Dave77459 Posted January 29, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 29, 2011 ... of his local Yamaha PRO dealership, and states he is here because the engine on his RSTD blew up. The service manager smiles and says, "you are kidding, right?" The man assures him that he is not. Maybe it wasn't an explosion, but there was a cloud of oil and his engine lost power. It was exciting to get to the shoulder from the left lane, dodging between cars in the right. So then the man tells the manager that he and a buddy had seen the hole in a mirror, and it is in the front of the engine, near the seam of the lower and upper case. The service manager is filled with wonder, because he'd never heard of a hole in a RSTD or Venture in his 12 years of experience with Yamaha. Later, the man comes in to sign the agreement to pay 6 hours/$600 if the diagnostic determines that the fault isn't covered by the warranty. He overhears the head technician exclaim in disbelief that there is a hole, because the service manager had just told him so. Clearly both the tech and the manager are excited at the extremely novel problem. The man's friend later overhears the tech in the garage, telling another wrench about the exciting news. The service manager explains that they service bikes FIFO, and that it will be the end of the next week before they can get to the man's bike. He warns the man that it could take over three weeks to complete the repair. The man says that would be speedy indeed, because his club members thought it would be closer to eight weeks. The service manager looks down, abashed, and concedes that scenario is more likely. The man and his friend leave the bike behind, after discussing with the service manager how members of the club would want to lay eyes on the destroyed engine, to see themselves what had happened. This will be done, it is agreed, unless Yamaha requires the parts to be sent for their analysis. Thus ends the opening stages of Roxie's repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted January 29, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 29, 2011 And so the saga continues.......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted January 29, 2011 Share #3 Posted January 29, 2011 6 hours/$600 dollars ?? Just to look at it, then maybe deny the claim. Did they kiss you right after telling you they were going to screw you? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave77459 Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted January 29, 2011 And so the saga continues.......................... The only thing I was surprised about was the idea that it could be done in 3 weeks. Moonbattery, that. 6 hours/$600 dollars ?? Just to look at it, then maybe deny the claim. Did they kiss you right after telling you they were going to screw you? Gary How much time would you think it would take to take an engine out a 2nd Gen, open it up, and diagnose the cause of a hole? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted January 29, 2011 Share #5 Posted January 29, 2011 How much time would you think it would take to take an engine out a 2nd Gen, open it up, and diagnose the cause of a hole? Dave Six hours seems to be a reasonable amount of time to do that work. But I am not really sure what they are thinking they are going to see in there except a snapped rod, a hole in the case from said rod, a mangled piston from being forced into the heads and some certainly bent valves. Possibly a bent crankshaft as well. It's not like there are any user maintenance items inside the motor. Aside from on board diagnostics of a computers memory, which I have not heard of the RSV having, and your statements the bike had oil, was not being abused etc., what are they going to see in there? If it's under warranty, it should be covered. This is assuming you have reasonable records and haven't done anything radical to the bike like after market pipes or similar mods. Trailer hitch you mentioned doesn't seem like it would void warranty outright. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave77459 Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share #6 Posted January 29, 2011 *snip* But I am not really sure what they are thinking they are going to see in there except... *snip* Gary I think they are being prudent. I can't really blame them for wanting to not be on the hook if Yamaha says it isn't covered by the warranty. It's kinda scary to be on the hook for that kind of money, and if I think so, they should too. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted January 29, 2011 Share #7 Posted January 29, 2011 Seems odd to me that you are having to 'warranty' that the work is in warranty. I would think that the dealer should take a few pictures and send those off to Yamaha, start the repair/replacement, and then put in the claim. When my 2 month old HD ElectraGlide had a major engine failure during the warranty period on the way to Sturgis in 2000, the dealership in Pueblo took it in, spent 4 days on the bike (pulled the engine completely out), repaired it, and then sent me on my way. No money changed hands at all. I dont remember any clauses in the warranty stating that the owner must post what amounts to a good faith 'deposit' before a major warranty repair. But...they kind've have you over a barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecker Posted January 29, 2011 Share #8 Posted January 29, 2011 This is pretty standard procedure to have the customer pay up front for the tear down. The dealership has to pay the mechanic, and if Yamaha, for some strange reason, does not cover the repairs, then the dealership is left holding the bag. Remember, Yamaha is covering the warranty not the dealership. Yamaha is wanting to see the exact failure before they will approve or deny coverage, thusly the engine needs to be removed and torn down first. Once Yamaha sees that there was a part failure and approves repairs under warranty, you should recieve a refund. