BURNT! clutch.. wow..

[Seaking]

wow, I now know what a burnt clutch looks like.. and its not a pretty sight.. If you recall I burnt out the clutch while on an advanced rider course the other weekend and ended up with so little clutch travel that it made riding the bike difficult trying to 'ride the clutch' in everyday slow maneuvers..

 

This was a PCW clutch mod I had installed last July, and probably have over 20,000 miles on it? (I did over 33,500 miles on the bike last summer alone, not bad for someone up in the great white north!)

 

I pulled the clutch apart tonight and did an oil change at the same time as a precaution. The friction plates were smoothed out and the steel plates were BLACK!! with a tinge of blue here and there.. ouch.. no wonder!!

 

In installed new friction and steel plates.. I didn't cross hatch sand the steel plates thinking that this would wear down the friction pads prematurely.. I dunno..

 

I have to go back tomorrow and whack smack dopey idiot at the parts counter for ordering the wrong Clutch Cover Gasket, which I paid extra for expedited delivery.. I reused the old, which is something you should never do! but you know how it is.. when you're geographically located exactly 2 weeks away from any source of Yamaha parts, you have to do what you have to do.. Perhaps Earl's parts will arrive sooner.. Regardless, someone tomorrow is gonna get an earful.

 

However, with the new clutch installed, new oil in the bike, I have tons of clutch lever travel and a HUGE friction zone again! Better than that micro 1/4 inch play I had before.

 

And the bike rides a lot smoother now, wow, impressive.. I'm guessing I did something to that clutch late last fall because as I was riding it since March this year, there was a weird shudder whenever in 5th on the highway.. now it's really GONE and the mirrors are glass smooth.. wow.Must have been the clutch shuddering.. And when I did the course it was all it could take and died.. odd..

 

Wondering if any of the several oils I tried might have contributed to it.. ?

 

Anyway.. fun is fun as what it is.. I think the photo shows how black the steel disks are.. they start as bright brushed aluminum colour, but wow, from dark brown to black..

[Cougar]

:shock3:So what do you think caused this all to happen in your long story?

Do you think you had something not installed right form the start?

Hard riding? dunno.

[Sylvester]

:shock3:So what do you think caused this all to happen in your long story?

Do you think you had something not installed right form the start?

Hard riding? dunno.

 

That is what I am wondering, too. The PCW directions are good and if you have a shop manual it helps, but there are still things you can screw up.

 

[CaptainJoe]

'Did you replace clutch springs as well? They, like anything else wearout.

As far as roughing the steel plates up, you really don't and shouldn't have to do that since you stated you bought new ones. The only time I ever do that, is if the plates are glazed and then only with 220 grit followed by 400 grit wet or dry sandpaper.

 

Although I can't tell what oil you used, be careful on your selection.

Remember the the transmission and engine oil is one and the same on a bike so these are specially formulated oils. Can't use regular Pennsoil 10w40 unless of course you like changing clutches.

I Cringe everytime I go to Yamaha dealer for oil and filter $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as I change oil every 3000 miles religiously!!!

 

I need to look them up on internet but you know I procastinate 'way to much'.

[Seaking]

The PCW clutch spring is just a spring plate, heavier duty than the yammy one.. And their instructions for swapping out the half plates are clear enough, and I even had buddy at PCW confirm over the phone as to what and how I was doing it so I am very very confident it was properly installed..

 

Hard riding? Yes, I should think I ride the girl hard.. with over 20,000 miles and doing a lot of slow course maneuvers while I'm teach motorcycle safety courses, and slow city streets and such, I typically drop the hammer on the bike etc.. The clutch is hauling 900 lbs of bike and erhm ahh... a portly gentleman on top of that, it's a heck of a load to yank up the road.. I do ride the clutch a lot in slow speed turns and such..

 

As far as "oils" go.. Hmmm

 

I'm wondering.. Every oil in the bike has been proper MC oil, none of that auto safe for bikes stuff.. Except for the last oil change which was the Shell Rotella.. but to be honest, the bike started to feel 'odd' even before that I should think.. Remember my saying about the 5th gear on the highway feeling odd and now it's super? There is no longer any buzz in the mirrors.. which to me says my clutch was chattering before it finally burnt out.

