Relays & wiring 101

[dingy]

I have made a write up covering some basics on the use and installation of relays in motorcycles.

 

I worked in railroad signaling for 15 years and most of this time I was a signal circuit design engineer. I primarily dealt with relay based design involving signaling and highway crossing protection. During this time, I gained some knowledge concerning relays and the design of relay based circuits.

 

The write up refers primarily with the relays used in Ventures. It does not include any information regarding the starting solenoid or flasher relays.

 

I have included some basic information and definitions regarding relays.

 

There are pictures of the internal workings of Venture and automotive style accessory relays that are available at various auto parts stores.

 

Also included is some basic information involved in wiring and fuse size selection.

 

I have included examples of several practical applications of relays involving Ventures including:

 

Driving lamp addition

Passing Lamp addition for RSV’s

Headlight cut-out when starting for RSV’s

Air horn addition

Ignition switch bypass modification for RSV’s

 

To open the PDF file, click on file name shown in blue below.

 

Relays 101.pdf

 

 

 

[Black Owl]

Very nice write up. Informative and very easy to read and understand.

Thanks for sharing.

[Cougar]

EXCELLENT Thanks! perfect timing. going to tear bike apart

and add a few relays this coming month.

[Squeeze]

That's a wonderful Write-up.

 

You're truely an Asset on our Board when it comes to electrical Stuff and how to explain it.

 

Thank you very much for taking your Time and bring this together.

 

 

:thumbsup2:

[Owen]

Nicely done! Thank you for the hard work!

[Yammer Dan]

Between you and Squeeze (I've peeked in his brain) I'm totally confused!!! Good thing winter is coming..(did I say that?)

 

I'm so scared of electric I use matches to keep from turning on a flashlight!!!

 

And I used to run up and down poles with a lot of juice up there. Have held 36,000 volts in my hands.

 

And on the other end have been shot for 5 seconds with 50,000 volts.

 

I have lights & Horn to do this winter. Might be interesting.

What you want to bet I turn lights on and horn blows?

Push horn button and lights come on...

 

"UGLY" may never be the same!!

[Ponch]

Have you looked at the four way flasher circuit? I've been thinking about a way to energize the flashers with out the ignition being on. I tried bypassing the switch by supplying 12v to the brown wire that feeds the 4ways, but it turns on the headlight (and a few other things, I think) as well.

Whatch think?

[Venturous Randy]

Have you looked at the four way flasher circuit? I've been thinking about a way to energize the flashers with out the ignition being on. I tried bypassing the switch by supplying 12v to the brown wire that feeds the 4ways, but it turns on the headlight (and a few other things, I think) as well.

 

Whatch think?

 

I believe on 1st gens, the emergency flashers work with the ignition off.

RandyA

[LilBeaver]

:clap2:

 

Thanks a lot!!!

[rumboogy]

I didn't see this asked (or answered anywhere)...but what is the advantage of a relay switch? I know there is an advantage...just wanna know what it is.

 

Thanks,

 

Wally

[naturbar]

I didn't see this asked (or answered anywhere)...but what is the advantage of a relay switch? I know there is an advantage...just wanna know what it is.

 

Thanks,

 

Wally

 

the easy answer is that it 'carries' the load (current) for the peripheral device which you may add. when 'switching' something 'on' there generally is a current spike and a relay of correct amperage handles that nicely. the current to operate a relay in our application is relatively low and thus allow smaller gauge wire to energize the coil. i'm certain others will offer more/better explanations.

 

buz

[dingy]

Have you looked at the four way flasher circuit? I've been thinking about a way to energize the flashers with out the ignition being on. I tried bypassing the switch by supplying 12v to the brown wire that feeds the 4ways, but it turns on the headlight (and a few other things, I think) as well.

 

Whatch think?

 

 

What appears to happen when you put positive battery on the Br wire feeding the hazard relay, is that energy back feeds through the signal fuse and in turn energizes the all of the fuses tied to the Br/L wire coming out of the key switch.

 

I don't have an RSV available to try something out.

 

Look at the circuit in the attached PDF file. The relay to the far left is added. The Br wire is cut where I noted.

 

This circuit will energize the relay whenever the hazard button is closed and feed energy to only the flasher system. This will work with the key off.