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezyRider Posted January 29, 2011 Share #9 Posted January 29, 2011 This is pretty standard procedure to have the customer pay up front for the tear down. The dealership has to pay the mechanic, and if Yamaha, for some strange reason, does not cover the repairs, then the dealership is left holding the bag. Remember, Yamaha is covering the warranty not the dealership. Yamaha is wanting to see the exact failure before they will approve or deny coverage, thusly the engine needs to be removed and torn down first. Once Yamaha sees that there was a part failure and approves repairs under warranty, you should recieve a refund. Dave Seems like Dave actually did NOT pay anything up front.....he just signed an agreement to pay if Yamaha denies warranty coverage. Pretty standard stuff these days I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave77459 Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted January 29, 2011 Seems like Dave actually did NOT pay anything up front.....he just signed an agreement to pay if Yamaha denies warranty coverage. Pretty standard stuff these days I'd say. That is exactly right. I didn't pay anything, and hopefully won't. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted January 29, 2011 Share #11 Posted January 29, 2011 Yep, this is pretty standard in most service industries. Works the same way in my business. My service time is worth $225/hr. If is spend 6 hours diagnosing the cause of a problem and it turns out not being covered by the warranty or service agreement, who pays for that time? It certainly is not the service group's fault it is not covered. The cost burden falls to the customer. What are you gonna' do? Let it sit in the garage for fear of having to pay to get it fixed? Don't think so. Even if you decided to fix it yourself you would end up spending much more and still not be sure you found everything that was wrong inside the motor. All of this discussion will end as mute chatter anyways. We all know it will be covered under warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted January 29, 2011 Share #12 Posted January 29, 2011 My service time is worth $225/hr. Gee...do you want to adopt me? Question is not what you feel it is worth...but how much you actually get paid! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidlifeVenture Posted January 29, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 29, 2011 Dang we only bill $140 an hour working $85 an hour travel but we require a PO even if it is thought to be warranty seems to be SOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7Goose Posted January 29, 2011 Share #14 Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) Yep, this is pretty standard in most service industries. Works the same way in my business. My service time is worth $225/hr. If is spend 6 hours diagnosing the cause of a problem and it turns out not being covered by the warranty or service agreement, who pays for that time? It certainly is not the service group's fault it is not covered. The cost burden falls to the customer. That is a blanket statement with which I cannot agree. While there are some things that are not (and should not be) covered by the warranty, and those would not be the fault of the service group, the dealer has almost 100% control over what IS actually covered. This bike has a 5-year unlimited mile warranty that covers virtually everything, and it all rests on what the dealer tells the manufacturer. It is sad to say that there have been plenty of dishonest dealers, reported here by various owners, who have blatantly lied about what is covered, apparently in an effort to steal lots of money from their customers for retail repair rates on a covered machine. Of course any mechanic should be paid for their diagnostic time if the repair is actually not covered, but IMHO, no honest dealer will ask for that money up front. As long as they properly advise the customer of the risk, all states have established laws for a mechanic to place a lien on a vehicle if the customer declines to pay for work performed. The only possible excuse for an up-front payment is if the customer asks for work that will cost more than the estimated value of the vehicle. Goose Edited January 29, 2011 by V7Goose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBeaver Posted January 29, 2011 Share #15 Posted January 29, 2011 ... of his local Yamaha PRO dealership, and states he is here because the engine on his RSTD blew up. The service manager smiles and says, "you are kidding, right?" The man assures him that he is not. Maybe it wasn't an explosion, but there was a cloud of oil and his engine lost power. It was exciting to get to the shoulder from the left lane, dodging between cars in the right. So then the man tells the manager that he and a buddy had seen the hole in a mirror, and it is in the front of the engine, near the seam of the lower and upper case. The service manager is filled with wonder, because he'd never heard of a hole in a RSTD or Venture in his 12 years of experience with Yamaha. Later, the man comes in to sign the agreement to pay 6 hours/$600 if the diagnostic determines that the fault isn't covered by the warranty. He overhears the head technician exclaim in disbelief that there is a hole, because the service manager had just told him so. Clearly both the tech and the manager are excited at the extremely novel problem. The man's friend later overhears the tech in the garage, telling another wrench about the exciting news. The service manager explains that they service bikes FIFO, and that it will be the end of the next week before they can get to the man's bike. He warns the man that it could take over three weeks to complete the repair. The man says that would be speedy indeed, because his club members thought it would be closer to eight weeks. The service manager looks down, abashed, and concedes that scenario is more likely. The man and his friend leave the bike behind, after discussing with the service manager how members of the club would want to lay eyes on the destroyed engine, to see themselves what had happened. This will be done, it is agreed, unless Yamaha requires the parts to be sent for their analysis. Thus ends the opening stages of Roxie's repair. Sorry to hear about Roxie BUT sure glad it happened during the warranty period. Hopefully this dealer will do you right THE FIRST time with minimal shenanigans... Wonder if you could get a loner bike while yours is being repaired. :think: (Not being 100% serious about the last comment folks, so chill) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted January 29, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 29, 2011 Gee...do you want to adopt me? Question is not what you feel it is worth...but how much you actually get paid! LOL Just to clarify... We bill $225/hr labor $100/hr travel. I certainly don't get paid that much! My time is actually worth what ever I can get paid for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zfrebird4 Posted January 30, 2011 Share #17 Posted January 30, 2011 ... 