Hey all you dummies....listen up!!!

[Guest KitCarson]

This letter is meant with the best of intentions.......the word dummy is used affectionately....I do care about all of you......and it is my goal this year to try to help some of you learn to ride safer....yea I am not an angel myself......have those times with I like to play too.......but this is important, I think you should listen to it.

[Albino Rhino]

This letter is meant with the best of intentions.......the word dummy is used affectionately....I do care about all of you......and it is my goal this year to try to help some of you learn to ride safer....yea I am not an angel myself......have those times with I like to play too.......but this is important, I think you should listen to it.

Good stuff! And you highlight many areas that are the reasons I no longer ride in large groups. (former road captain & tail gunner)

[Squidley]

Kit,

I like your post, no truer words could be spoken. I like to follow all of the pointers that you mention when I host the M&E's. Group rides can be enjoyable and safe, like you mentioned...a little fore planning will go a long way.

I do hope that all of our members take the time to read this. You have brought up a great conversation piece that will do nothing less than make up think a bit more

PS.....we still love you....even if your on a Wing

[86er]

I have to agree with a lot of what you have to say, Kit. A safety talk ahead of the ride, breaking big rides into smaller groups and gassing up ahead of time.

 

But, to play the devil's advocate, I have to say something about Interstate riding. First of all, I HATE the super slab and only use it to get from point A to point B and generally I want to do that as quickly as possible. I don't think there is that much difference if you crash at 70mph or 85mph, either way you're screwed. As far as having time to react and stop is more a point of watching far enough down the road to foresee problems. That is not to say something can't "pop up" but that usually doesn't happen. In the traffic in Atlanta, if you aren't going 75 to 80 you will be getting steadily passed. I, for one, prefer to move thru' other driver's blind spots, rather than trust them to drive through mine, so I tend to move 5mph or so faster than the average of the traffic. This is riding alone or with 1 or 2 others, not large groups.

 

I rode with a group once (and I gotta say it was a Wing group) that was riding I285 at 60 mph in the center lane. The rest of the traffic was moving closer to 80. It scared the Bejesus out of me! We had people cutting thru' us, flying past us and we were generally a danger to ourselves and others! I didn't have cb at the time so I couldn't say anything. But my friend and I broke off from them after lunch!

 

Now I'm not saying that a large group should move 10mph faster than the traffic but they shouldn't move 10mph slower either. If there is an HOV lane, that should be used and the speed held. If not the group should move the speed of the traffic in the lane next to the right lane so that traffic can enter and exit the highway.

 

And you can't eliminate riders that don't have CBs! You just need to put them in the middle of the group.

 

Love ya, man!

 

[Eck]

I'm happy to see your concern..and constant reminders are good..

I posted mine a couple weeks ago on the same issue;

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19585

[pete]

Thanks Kit I havn't rode much with groups.I am not too comfortable with them.Mostly the reason being I am not sure what they are going to do and what is expected of me.But I do learn from your articles.

[DKleven]

Great reminder post.......Thanks

[Guest KitCarson]

I have to agree with a lot of what you have to say, Kit. A safety talk ahead of the ride, breaking big rides into smaller groups and gassing up ahead of time.

 

But, to play the devil's advocate, I have to say something about Interstate riding. First of all, I HATE the super slab and only use it to get from point A to point B and generally I want to do that as quickly as possible. I don't think there is that much difference if you crash at 70mph or 85mph, either way you're screwed. As far as having time to react and stop is more a point of watching far enough down the road to foresee problems. That is not to say something can't "pop up" but that usually doesn't happen. In the traffic in Atlanta, if you aren't going 75 to 80 you will be getting steadily passed. I, for one, prefer to move thru' other driver's blind spots, rather than trust them to drive through mine, so I tend to move 5mph or so faster than the average of the traffic. This is riding alone or with 1 or 2 others, not large groups.

 

I rode with a group once (and I gotta say it was a Wing group) that was riding I285 at 60 mph in the center lane. The rest of the traffic was moving closer to 80. It scared the Bejesus out of me! We had people cutting thru' us, flying past us and we were generally a danger to ourselves and others! I didn't have cb at the time so I couldn't say anything. But my friend and I broke off from them after lunch!

