Venom vs. E3 - some new observations

[V7Goose]

I just replaced the front E3 on my RSV after 21,600 miles. This is not near as many miles as I get from a Venom front tire, which seems a bit odd when you consider that I get about 3,000 miles MORE from an E3 rear tire than I do from a Venom rear. I have never been as satisfied with the Dunlop E3s as I am with Avon Venoms; I think the E3s are better than most other tires out there, but not quite up to the performance of the Venoms.

 

I have a relatively new E3 on the rear (just 7,000 miles on it), and I put an Avon Venom on the front to see how that combination works. While changing the tires, I noticed that the Avon in stock size is considerably shorter than the E3 (smaller diameter), even when comparing a new Venom to a worn out E3. In addition, the Venom has a more rounded profile while the actual width of the tire from tread edge to edge is identical. I suspect the profile and smaller diameter contribute a lot to why the Venoms handle better for me.

 

This new combo of the Venom front and E3 rear felt great today when I put about 50 miles on it to check out the new tire, but that is pretty early to tell. Gotta head back out to Phoenix this week, so after that 3,000 mile round trip I'll be able to give you a much better report on them.

Goose

[GG54172]

My E3's are wearing pretty well, but the first 3000 miles were pretty noisy. The howled in the corners. Not so confident in the wet either.

[Kirby]

Goose, do you think the smaller diameter changes the steering geometry a little, by that I mean, kinda like raising the rearend?

[V7Goose]

Yes, it does change the trail, but not by much. The difference in total height between the new Venom and worn out E3 was about 1/4", so I'm guessing the max difference between new tires would be about 1/2", which would translate to a 1/4" lower front axle height. I think the faster roll-off on the sides of the tread probably have a much bigger impact on the better handling.

Goose

[latchkey]

sure wish i could get 10,000 out of my front tire? running e3 on front now. tryed most brands but for me e3 seems to work best . 7000 is about the best i got on any tire but i wont let them get to a point where im wondering about them. seems all the brands i have used cup around that time anyway.

[Sylvester]

sure wish i could get 10,000 out of my front tire? running e3 on front now. tryed most brands but for me e3 seems to work best . 7000 is about the best i got on any tire but i wont let them get to a point where im wondering about them. seems all the brands i have used cup around that time anyway.

 

You have something wrong with air pressure or bearings. I get 10,000 miles out of D-404s easily but I keep the air at 41 front and 42 rear. Cupping is a cause of air pressure as I understand it.

 

[V7Goose]

sure wish i could get 10,000 out of my front tire? running e3 on front now. tryed most brands but for me e3 seems to work best . 7000 is about the best i got on any tire but i wont let them get to a point where im wondering about them. seems all the brands i have used cup around that time anyway.

If you cannot get more than 10,000 miles from a FRONT tire, I suggest you have a significant problem with your bike (whatever bike you have).

 

Tire cupping generally indicates a suspension problem or balance problem, but bearings can contribute also (both steering head and wheel bearings). Any fast wear can come from an alignment problem or dragging brakes. Low air pressure will also wear tires very fast (thanx for that reminder Sylvester!).

 

I generally get fairly average tire life on my RSV when compared to the majority of other 2nd gen owners: between 8,000 - 16,000 per REAR tire (depending on brand), and 20,000 - 28,000 per FRONT tire. These observations are based on around 120,000 miles on the RSV and a fair amount of specific tire testing. Usually I will get two rear tires out of a single front tire of the same brand. The E3 is the exception for me, as it is the only set where the Front tire did not last as long as normal, and it is also the ONLY front tire of any brand that has developed abnormal scalloping in the tread. I won't be running any more E3 front tires.

Goose

[V7Goose]

Well, after 500 miles today, all I can say is Wow, the Venom front and E3 rear (both in stock size) seems to be a great tire combination! This bike has not felt so fantastic in over 20,000 miles.