1st gen, :mo money:86 VR! She still purrs :Dat close to 80,000! Jack T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickster Posted January 30, 2011 Share #18 Posted January 30, 2011 Pull the plug and use a bore scope first....they do have one right?.....if the case has a hole in it...done...what else is there to factor in?.....make sure there is oil in it and start it up....$600 bucks to diagnose it is ridiculous.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradT Posted January 30, 2011 Share #19 Posted January 30, 2011 Paying or agreeing to pay up front does seem a little strange to me. I am not sure what the warranty says, but our equipment warranty states that abuse is not covered and if it is found to be abused the customer has to pay. When our equipment has a major failure we send our service techs to the problem to help identify what caused the problem. The rock crusher is repaired as quick as possible and then the service report is used by management to determine if it will be covered. If it was abused we send a bill to the customer. Good luck hope all goes well Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave77459 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted January 30, 2011 Of course any mechanic should be paid for their diagnostic time if the repair is actually not covered, but IMHO, no honest dealer will ask for that money up front. *heavy snipping* I guess I am wondering if everyone understands that I didn't pay anything. I just agreed to pay if the work is not covered. Sometimes conversations evolve and statements are made to others, and ideas get muddied. I hope the work is covered, and I've had no indications that it won't be. I'm just a worry wort, and trying to keep my hand on my wallet. I love that most y'all are essentially jumping to my defense. What a great group! I am not sure about those first gen owners who have put on 50% more miles, but took 8 times longer to do so. Either the bike is too slow to accumulate miles at a 2nd gen rate, or it is too uncomfortable to ride. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBeaver Posted January 30, 2011 Share #21 Posted January 30, 2011 I guess I am wondering if everyone understands that I didn't pay anything. I just agreed to pay if the work is not covered. Sometimes conversations evolve and statements are made to others, and ideas get muddied. I hope the work is covered, and I've had no indications that it won't be. I'm just a worry wort, and trying to keep my hand on my wallet. ... Dave: For what it is worth I thought your initial statement was crystal clear as to what it is you signed and agreed to. After reading through everyone's comments a second time, I too am confused as to how it went a-rye so quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PlaneCrazy Posted January 30, 2011 Share #22 Posted January 30, 2011 I hope you get your bike back in tip top shape without too many headaches besides the wait. These mechanics need to watch Star Trek. You are supposed to tell the captain that the repairs are going to take 3 weeks and then do it in 1 to really impress the hell of him As for the diagnosis. I fix airplanes not bikes(except as a hobby ) but there's a lot more then just taking a peak in there to figure things out. They can get the oil tested and that analysis can tell them a lot just by what material they find. That can tell them if a bearing wore out or if something steel broke, etc. They will also need to drain and wipe out the case and look at whatever pieces they find in there. They also want to rule out any owner faults ... for example, finding a craftsman socket in the crankcase might make them decide not to warranty it Finally, they can examine the part that failed directly.. just how the edge of the broken area looks can tell a lot. If there was a pre-existing stress fracture that spread and then failed, it looks different then if the part was just over-stressed and failed all at once. There's also tell tale signs of heat that might be present if there was a blockage in one of the oil passages. Granted, some shops and some mechanics might do no more then open the case up, see that a rod is broken and leave it at that. But any mechanic worth his license will try and find a root cause, and the fact that everyone at this dealership seems so surprised to see a 2nd gen engine that blew up, they will probably go the whole 9 yards and try to figure out why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Swifty Posted January 30, 2011 Share #23 Posted January 30, 2011 1 gen owners who have put on 50% more miles, but took 8 times longer to do so. Either the bike is too slow to accumulate miles at a 2nd gen rate, or it is too uncomfortable to ride. Dave ...ahem...last 6 years, 230,000KMS... Because of the way that I've seen SOME of these 2nd gen owners lugging their engines, maybe we should all be asking Dave how much he's done that! This is going to be a great story for future cannon fodder, thanks Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponch Posted January 30, 2011 Share #24 Posted January 30, 2011 Dave (Swifty) I love the banter between G1 & G2 owners, but I can attest that dave (Dave77459) doesn't lug. He's an Iron butter that loves to ride hard. He maintains the RSTD very well and the bike looks and ran like new. ... Dave (Ponch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradT Posted January 31, 2011 Share #25 Posted January 31, 2011 Hey Ponch, Swifty's just upset he went ahead and wore one out. Well beat up the tranny anyway Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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