 

Now I'm not saying that a large group should move 10mph faster than the traffic but they shouldn't move 10mph slower either. If there is an HOV lane, that should be used and the speed held. If not the group should move the speed of the traffic in the lane next to the right lane so that traffic can enter and exit the highway.

 

And you can't eliminate riders that don't have CBs! You just need to put them in the middle of the group.

 

Love ya, man!

 

Yes Todd.......going too slow on the big slab is just as Dumb!! In fact most likely more so.....in fact for sure is worse. I am speaking in general terms.......Road Captain should adjust to conditions a bit...use a little common sense.......I did not know a Wing could go 60??? Mine idles that fast!!. Yes I hate the big slabs with a passion.....and really I do not think what you do....or how you do it......will help much anymore....they have just gotten so full of traffic.......and none of the cars ever pay attention to anything.....if you do 80 they will do 90.........I do not have a solution to all the people in the world now days and and all the traffic.

I suppose we just have to really be watchful......and tell ourselves to do so on those interstates.......then relax a little and take a deep breath when we finally hit the secondary roads.......yea I hate them too......with a passion.

[Guest KitCarson]

Thanks Kit I havn't rode much with groups.I am not too comfortable with them.Mostly the reason being I am not sure what they are going to do and what is expected of me.But I do learn from your articles.

Been there, felt that way......still feel that way sometimes, when things are so disorganized. As a new member to a group , yes you do feel kinda lost......especially if you do not know where you are going and or what the days game plan is.......some tend to forget the concerns of new people to a group.....some of us have rode so much......are never lost, it is the place we are looking for that is lost..everyone becomes too familiar with each other which works fine for two to four bikes or so.....in other words we are concerned but not a lot....we trust our local contact to get us there.....then they take off on their own......group gets split up.......yes exactly what I was talking about.......so you are not alone.....all of us would like to know the daily game plan and where we are going.

[Blackjack]

Your thread is timely, Kit!

 

One of my original concerns when deciding whether or not it really was a good idea to organize a monthly M&E was the issue of safety. After serious consideration, I realized that the M&Es could provide opportunities not only for camaraderie, but also to increase rider awareness and perhaps help improve riding skills. So, I went ahead with my plan.

 

As part of that plan, I was prepared yesterday to have a safety meeting after breakfast, just before we "hit the road". Since there were only three of us due to the weather ( see this thread: http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19637), and we had all ridden together before on numerous occasions, it was not necessary to do so.

 

At the next monthly M&E, on April 12th, and at every subsequent get-together, we will discuss and review rider safety and group riding protocol, allowing for variances on two-lane, four-lane, and highway riding. We will also split into groups of no more than seven (depending, of course, on total number of riders), with consideration given to personal group riding experience and individual skill level.

 

I'll be glad to provide an update after the next M&E to let everyone know how things turn out. I will also provide the guidelines we put in place and remark on their viability. Believe me, what doesn't work will be fixed, and quickly...

 

Terry

[Guest KitCarson]

Your thread is timely, Kit!

 

One of my original concerns when deciding whether or not it really was a good idea to organize a monthly M&E was the issue of safety. After serious consideration, I realized that the M&Es could provide opportunities not only for camaraderie, but also to increase rider awareness and perhaps help improve riding skills. So, I went ahead with my plan.

 

As part of that plan, I was prepared yesterday to have a safety meeting after breakfast, just before we "hit the road". Since there were only three of us due to the weather ( see this thread: http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19637), and we had all ridden together before on numerous occasions, it was not necessary to do so.

 

At the next monthly M&E, on April 12th, and at every subsequent get-together, we will discuss and review rider safety and group riding protocol, allowing for variances on two-lane, four-lane, and highway riding. We will also split into groups of no more than seven (depending, of course, on total number of riders), with consideration given to personal group riding experience and individual skill level.