Goose

[Rick Haywood]

sure wish i could get 10,000 out of my front tire? running e3 on front now. tryed most brands but for me e3 seems to work best . 7000 is about the best i got on any tire but i wont let them get to a point where im wondering about them. seems all the brands i have used cup around that time anyway.

 

Really they cup. I have 19,000 0n an E'# with no cupping. Tire pressure checked weekly and dyna beads solved my cupping problems I run 39 ponds of air in the front tire and 43 in the rear tire. I ride 2 up most the time. I also run 4 pounds in the front forks and 33 in the rear

 

Just works for me

[V7Goose]

Really they cup. I have 19,000 0n an E'# with no cupping. Tire pressure checked weekly and dyna beads solved my cupping problems I run 39 ponds of air in the front tire and 43 in the rear tire. I ride 2 up most the time. I also run 4 pounds in the front forks and 33 in the rear

 

Just works for me

If you have an E3 on the rear, you are running excessive pressure. The maximum pressure for that tire, as stamped on the sidewall, is 40 lbs cold. Tire pressure increases a lot when they heat up, and the manufacturers specifically state that it is dangerous to exceed the sidewall max. For anyone else reading this thread who has, or is going to, an E3 rear tire, PLEASE do NOT put 43 lbs in it!

Goose

[rumboogy]

Hey Goose...I know this is probably somewhere else...and I have searched, but I couldn't find a (semi)definitive answer.

 

The Avon Venoms...I am running 40psi on the front and 48psi on the back... I know the tires say 42 and 50. But I did read where you said the bike seems to handle better (for you anyway) at 48psi on the back. What is your sweet spot on the front?

 

Thanks (again) for answering this.

 

Wally

[V7Goose]

Hey Goose...I know this is probably somewhere else...and I have searched, but I couldn't find a (semi)definitive answer.

 

The Avon Venoms...I am running 40psi on the front and 48psi on the back... I know the tires say 42 and 50. But I did read where you said the bike seems to handle better (for you anyway) at 48psi on the back. What is your sweet spot on the front?

 

Thanks (again) for answering this.

 

Wally

I generally keep the front Avon about 38 lbs, but unlike the rear tire, I have not noticed a significant issue with handling based on the front tire pressure as long as it is above 36.

Goose

[rumboogy]

Thanks Goose...I have been running the Avons now for about 2 weeks...VERY NICE!!!

 

Thanks for the use of your expertise!

[eusa1]

all of the manufacture recomendations about tire pressure is great information, however the different sized riders 1 up and 2 up and different speeds, roads and aggressiveness of the rider will change all of the information that has been suggested.

mike

[rumboogy]

Yeah...but I looked at Gooses picture and I think we are within a few pounds of each...just wished it was as close in height.

[dunsonaventure]

I have heard alot of bad press on Metzeler tires on this site, unfortunately after I put them on. But I have to say ,Ive been to the dragon and surrounding areas two years in a row on these tires riding that big dog like a sport bike and have had no problems after 6000 miles. If the E3's and Venoms are that much better I cant wait

[eusa1]

I have heard alot of bad press on Metzeler tires on this site, unfortunately after I put them on. But I have to say ,Ive been to the dragon and surrounding areas two years in a row on these tires riding that big dog like a sport bike and have had no problems after 6000 miles. If the E3's and Venoms are that much better I cant wait

 

6000 miles in 2 years will only tell us that you have never driven the tires to a length of time or miles for them to get hot and have any long seat time with them. But I'm happy that you feel safe with them.

[V7Goose]

Well to get back to the original topic - how the bike handles with an Avon Venom 150/80-16 front tire and Dunlop E3 150/90-15 rear tire -

 

It handles GREAT! Just got back from Phoenix tonight - rode straight through this time - 1,100 miles in 18 hours. 500 of those miles were in the Arizona and New Mexico mountains with plenty of twisties (I totally avoided the super slab). I have had this tire combination on the bike for six days and about 3.000 miles (the Venom front was mounted new six days ago, the E3 rear is now about mid-life with 9,000 miles on it. I am completely convinced that this is a good combination. Maybe not as good as Venoms on both wheels, but pretty danged close. I still don't like the howl form the E3 in the turns, but think maybe it is an acceptable price to pay for the extended rear tire life I get from the E3 (about 17.000 miles per rear tire compared to 14,000 miles on a Venom rear tire).

