Starter engage clutch and 20/50 oil

[Snaggletooth]

Here is a weird one. First of all I might mention my engage clutch was new this spring along with the 72 tooth gear and the battery is not suspect at all.

 

This just started after the last oil change from 10/40 to 20/50 oil, that was the day before this problem started.

 

The bike has always started great. Touch of a button. Hot or cold. Since the change to 20/50, which I have never used before, and when the temps drop down into the mid 40's or so the bike has been difficult to start in the mornings and after long cooling off time where it gets back to cold to the touch.

 

What I am finding is the starter is spinng but the engine is not turning when it's cold. No compression so no spark. It seems the engage clutch is not taking hold. After say 5 minutes of on and off cranking it will catch and fires right up. After it warms up a bit I have no problems at all with it starting again. If I leave the bike parked overnight I go through the same thing in the morning when it's cool out. After the first cold start, it's fine again.

 

What this tells me is the the cold oil might be thick enough to keep the pawls from engaging properly to grip the face of the 72 tooth ring gear. But with that in mind as the engine warms up the oil should be a bit thicker. However the oil would be more fluid as it heats up so that may be a null point.

 

When the engine is warmed up or up to running temps it starts with a touch of the switch. Cold. not so good until the engage clutch has been spinning for a while. Then it hits and off we go.

 

By the way.....the engage clutch is quiet. None of the knocking common with a failure.

 

So, anybody else run into this?

 

There ya go Condor. You wanted some new problems. I'm here for ya buddy.

 

Mike

[Dano]

Hey Mike, I just switched to Pennzoil 20/50 on my last change, more so for the hot weather and in town riding I've been doing lately, to save fuel on running the 1 ton van. I've not experienced the starter problems you're having, though. No slippage on the starter clutch at all, unless it's hot from just running and I'm on a compression stroke. It'll jump around a bit then.

This winter I'm going to pull off the flywheel/rotor and do a starter clutch upgrade that Squeeze has designed and perfected for the VMax guys. I have the tooling that Squeeze has designed to modify the rotor for the install of the starter clutch mod (pawls all the way around the starter clutch gear instead of the 3 that stock provides), therefore I will never have starter clutch problems again. Unfortunately, sounds like you've already invested in a new starter clutch, or I would suggest you send your rotor to me over the winter and let me do the mod for you.

Good luck in determining the solution, let us know!

 

Dano

[Ozlander]

Been using 20-50 in my VR's since '83 and habe never had a starter clutch problem.

 

Used to ride to work most of the winter, starter always worked, heater never did.

[Dano]

heater never did.

 

 

 

Now that right there is funny!!!

[bobcat]

For what its worth....I've likewise have never had trouble using 20/50...I've used Castrol GTX 20/50 for well over 25 years in both my bikes...During the heart of winter I will drop the wt to 10/40 but as soon as thats over I'm back to using 20/50..

[Snaggletooth]

Hey Dano.

 

Now that sounds like an idea. I just happen to have a good rotor sitting around waiting for the one I have to go bad. What are the odds of that?

 

So is Squeeze making the engage clutch himself or does he have something else cooking?

 

So I'll keep looking into this slippery situation and see what I can figure out.

 

Thanks guys

 

Mike

[Dano]

Not at liberty to say (under penalty of NOT being able to stay at his house if I make it over there!), but I've seen the parts myself and they are top-notch. The Vmax boys keep tearing out the standard starter clutches, and this is a fix-all end-all repair. I am handling the mods for him in the American continents.

 

I just need the rotor and $275, will send you back a complete unit ready to install with new upgraded starter clutch and 72th gear. Pretty much guarenteed to work forever! (it IS a 1st gen, after all!). But since you have a pretty new ring gear, we may not have to replace it, we'll have to examine it for any damage around the collar.

 

Dano

[Squeeze]

Mike, as i read to Description, it's sad to say, but i think the 72th Wheel is shot on the long Term anyway. If the "thick Oil" or something else in the Starter Clutch Area caused the Culprit, doesn't matter anymore. If you spun the the Clutch for a extended Period of Time or the Clutch stayed engaged and was driven by the Crank Shaft, the Connection Area on the Collar is ruined and will start to fail sooner than later.