 

I'll be glad to provide an update after the next M&E to let everyone know how things turn out. I will also provide the guidelines we put in place and remark on their viability. Believe me, what doesn't work will be fixed, and quickly...

 

Terry

I knew the first time I met you....you were smarter than the average bear.......not trying to butter you up.....just stating a fact. :thumbsup:

[ventureblue]

well put. this is part of the reason i wont ride with some of my friends. they ride way too fast and do stupid things. I's all about the ride. Get there and Get there safe.

 

I'm out

[AKRefugee]

One of the things I see quite often is riders who are uncomfortable with the pace of the group ride but don't want to appear to "wimp out" by dropping out. I also have a Sportster and ride with a gruop of fellow Sporty riders. One of the things we always do before a ride is a safety brief. During the brief we always provide a printout of the directions we will be riding. We also tell everyone "Ride your own ride, if the pace is to fast or you are not comfortable with the ride drop to the back. When you get to the tail gunner give them the go around sign and a thumbs up so they know you are okay."

 

When I first started riding with this group there were a few leaders that liked to travel just "a bit" fast. I never felt pressured to stay with the pack and the few times I did drop back I actually ended up having a few others join me. When I got to the next rest point and rejoined the group I was never chided for the slow riding and in fact usually found the next stretch was done at a bit slower and more comfortable pace.

 

The bottom line is "Ride your own ride" and if you are not comfortable with the group ride drop back or out. Don't belittle any rider that does decide to drop back or out. And let every rider know it is 100% okay to do so if that is what THEY need.

[Blackjack]

I sincerely appreciate the compliment, Kit...

Terry

[hig4s]

One of the things I see quite often is riders who are uncomfortable with the pace of the group ride but don't want to appear to "wimp out" by dropping out.

 

Exactly, And like Kit said "Hey all you dummies...listen up!!!"

 

I believe if you are not smart enough to ride alone when the pace gets too fast for your comfort, you're not smart enough to be part of the pack to begin with.

[tomfromhull]

Why did I automatically click when I read the title of the thread??

[RSV Angel]

Kit, and also Eck,

Thanks for this post. I have ridden a lot of group rides in the past also. Some good- some horrific. That being said let me reply to this. At the Vogel ride 2 yrs ago it was really not a good group ride. Why? Because as you pointed out no consideration was given to skill levels. The group was broken up by redlights before even getting out of Blairsville. Then the pace was too fast for anyone to even think of catching up. Soo I ended up kinda "leading" a group of 8-10 bikes till the first rest stop. It got a little better till the next gas stop but then kinda got broken up again. I was closer to the front but when we hit the "twisties" going over the last mt. b4 Helen the pace was again a little to fast for group riding. When I dragged my mufflers and mama got ready to 'either slow down or let me off" I pulled over to the rt. lane and started waving folks on around. I was only "keeping up" and had I been alone I wouldnt' have slowed down. But later at the motel some folks admitted that they were uncomfortable with the pace but didn't want to be trouble makers. I decided that I would not go on the "Dragon" run the next day with the group tho for this very reason.I can tell you that there were some others who decided to not go for the same reason.

Now before anyone thinks I'm "picking" I'm not--just pointing out facts.

I have ridden other rides since then with folks from here and I ride my own ride now. If you want to fly,come on by and I'll see you at the other end of the ride.

If I am alone with just a cuppla of my buddies who I ride a lot with-I might go a little too fast. But in a large group with mama on back,we will most times be back with the tail gunner.

When I lead a group I try to keep a speed that will allow most to be comfortable and when we hit the twisties I always let folks know they need to single file ride their own ride.Safety is the main priority in group rides. And as has been already pointed out not everyone is as experienced as they want to be. I remember the 1st time we rode with 6 other bikes as a couple. I was nervous as a cat. I was constantly watching in front and behind--scared I might wobble-and cause a wreck -or not get stopped quick enuff and hit the guy in front. I knew 1 person in that group and he kept saying "your doing fine" but by the time we got home that evening I was wore out from nerves. It wasn't fun --and it was a long time b4 I rode in a group of more than 3. Now I ain't as nervous,but still cautious.