 

Apart from the Yamaha oil, I've had one session of AMSOIL (expensive), two changes of Kawasaki 10W40 Synthetic and then the Rotella and now again with the Kawasaki 10W40 Synthetic (great price on it)..

 

I plan to change my oil one more time before heading off on the big road trip down through the USA next month..

 

This will be something I'll be keeping an eye on for the next little while..

[Condor]

I think I'd go back to PWC, send 'm the pic, and ask what's up?? They're the experts. That is catrostrophic failure, and scary since it's part of the engine oil system. I've never seen plates in that condition with twice the miles.

[Seaking]

I think I'd go back to PWC, send 'm the pic, and ask what's up?? They're the experts. That is catrostrophic failure, and scary since it's part of the engine oil system. I've never seen plates in that condition with twice the miles.

 

I'll see what they have to say / recommend etc..

 

Cheers

[gator06]

I put Rotella in my bike this spring, and within one week I new something was wrong. Smelled like burnt oil coming from my crank case breather. I changed to MC oil and all seems well again. When I investigated the oil specs further I found that Rotella has a CI ratting also and Yamma says to stay away from Diesel ratings. I believe the clutch burns up the oil or maybe the oil burns up the clutch. No more smell. All seems well.

[Seaking]

I put Rotella in my bike this spring, and within one week I new something was wrong. Smelled like burnt oil coming from my crank case breather. I changed to MC oil and all seems well again. When I investigated the oil specs further I found that Rotella has a CI ratting also and Yamma says to stay away from Diesel ratings. I believe the clutch burns up the oil or maybe the oil burns up the clutch. No more smell. All seems well.

 

When I was 'wetting' the parts in oil, I used up the rest of the Rotella and put in a bit of the Kawasaki oil in.. wow, what a difference in colour.. Rotella was much darker than the Kawi oil.. which made me hesitate putting in Rotella back in.. no worries since it's no longer available on the shelves around here (or easily found?!) Hence why gone back to the Kawi

 

However, a lot of the lads here use the Rotella and swear by it.. But after this, I would think I may keep away from it.. seems too coincidental for my tastes.. Might be great for the engine but not when up against an abused clutch..

 

I sent the photo and details to PCW, should hear back within a few weeks..

[Cougar]

I am betting it has nothing to do with the PCW spring.

[Sideoftheroad]

Wonder if it has anything to do w/ Kawa oil?

 

Know 2 guys. One rides a beamer and other used to ride a roadstar. Roadstar buddy decided to try and use the beamer buddy's oil.

 

End result a very costy fix. The beamer oil didn't do so well and burned the pistons or something like that in the roadstar.

 

There might have been some pre-existing issues w/ the engine but the beamer oil finished it off.

[RedRaptor22]

I've used rotella in almost all of my wet clutch bikes since I can remember with no problems, even in my motocross bikes I've never had to change a clutch.

 

Once had a slippery clutch because of synthetic oil and a fresh oil change with rotella cleared it right up.

[jer878]

:thumbsup2:After I put the "BUB's" on i had a tendency of slipping the clutch to put a load on the engine and get the deep power sound. Noticed some slipping and thought to myself I should probably stop that sh**. Got rid of the BUB's still some slipping when cold. Aside from one synthetic change I always used yamahalube. I order the PCW clutch kit wit ht all new plates and will be putting it on in the next couple of weeks. Will check the steel at that time and report back to the forum.

[Seaking]

What's a lot of fun is that we all have our preferences and hear a lot of anecdotal stories about this and that oil, what works, what doesn't etc etc..

 

Honestly I don't know.. I can't see the Kawi oil causing problems anymore than I would point the finger at the expensive Amsoil or the Rotella..

 

I most likely severely abused the hell out of the clutch because I ride my bike too hard..

 

At the end of the summer I will be pulling the clutch apart again and inspecting the plates (give them a blast as well) and see how things are then..

 

its all speculation really.. I doubt the PCW spring plate had anything to do with it..

 

BUT, just silly curiousite.. you know how when the bike is on it's side stand and you remove the clutch cover, very little oil comes out.. it's a wet clutch.. I am not sure how it all works an all but when the bike is up right, I'm assuming the engine oil level floods that area to lub the discs for normal operation..