 

I'm sorry to say, but the stock 1Gen 72th Wheel (or Vmax) won't fit to the updated Starter Clutch. The "Clutch Area" (Collar) has a different Diameter. The Upgrade-Kit contents a new Starter Clutch Assembly which operates on 18 Elipse-shaped Clutch Parts instead of 3 Rollers on a Vmax/1Gen stock Clutch. Also, the mounting of this Clutch Assembly is different, so the Flywheel needs to be modified to accept the new Assembly. Because you need a special designed Jig and some specal Tools, this is not what a average Guy has at home, you'll need to send the Flywheel to Dan and let him do the Job.

 

I designed the Mod mostly for my Vmax Buddies, because it's a major Hassle there, some of them did go through 3 or 4 complete new Assemblies within 8 Years. Undisputed Record Holder is a Guy which runs a 1600 cc high compression Motor with EFI and chain drive converted Max. The Bike ate 3 Starter Clutches per Season(8 Months). With the Help of my Setup the Oddessy PC 680 broke down ....

[Snaggletooth]

Hey Lutz!

 

Good to hear from you. I just came in from washing up. I tried the bike this morning and the same thing. Dead cold......no catchy!

 

I pulled the cover and the rotor off to see what was going on. As soon as I got the rotor and gear off I wrapped them in cheese cloth and took it down to my shop to get a good look at it. I rinsed it still wrapped in the cheese cloth to catch anything that might be loose. Found nothing. The 72 tooth gear looks like it did the day I installed it. It was NOS when I bought it and so was the engage clutch. The gear collar surface is great and no signs of cracking or damage of any kind. No cracks around base of collar. The clutch body shows no cracks nor were the staked bolts loose at all.

 

Rollers: All good.

Springs: No bends or stretch.

Pins: No damage or wear.

 

Idler gears: Still look new. No wear. (also NOS this spring)

 

So I threw it back together with the old gaskets and new bolts staked in the rotor. I did check the inside of the engine case for any signs of something that might have been flopping around in there.....nuttin.

 

Filled it up with 10/40 and hit the switch. Caught on the first try dead cold. Started it about 7 or 8 times and let it run for a few minutes then shut it down and try again. It hit every time. I then let it idle for about 20 minutes and shut it down and tried again. Good to go.

 

I'm going to let it sit overnight and see what happens in the morning. I may have let the gremlin out when I opened the case. LOL! Who knows?

 

I've put about 5,000 miles on the bike since I installed the new engage clutch along with the Buckeye upgrade stator. Haven't had problem one until I changed the oil to 20/50. As the guys have reported that should not be the problem but it was the first thing I thought of as it was the only things that had changed.

 

Well other than giving the fuel tank the epoxy liner. But that is another story and should play no part in this problem.

 

As far as running the starter for extended periods of time.....not so much. I'd give it a 5 second crank and wait maybe 30 seconds before trying again. Maybe 10 or 15 tries each morning before it would catch. After it warmed up........no more problem.

 

So whatever it was may be gone. I'll know more tomorrow morning.

 

Thanks guys.

 

Mike

[Squeeze]

Mike, to be honest, it's the first Time i hear thick Oil may be (actually is, as it looks now) hindering this one-Way-Clutch to do the Job. And I'm looking at this Starter Clutch Culprit since 3 Years or so.

 

The Damage will be on the inner Area on the 72th Wheel were the Rollers run onto. The Rollers as well as the Contact Area develop flat Spots and there's where the Trouble starts to go downhill.

 

I sure hope the thinner Oil will work for.

[Snaggletooth]

Hey again Squeeze.

 

I gotta tell ya.....I'm a bit baffled on this one. It really makes no sense even with the heavier oil. 10W.....to 20W.....not all that much difference. And it's not like it's dropping below zero overnight.

 

I really expected to find a broken spring or two or the housing spit open. But when I replaced the old one this spring and really for no good reason other than I had the NOS parts on the shelf and was already inside to do the stator, I found no problem with it either. I mic'd the rollers for roundness and the contact surface of the collar on the 72 tooth gear and other than it being coated with black gunge when cleaned up it checked out fine and the surface was round and smooth.

 

I mic'd the new rollers today and the collar surface and found no problems.

 

I had a thought hit me this afternoon that maybe I had grabbed some oil by mistake that had some weird lube additive in it that was coating the collar preventing it from gripping or causing it the rollers to hang up. Doh! I did see my brand in the 20/50 and grabbed four of them and never read the bottles. After digging in the trash I found the bottles and it was just my normal oil. I hate it when I over think a problem.