Ok off my box now.

Luv ya'll

Craig

[rod]

Some one (may have been Kit) wrote a good group riding guide a while back and any one going on a group ride should read before meeting the group. Here is one we wrote for our little riding group.

 

 

Ride

ProtocolsJust To Keep Us All On The Same Page

 

Rules of the RoadThe Ride Captain/Leader must be aware of the riding skill level of the members of the group and set the pace accordingly.

 

If riders are present who are not familiar with riding with the Wanderers, those riders will be assigned to a "Ride Buddy". The intent is to introduce the "new" rider with a member of the Wanderers who will be able to answer questions, make the new rider feel comfortable, and serve as an example of our riding style. During the course of the ride, the buddy and new rider will partner up on the road with the buddy in a lead position.

 

The Ride Captain/Leader is responsible for keeping the group together at all times and arranging rest and gas stops. The Ride Captain/Leader will be aware of the number of riders and be sure that all are accounted for throughout the ride.

 

 

TO BE READ ALOUD AT THE BEGINNING OF EACH RIDE:

 

The Ride Captain/Leader will read the Rules of the Road and give an example of the basic road signals before each ride. Each rider, when seeing a signal from the rider in front of him/her, should pass that signal on to the following riders. Typical hand signals used by the Wanderers are:

http://www.sdwanderers.org/Misc%20Images/handfistani.gif

Click Here For Animated Demos

Left and right turn signals: Arm out to left for left turn or left arm bent at elbow to indicate right turn

Let's Go: Arm raised over head and hand rotating in a circular motion

Slow the pace: Arm extended, palm facing downward with up and down motion of hand

Stop: Arm extended upward clenching fist

Single File Formation: Hand raised over head with single finger pointing up

Staggered Formation: Hand raised over head with two fingers pointing up

Tighten Up Formation: Raise your left arm and repeatedly move up and down in a pulling motion.

Pointing at obstacles: Point downward on side of bike where obstacle or hazard is located

I need a rest stop (preferably one with a toilet): Arm extended to the left clenching fist

Waves to other motorcycle riders: Anything goes (except maybe the princess in a parade wave)

 

During Wanderers rides, traffic laws and regulations are to be followed at all times. This includes the wearing of helmets. Anyone refusing to obey these laws and regulations will be asked to leave the group.

 

If any rider must leave the group for any reason, whether it is during the course of the ride or at a rest stop, it is the rider's responsibility to inform the Ride Captain/Leader.

 

The Wanderers employ a staggered ride formation when road conditions permit.

A staggered formation consists of the Ride Captain/Leader in the lead position on the left side of the traffic lane. The number two rider follows at a safe distance (usually 1 to 2 seconds) behind the lead rider on the right side of the traffic lane. The number three rider is in the left side of the traffic lane 2 to 4 seconds behind rider number one and 1 to 2 seconds behind rider number two. And so it goes with all subsequent riders.

http://www.sdwanderers.org/Misc%20Images/staggerpic.gif

While riding on multi-lane roads, if there should be a car entering from or wishing to exit onto a ramp, allow them room to do so. When road conditions ( such as very narrow traffic lanes or roads with sharp turns or twists, etc.) do not permit staggered riding , the Ride Captain/Leader will signal for single file riding. A minimum of 3 to 4 second interval between riders is recommended for single file riding.

 

Some Don'ts

 

Don't crowd the rider in front of you. We're all going to get where we're going at the same time, and you can make the other guy/girl nervous if you're riding too close. If he/she has to swerve to miss an obstacle, you will want him/her to have room to do so without endangering you or other riders.

 

Don't lag too far behind the rider in front of you. Each rider needs to pay attention not only to what's in front of him, but also be aware of the rider following him. If you're falling too far behind, you could be giving a signal to the rider in front that you're in some kind of trouble. If you do experience trouble or become separated, stop. Each rider must be aware of the riders following, and upon noticing that there are no riders in sight behind must stop also. This will create a ripple affect, which will reach up to the Ride Captain/Leader who will then turn around and lead the riders back to the rest of the group.