 

On the Advanced Rider Course, the bike is leaning hard in those maneuvers, so when I'm doing a lot of LEFT turns (say in the iron cross exercise) would that leave the clutch high and dry of oil for too long a period of time thus over heating the clutch? I don't know if it's a splash and spray system but those who took that type of course know how much the bike leans in those runs.. and you could be doing it for a long time..

 

Any thoughts to that one?

[flb_78]

You're slipping your clutch way too much. It's not the oil.

 

You should really just pick one oil and stick with it though.

[Seaking]

You're slipping your clutch way too much. It's not the oil.

 

You should really just pick one oil and stick with it though.

 

Sticking with the "one" oil is tricking in this weird town.. Even though there are two Yamaha dealers, they don't keep enough stock of anything.. Seems the Kawi oil might be the steady stuff.. they even run out of yamalube etc..

 

sigh..

 

I'm surprised they don't have to order that in from Japan every time you need to do an oil change..

[KiteSquid]

When I investigated the oil specs further I found that Rotella has a CI ratting also and Yamma says to stay away from Diesel ratings.

 

Rotella T6 (full synthetic, 5W-40) has a JASCO MA rating, which is what Yamaha calls for in my service manual.

 

I don't know about the other formulations of Rotella, but the web site is HERE if you want more information.

[Seaking]

Rotella T6 (full synthetic, 5W-40) has a JASCO MA rating, which is what Yamaha calls for in my service manual.

 

I don't know about the other formulations of Rotella, but the web site is HERE if you want more information.

 

I hear ya M8.. After what I just went through and after hearing back from John at PCW, I will be going back to Dino oil, YamaLube after this.. Its readily available and actually priced lower than the Rotella.. I have nothing more than anecdotal evidence why I, personally won't be using Rotella again.. this is not to say there is anything bad about it.. but I can't feel right about using it again after what happened..

 

Other products I will lay in as 'suspect' but offer nothing more than anecdotal evidence is MotorKote treatment I added last fall.. The bike's exhaust started smelling funny after using it and it's around that time that the bike started feeling slightly but barely noticeable wonky.. Now with new clutch parts, new dino oil and such, it's like a whole new bike.

 

We all have our reasons to use what we use.. I'm going back to basics.. Dino oil, YamaLube.. I ride a lot and change oil a lot and it's the most readily available oil at a decent price, and it's the one recommended by the bike's manufacturer..

 

But we'll see how this summer goes and how long I make this clutch last

[flb_78]

Also, if you're doing a lot of low speeding riding and slipping the clutch, you should probably get the V-max gears installed in your diff to lower your gear ratio to make low speed maneuvers easier.

[Squeeze]

WOW, talk about an abused Clutch ....

 

 

I personally would NOT use any synthetic Oil when i read what you're doing with your Bike. JASO MA or MA2 Specs certified or not.

 

Period.

 

 

Why ??

 

Because each and every Year on our german Vmax Board some Chicks are much smarter than the Hen and try it, most pay the Price sooner or later.

 

This is even much more important if you use the "Friction Zone" a Lot. Makes me wonder about what you Guys are teaching and get taught off ?

 

I've never been taught to rev the Bike up to halfway to redline and then only engage the Clutch partially. That's sounds a bit stupid. For me, Friction Zone is the the Area where the Clutch just engages and not fully biting. If i need to operate in the that Area, it's not more than 2k RpM for me. That should give you plenty enough Power to play with.

[1BigDog]

At 25k my stock clutch starting slipping. I installed the Barnett set-up with new carbon fiber discs and have used 20-50 synthetic oil ever since. 6 years and 40k later still no issues. I try to stick with one brand of oil. Personally, Yamaha dino oil got some of the worst ratings on some comparison chart I read a long time ago. As far as that clutch cover gasket went, I bought a roll of rubber impregnated gasket material and made my own. $4 bucks for the roll and I have made at least 6 other gaskets from it as well. Think old school.......

[Seaking]

WOW, talk about an abused Clutch ....

 

This is even much more important if you use the "Friction Zone" a Lot. Makes me wonder about what you Guys are teaching and get taught off ?