 

I'm old school Lutz. I'm old so I'm old school. I built racing engines for my CB 750 stroker and my 900 Kaws with knurled pistons for Gods sake. I had motors that the tolerances were so tight that I had to fire up a salamander heater to warm up the engine enough to let it turn over. I freaked out the first time I opened up a modern bike motor and found that the piston was nothing more than a ring holder. Seemed to me that half of it was missing. LOL!

 

So the idea that an oil change can screw up a running bike amazes me. There has to be more to it than that. I'll figure it out. BTW.....I did try the bike a little while ago. Hooked right up. Running in 2 second flat. Go figure.

 

Thinking about the good old days.....I threw in a pic I found taken back in 79 or 80 if I remember right. That's me on the far side. Home built bike, jeans and a bombers jacket. I did beat the kid on the sponsored, shop built, make for the track, lots-o-cash racer. He broke his helmet he threw it so hard. Bad days for him. Great day for me. Had a few great days at that track.

 

I also learned back than that it was illegal to operate a motorcycle on a state highway with wheelie bars attached. Or so the State Patrol said so. I got a ticket even though I made it clear that it wasn't a "wheelie bar", it was my center stand. The trooper did offer to write me another ticket for defective vehicle as it was kind low. I stuck with the 1st ticket. I knew when to quit.

Edited September 7, 2009 by Snaggletooth

[Ozlander]

So, you replaced a known good, never had a problem item with an unknown item just because it was setting on your self.

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Also, know as fix it til it's broke.

[Snaggletooth]

It ain't quite like that. LOL! The old one would miss a beat now and then and rattle once in a while. Sounded like a future problem......so with the NOS parts, new as in never used still in package, they went in as long as I had the bike apart to do the stator replacement. Better to tear it down once than twice. It went on my list as preventative maintanence.

[Squeeze]

Mike, maybe it's an Combination of two Things.

 

First the Parts are all new and not quite "seated in". The Rollers can be stuck because of small Burrs on the Flywheel Area which are quite usual and on top of that, when the Temperature is low, the new Parts might have a thight fit inside the Slots and can't be moved enough from the Springs to catch on the 72th Wheel.

 

Add thicker Oil to this which sticks on the Contact Area and you have a perfectly lubricated and non operative Clutch Assembly.

 

When Things have warmed up bit, the Slack gets bigger and the Springs have enough Force to push the Rollers onto their Contact Area and the Things works as they should.

 

Wonderful Pics from your Past. I'm getting deeper into Drag Racing since i was at the Strip four Weeks ago. There's an open Bill for the '09 and me ...

[Ozlander]

The old one would miss a beat now and then and rattle once in a while. Sounded

 

Now you have two doing the same thing. Makes you wonder what the real problem is.

 

Ain't the oil. I run 20-50 Syntec year around.

 

You're not running Molykote are you?

[Snaggletooth]

Lutz makes an interesting point on the tolerances of the new parts along with the heavier oil. Might be on to something there.

 

The bike caught on the first try this morning, with 10/40 back in it, with no problem. Started fine everytime after that.

 

And no....no Molykote for me thanks.

[5bikes]

I have about the same but opposite problem. My starter gears and starter clutch make a lot of noise cold but as the engine/oil warm up it quiets down. My bike starts instantly even after sitting 2-3 weeks. My noise started after I put in a new stator.

I've been mixing 20W-50 with 10W-40 (same brand and type) to get as close the the 15W-40 Yamaha says we should use. I'm going to try straight 10w-40, results posted here later. Thinner oil may fix my bike too.

Also just found 15W-40 at Pepboys, their "Proline" brand.

[jasonm.]

1st Yamaha originally said to use 20w40. As you know way back 20 years ago there was no 20w40 at the auto-parts store. So this was a marketing ploy to get you to get the 20w40 from Yamaha. Using 20w50 may not be your problem. 1st- did you use 12.9 grade bolts w/red loctite to lock down the new clutch to the flywheel? 2nd- did you replace the roller springs and rollers? If you answer no to any or part of these questions. Then, You are using old parts w/new parts and that's the issue.

[Snaggletooth]

Well.......just for the record, since I drained the 20/50 out and refilled it with 10/40 again it has started from dead cold every morning this week just like it always has in the past. Touch of choke...push the switch and off she goes. Engage clutch it hitting like it should every time hot or cold.

 

I think Squeeze may have hit it on the tolerances of the new parts and possible burrs on the housing just making it too tight with the heavier oil. Best answer that makes sense so far.

 

I'll try my luck with 20/50 again when it gets hot next season.

 

Some things are just hard to explain.

 

Thanks for all the input guys.

 

Mike