 

Don't pass other riders of the group while riding in a group formation. If you want to ride in close proximity to a friend, or you have a preference as to which side of the traffic lane you wish to ride during staggered riding, then use the opportunity at a rest stop to arrange yourselves accordingly. Once on the road, stay in the order you started in.

If you'd like to know more than the basic information above, please check out the "Ride Captains" page by clicking the appropriate button below.

 

When you have digested that you might want to learn the importance of that person riding trail for your group.

The Wanderers encourage other groups to print these pages and use the tips as they see fit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.sdwanderers.org/Misc%20Images/textbackspacer.jpg

[Guest KitCarson]

I just read Rod's post and do like it.......and each group must figure out what works for them.....but several things......and several things I am thinking about myself........want to come up with the right thing......not always is it a good idea to bring the group back to someone with a disabled bike.....that responsibility should fall to the tailgunner, and plans already in place to have another member take his place behind the regular group......see thing is on some of these super slabs.....it is just dangerous to be besides the road.....even secondary roads.......no shoulders.....someone tries to park......well just a lot of stuff happens.........It is of my opinion that if a bike becomes disabled that bike and or buddy and the tail gunner stops to deal with the situation......and another in the group takes over as tail-gunner...

 

This is why it is so important not to have all this hap-hazard....well we are going somewhere........where......I know.....do you.......nope I do not have clue.....I just saw a bunch of bikes take off.....no one told me where we are going..... It is very important for every member in the ride to know exactly where the destination is. For many reasons....for one it lets them relax...if they for any reason get dis located from the group....hey it is not big deal.....we will catch up.......there is none of this risky catch up behavior and running high speeds to do it........if one rider feels uncomfortable with the pace.....this is well.....all they need to do is fall back and wave the tail gunner around......or if with CB just tell him.....ride your ride and catch up later.....no big deal.......or if someone does have mechanical trouble......they also can come ahead later........or the tail-gunner can come ahead and report that rider had had to have the bike towed......and will make their way home.....or go with them....one rider rides with the Tail gunner....his buddy takes the other if two up.....you go to the shop.......with the bike.......use the cell phone.....all just common sense... But you have to know where you are going.......this just somewhere stuff does not work.

 

Once last fall I went on a ride with some Wing folks here in Lexington......same old nonsense.......we went through Savannah....lot of traffic.......no one had said a peep about where we were going......the back of the group got pretty well distanced from the front.....by the time we got out of the traffic......we were hitting 90 trying to catch up.....hey this particular time......I just slowed down as I had Sandy with me......toodled along.........stopped at a quick stop got gas and a drink.......Then we went home........hell with them....excuse my french!!! If I had had a destination...I would have just proceeded on my way at my pace and eventually got there.......and grinned at any grandma comments.

 

I like a lot of these responses........I think we can get a few things done this year......to help us all........I am certainly going to give it a good try.

 

Respectfully.........Kit

[KeithR]

I just came across this video on group riding...just under 10 min long.

 

http://http.vitalstreamcdn.com/msfusa_vitalstream_com/MSF-GroupRide384.wmv

 

I couldn't get it to load with Firefox but ok with IE

 

Keith

[Guest msegelle]

This is all well and good information but has anyone got a word document that has the do's and don'ts for group riding?

I think that if we could share this kind of information with our fellow group riders we could all so to speak be on the same page when we all are riding together.

I'd like to have copies with me when I get into a group ride say on a poker run or with some new rider I've not riden with so we can all ride safely.

 

Just asking?

:whistling:I'd write one myself but don't have enought experencie under my belt to do it right.

 

My two cents.................

 

Mark

[Stratcat]

This letter is meant with the best of intentions.......the word dummy is used affectionately....I do care about all of you......and it is my goal this year to try to help some of you learn to ride safer....yea I am not an angel myself......have those times with I like to play too.......but this is important, I think you should listen to it.

 

Great stuff well written Kit!

[Guest KitCarson]

This is all well and good information but has anyone got a word document that has the do's and don'ts for group riding?

