from the left end. The gas valve is behind (part?) of it. That's all that's down in the combustion area. Above it is a partition and above that are mounted a couple capacitors and relays. I believe the control board is behind the caps and relays. It fired up while I was in there. There is a heavy click that sounds like a gas valve and an almost instant woosh from the burner lighting. After that I can hear a rapid, quiet clicking (almost a buz) that I think is the spark. After a few seconds the clicking quits. The spark lead is wound around the gas line to the pilot. I wonder if it's possible the insulation is breaking down and it's grounding? It was close to freezing yesterday and possible some snow melted making it damp. For now I'm not inclined to mess with it while it continues to work. It's quite unpleasant to get to and I don't want to risk making what appears to be a transient issue permanent while the weather is cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncledj Posted February 26, 2015 Share #20 Posted February 26, 2015 Wow, that brings back memories. I don't think I've had to deal with one of those for 10 years or more. They used to make a version of that control that mounted to the top of the gas valve. I'll do a bit of checking, but I'd be a bit surprised if you can still get 'em. It's entirely possible that the ignition lead has weak insulation and is shorting. If you think this is the issue, you may want to try rerouting the wire, keeping it away from any metal where it can find a ground....as best you can.... The white wire will lead to your flame sensor. You may want to make sure all connections to the flame sensor are clean and tight. You may also want to take a small wire brush or steel wool to clean any rusted terminals, and especially the flame sensor rod. (Avoid using sandcloth) This flame sensor circuit will be carrying only a couple millionths of an amp, as the flame sense signal, so it's important that it be a good circuit. If you need a new ignition lead, lemme know what the ends look like and how long it is and I'll see if I can come up with one for you. If the burner control is failing, I think I'd opt for a newer style, (much cheaper to buy, and I can probably send one that'll work your way for free)...the only issue there is it'll take a bit of rewiring. I can walk you through it. Whatever control you use, you should be able to retain the same flame sensor and electrode. For now, let's hope it works long enough to get you through this weather, but let me know where you want to go from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlm Posted February 26, 2015 Share #21 Posted February 26, 2015 Hopefully uncledj can get you fixed up. That part is still available but it is expensive. List price is $535 and change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share #22 Posted February 26, 2015 Thanks for the help guys. Generally I hate it when stuff "fixes" itself. In this case though I'm glad I'm not laying in the snow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted February 26, 2015 Share #23 Posted February 26, 2015 This should help you Micarl ,call Behler- Young Company they are a supplier 248-437-3070 ask for Big Mike a former member here, this is the New Hudson branch. They are a Bryant dealer but Bryant and Carrier are the same. He lives in Farmington Hills he works there and is a service tech close to you. Behler-Young has a branch at 11939 Merriman Rd . You can use my company name to get what you need as they only sell to licensed contractors if you want to do it yourself. Or you can always call me, I'm not down that way much anymore but you never know. 248-618-9925 Gage Mechanical Being that it is a 1987 the parts may be scarish . Might have to retro fit a new style direct spark ignition system on it . It has been done many times on those . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon_One Posted February 28, 2015 Share #24 Posted February 28, 2015 Feeling your pain Carl. My daughters furnace croaked last night. They got up for work with 45* temps in the house. Certainly not fun with these record breaking sub - low temps we're having. Their furnace is 14 years old so no telling what it'll cost them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCarl Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share #25 Posted February 28, 2015 Feeling your pain Carl. My daughters furnace croaked last night. They got up for work with 45* temps in the house. Certainly not fun with these record breaking sub - low temps we're having. Their furnace is 14 years old so no telling what it'll cost them. Hopefully it won't be too bad. Mine is still working fine. Fingers crossed....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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