 

I've never been taught to rev the Bike up to halfway to redline and then only engage the Clutch partially. That's sounds a bit stupid. For me, Friction Zone is the the Area where the Clutch just engages and not fully biting. If i need to operate in the that Area, it's not more than 2k RpM for me. That should give you plenty enough Power to play with.

 

No, that is not what is being taught, that's what *I* did.. there is a difference.. I'd never been able to crank this bike around a sharp slow corner like that before and was working hard at it.. too hard.. and burnt my clutch.. and no, not around the half way mark to red line lol.. even I'm not that abusive.. It was an expensive learning process to get to where I can handle the bike now.. but for what i can do with my bike now, I'd have to say it was worth the price.. not the aggravation mind you..

 

After installing the new clutch and changing out the oil, I went back to try the course again and was able to redo the excises with much more ease and less revs on the engine.. the proper way, so to speak..

 

just a lot of practice..

 

Cheers M8

[Seaking]

At 25k my stock clutch starting slipping. I installed the Barnett set-up with new carbon fiber discs and have used 20-50 synthetic oil ever since. 6 years and 40k later still no issues. I try to stick with one brand of oil. Personally, Yamaha dino oil got some of the worst ratings on some comparison chart I read a long time ago. As far as that clutch cover gasket went, I bought a roll of rubber impregnated gasket material and made my own. $4 bucks for the roll and I have made at least 6 other gaskets from it as well. Think old school.......

 

Unfortunately we're kinda stuck with what is available in this area.. we're lucky to have any choice at all.. ergh.. I'll have to stick with the Yami Dino oil for now until I find something better and readily available.. however, bouncing from one brand to another to a diff type isn't doing me any favours.. :/

 

Gaskets? I'm not sure how to use the material stuff you're using but the $20 gasket works for me.. I'm the older school of opening a plastic bag kinda guy

 

Cheers M8

[Flyinfool]

BUT, just silly curiousite.. you know how when the bike is on it's side stand and you remove the clutch cover, very little oil comes out.. it's a wet clutch.. I am not sure how it all works an all but when the bike is up right, I'm assuming the engine oil level floods that area to lub the discs for normal operation..

 

On the Advanced Rider Course, the bike is leaning hard in those maneuvers, so when I'm doing a lot of LEFT turns (say in the iron cross exercise) would that leave the clutch high and dry of oil for too long a period of time thus over heating the clutch? I don't know if it's a splash and spray system but those who took that type of course know how much the bike leans in those runs.. and you could be doing it for a long time..

 

Any thoughts to that one?

 

The oil does not know that you are leaning in a turn.

You could just as easily check you oil level in a hard turn of either direction and it will not change.

If you think about it the centripetal force of the turn must be balanced with gravity or the bike will fall down. Try this, tape a cup of water to a level spot on the bike and take some hard constant speed turns, the water will stay level with the top of the cup. Accelerating or decelerating will still splash water out the front or back of the cup unless you are on a unicycle.

 

Just out of curiosity, Do you have a micrometer to measure the thickness of the burnt up plates?

Yamaha claims worn out is 2.8mm or .110 inch.

[Seaking]

The oil does not know that you are leaning in a turn.

You could just as easily check you oil level in a hard turn of either direction and it will not change.

If you think about it the centripetal force of the turn must be balanced with gravity or the bike will fall down. Try this, tape a cup of water to a level spot on the bike and take some hard constant speed turns, the water will stay level with the top of the cup. Accelerating or decelerating will still splash water out the front or back of the cup unless you are on a unicycle.

 

Just out of curiosity, Do you have a micrometer to measure the thickness of the burnt up plates?

Yamaha claims worn out is 2.8mm or .110 inch.

 

Oil level in a high speed turn, the centrifugal force would force the oil down to the bottom of the oil pan flat and level yes.. but in a slow speed hard lean this is not the case as gravity supersedes centrifugal forces and will pull the oil down to the low end side of the crank case, much like if your bike is on the kick stand.. hence why I was wondering if the clutch assy is bathed with spray or splash etc..

 

I will be borrowing a micrometer to mic up the new rear disc installed this weekend to keep record of the wear and tear on it.. just for curiosity sake.. I'll take average measurements of the steel and fiber plates to see how low they are.. black as they are..

 

Cheers M8