 

The tap into the R wire that I showed by the Rectifier /Regulator could be done at any point along the R wire circuit. It would possibly be easy to do at the Condenser leg of this circuit. The wire to the condenser is probably lighter gauge than the main R wire, thus easier to solder to.

 

I do not know the circuitry inside of the hazard or flasher relays themselves.

 

 

Gary

[dingy]

I didn't see this asked (or answered anywhere)...but what is the advantage of a relay switch? I know there is an advantage...just wanna know what it is.

 

Thanks,

 

Wally

 

the easy answer is that it 'carries' the load (current) for the peripheral device which you may add. when 'switching' something 'on' there generally is a current spike and a relay of correct amperage handles that nicely. the current to operate a relay in our application is relatively low and thus allow smaller gauge wire to energize the coil. i'm certain others will offer more/better explanations.

 

buz

 

 

What Buz said is correct.

 

In the first sentence of the write up I did I said " Basically, a relay is an electrically operated, remotely controlled switch"

 

The single pole relays that are described in that write up do not allow much in the way of complex circuitry. I have worked with relays in the past that had eight sets of contacts operated by a single coil circuit. With this size relay, the possibilities are greatly expanded .

 

Take a look at the RSV Flasher Modification post above. The use of a Single Pole Double Throw relay inserted into the existing wiring allows the basic function of bike to remain the same. The 4 ways still work when the hazard button is pressed as before. But with this modification, and with no other switches being added, the operation of the circuit is changed. Now the circuit can work with the key off, and it overcomes the problem Ponch was having by causing the lights to come on.

 

For the most part, anything that can be accomplished with a Single pole relay can be accomplished with a standard On/off switch with sufficient current capacities. A relay allows electrical control of these circuits without other user intervention.

 

Gary

Edited November 27, 2009 by dingy
spelling

[Ponch]

What appears to happen when you put positive battery on the Br wire feeding the hazard relay, is that energy back feeds through the signal fuse and in turn energizes the all of the fuses tied to the Br/L wire coming out of the key switch.

 

I don't have an RSV available to try something out.

 

Look at the circuit in the attached PDF file. The relay to the far left is added. The Br wire is cut where I noted.

 

This circuit will energize the relay whenever the hazard button is closed and feed energy to only the flasher system. This will work with the key off.

 

The tap into the R wire that I showed by the Rectifier /Regulator could be done at any point along the R wire circuit. It would possibly be easy to do at the Condenser leg of this circuit. The wire to the condenser is probably lighter gauge than the main R wire, thus easier to solder to.

 

I do not know the circuitry inside of the hazard or flasher relays themselves.

 

 

Gary

 

Thanks, I'll try the mod this weekend.

[dingy]

What appears to happen when you put positive battery on the Br wire feeding the hazard relay, is that energy back feeds through the signal fuse and in turn energizes the all of the fuses tied to the Br/L wire coming out of the key switch.

 

I don't have an RSV available to try something out.

 

Look at the circuit in the attached PDF file. The relay to the far left is added. The Br wire is cut where I noted.

 

This circuit will energize the relay whenever the hazard button is closed and feed energy to only the flasher system. This will work with the key off.

 

The tap into the R wire that I showed by the Rectifier /Regulator could be done at any point along the R wire circuit. It would possibly be easy to do at the Condenser leg of this circuit. The wire to the condenser is probably lighter gauge than the main R wire, thus easier to solder to.

 

I do not know the circuitry inside of the hazard or flasher relays themselves.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

Having taken a look at the complete schematic I posted for the RSV's (one with all of the wire connectors on it)

 

[ame=http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42357]2nd Gen Wiring Schematics 99-09 RSV[/ame]

 

 

I still think this will work, but the point in the circuit to insert it is 'Fuzzy"

 

A schematic is a representation of the circuits. It is not however a point to point wiring diagram. The connections in the wiring harness may not be exactly as shown on the schematic. What I am trying to say is that I may show a wire connection near the headlight for example, on wire 'XYZ' when in actuality that connection in the wiring harness is by the fuse block, still on wire 'XYZ'.