I think that if we could share this kind of information with our fellow group riders we could all so to speak be on the same page when we all are riding together.

I'd like to have copies with me when I get into a group ride say on a poker run or with some new rider I've not riden with so we can all ride safely.

 

Just asking?

:whistling:I'd write one myself but don't have enought experencie under my belt to do it right.

 

My two cents.................

 

Mark

QUICK TIPS: MSF’s Guide to Group Riding

Motorcycling is primarily a solo activity, but for many, riding as a group -- whether with friends on a Sunday morning ride or with an organized motorcycle rally -- is the epitome of the motorcycling experience. Here are some tips to help ensure a fun and safe group ride:

Arrive prepared. Arrive on time with a full gas tank.

Hold a riders’ meeting. Discuss things like the route, rest and fuel stops, and hand signals (see diagrams on next page). Assign a lead and sweep (tail) rider. Both should be experienced riders who are well-versed in group riding procedures. The leader should assess everyone’s riding skills and the group’s riding style.

Keep the group to a manageable size, ideally five to seven riders. If necessary, break the group into smaller sub-groups, each with a lead and sweep rider.

Ride prepared. At least one rider in each group should pack a cell phone, first-aid kit, and full tool kit, so the group is prepared for any problem that they might encounter.

Ride in formation. The staggered riding formation (see diagram below) allows a proper space cushion between motorcycles so that each rider has enough time and space to maneuver and to react to hazards. The leader rides in the left third of the lane, while the next rider stays at least one second behind in the right third of the lane; the rest of the group follows the same pattern. A single-file formation is preferred on a curvy road, under conditions of poor visibility or poor road surfaces, entering/leaving highways, or other situations where an increased space cushion or maneuvering room is needed.

Avoid side-by-side formations, as they reduce the space cushion. If you suddenly needed to swerve to avoid a hazard, you would not have room to do so. You don’t want handlebars to get entangled.

Periodically check the riders following in your rear view mirror. If you see a rider falling behind, slow down so they may catch up. If all the riders in the group use this technique, the group should be able to maintain a fairly steady speed without pressure to ride too fast to catch up.

If you’re separated from the group, don’t panic. Your group should have a pre-planned procedure in place to regroup. Don’t break the law or ride beyond your skills to catch up.

For mechanical or medical problems, use a cell phone to call for assistance as the situation warrants.

MSF’s Guide to Group Riding: Hand Signals

http://www.msf-usa.org 4/05

 

This will get you started. When riding with just a few friends say two to five or six friends who know each other well.....and have rode together a lot......some of this can by-passed, no set of rules or words on paper will ever teach a new rider how to ride in a group.....only experience will teach him or her that. You can always in a nice way give them pointers.....and it is up to the experienced riders to look out for the new person and themselves until they learn.

 

When you get into large rides and large group rides....item two becomes very important. Hold a riders meeting before the ride......make sure everyone knows where the final stop is...and what the stops along the way are.......make them aware of everything......pick the leader and tail-gunner and there should also be a buddy rider. Both the tail-gunner and buddy should be solo riders and not two up....so if a bike does have trouble....and that bike is a two up......they can give them a ride if need be. Replacements should be pre-picked also.

Then split the large groups up into little groups........with all of the above in each group.....then slowly once back out on the main roads bring the small groups back together.......this way everyone can negotiate the traffic and arrive back at the mother group safely........It is great fun to have 30 to 100 bikes on the road all at once....people taking photos.....but you should do it safely. and obey the speed limits and traffic laws....and have fun....

 

This nonsense of going to a meet and eat.......one person knowing the way......twenty to thirty bikes ........trying to play catch up......not having a clue where you are going....leaders cutting across four lanes of traffic.......coming up to a yellow light and zipping through it.....this is the nonsense I am really talking about. It is all just basic common sense.....none of it is hard to do.......and every bit of it is just having respect for each other........and leaving that I am away from home and now I am macho man attitude at home.......leave it in a drawer.

 

You can also go to any Motorcycle Safety Foundation site and find printed guide lines made up by folks who do this professionally.......

 

Hope this helps you.........Kit