 

Another way of looking at this is assume a wire going from point A to point B. This is easy, one way. Now add a point C. Does the wire for point C come from point A, or point B, or in between the two points. The more points in a circuit loop, the number of potential paths is increased.

 

This means that there could be circuit loops inside the wiring harness that I am unaware of. An example is the ground loop I show. I know this is not actually what is in the wiring harness. Electrically it is correct though. (I hope !!)

 

Attached is a portion of the 'Full' schematic from the upper left corner. I have noted point to insert circuit shown on previous post. Only way to be sure this is right is to trace the Br wires coming out of the Flasher and Hazard relays and find where they are connected. This may be as easy as one or the other having two Br wires coming out of the connector that is on them or it may be inside the taped portion of the wiring harness. Again, not having a RSV makes this difficult for me to pin down.

 

Gary

Edited November 27, 2009 by dingy
spelling

[Yammer Dan]

So a relay is kind of like a synchronizer in a tranny? Keeps thing sliding in and out without clashing and grinding??

[IH Truck Guy]

The file opened up with a bunch of random letters...Said it was default code...WTH

[dingy]

PM me your email & I will send it to you.

 

I can either send in PDF or MS Word 2003 format.

 

Gary

[dingy]

So a relay is kind of like a synchronizer in a tranny? Keeps thing sliding in and out without clashing and grinding??

 

 

You ain't rite boy.

 

Better stick to the matches idea.

[Yammer Dan]

You ain't rite boy.

 

Better stick to the matches idea.

 

 

Never claimed to be and those that know me will back me up on that!!

[Ponch]

I tried the bypass today using Gary's schematic for adding a relay. I couldn't get it to work. Apparantly there is some circuit inside the Hazard relay that is compounded in another circuit.

Gary worked with me over the phone and we determined that the relay was fine. We took the relay out and bypassed the power from the ignition switch. We applied 12v straight from the battery and it wouldn't work with the ignition off. With 12v from the battery applied and the ignition on, the 4ways worked.

On to plan C. (if we can think of a plan C)

[warthogcrewchief]

Thanks for the great info! I'm looking to add two Wolo Bad Boy (air) horns onto my bike after she's road worthy. I'm looking to replace the stock horn units with these and am thinking the factory circuits have a relay built into it somewhere. Is this correct?

 

If not, then I guess I'll have to use the factory wires connecting to the horns and connect them to new relays, and then connect the positive and negative connections of the new horns to the two remaining plugs.

 

Any help on this would be great (I can read the schematics provided in the "Relay 101" piece).

 

HINT: If you're looking to buy these horns, Amazon.com has them listed at about half the factory price!

[dingy]

Thanks for the great info! I'm looking to add two Wolo Bad Boy (air) horns onto my bike after she's road worthy. I'm looking to replace the stock horn units with these and am thinking the factory circuits have a relay built into it somewhere. Is this correct?

 

If not, then I guess I'll have to use the factory wires connecting to the horns and connect them to new relays, and then connect the positive and negative connections of the new horns to the two remaining plugs.

 

Any help on this would be great (I can read the schematics provided in the "Relay 101" piece).

 

HINT: If you're looking to buy these horns, Amazon.com has them listed at about half the factory price!

 

 

When I redrew the schematics that are in the tech section now, I did not see a horn relay on any stock Venture.

 

 

[ame=http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42384]1st Gen Wiring Schematics 1983 - 1993 - VentureRider.Org[/ame]

 

 

 

 

Link above to 1st Gen schematics.

 

Gary

Edited November 29, 2009 by dingy
fixed link

[naturbar]

"Gary worked with me over the phone and we determined that the relay was fine. We took the relay out and bypassed the power from the ignition switch. We applied 12v straight from the battery and it wouldn't work with the ignition off. With 12v from the battery applied and the ignition on, the 4ways worked.

 

On to plan C. (if we can think of a plan C)".................

 

apparently a 'ground' is being supplied to the flashers when the ignition switch in 'on'. retry the straight 12 volts and add a ground, see if that makes them flash. if that works then you can use a DPDT relay and switch B+ and ground at the same time....possibly plan C ?

[RandyR]

Was looking at this flasher wo/key-on thread. Has someone gotten this to work OK?

 

If so, is there an updated schematic?

 

tia