 

But the main key here is that the E3 front tire was just nasty - handled poorly and wore unevenly, plus did not last as long as a Venom front tire. I will not use one again.

 

My current opinion is that the matched Avon Venoms on both wheels will still deliver the best performance on this bike, but if you really want more miles from your rear tire, running an E3 rear and Venom front is a good choice.

Goose

Edited July 19, 2011 by V7Goose

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Since it never rains in Texas, New Mexico or Arizona anymore...this may be a moot point....

 

 

But I had always heard that the Avons didnt handle very well in heavy rain...I dont mean flooded roads, but just a heavy coating of water on the road.

 

I personally know a couple of riders who have had hydroplaning cause an accident, both were running Avon Venoms. I think those tires do put more rubber on the road, but in a rainstorm, that may cause a problem if they dont shed water very well.

 

Yes I know, maybe they were running too fast for conditions...that certainly is a possiblity.

 

 

 

Goose, have you ridden in any heavy rains while running the Venoms? If so, did you ever feel the Avon front get 'loose'? I've had that happen with Dunlops when I was running too fast and found a stretch of flooded road and its NO fun when the front tire isnt touching terra firma when you WANT it to!

 

[V7Goose]

Since it never rains in Texas, New Mexico or Arizona anymore...this may be a moot point....

 

 

But I had always heard that the Avons didnt handle very well in heavy rain...I dont mean flooded roads, but just a heavy coating of water on the road.

 

I personally know a couple of riders who have had hydroplaning cause an accident, both were running Avon Venoms. I think those tires do put more rubber on the road, but in a rainstorm, that may cause a problem if they dont shed water very well.

 

Yes I know, maybe they were running too fast for conditions...that certainly is a possiblity.

 

 

 

Goose, have you ridden in any heavy rains while running the Venoms? If so, did you ever feel the Avon front get 'loose'? I've had that happen with Dunlops when I was running too fast and found a stretch of flooded road and its NO fun when the front tire isnt touching terra firma when you WANT it to!

 

I ride all year long, rain or not, and Yes, I have ridden the RSV with both Avons and E3s is everything from light rain to torrential frog-stranglers where the CARS were slowing down and even pulling off the road, but I felt comfortable maintaining the posted limits of anywhere from 55-70 MPH. My personal opinion is that the Avon Venom tires provide absolutely the BEST wet weather handling of any motorcycle tire I have ever used. The Dunlop E3 are almost as good.

 

The problem with reports of wet weather traction is that the vast majority of riders actually have no idea what this means, and furthermore, they have almost no experience riding their bike in different wet conditions to actually compare.

 

Here is the problem - wet road handling can ONLY be fairly evaluated after the roads have been fully washed off - meaning that the rain has to be fairly hard and last quite a while. When the rain first starts, and for quite some time if it is only a light sprinkle, the water mixes with the dirt, rubber particles and oil residue on the road surface and creates a thin grease slick that ANY tire will slip and spin on. My truck is all over the road in those conditions, and even the Jag with fancy automatic traction control will frequently flash the traction control light when the rains first start - you can't actually feel traction problems most of the time (even with the traction control switched off), but the car tells you there is a bit of slipping going on. On a bike, with only two wheels, you ALWAYS feel any slipping, no matter how slight.

 

So any reports of poor wet handling cannot be fairly evaluated without knowing both the experience of the rider and the actual conditions under which they were riding. Here's an example from my trip this week - when I hit Roswell on Thursday, there was a storm just blowing through - they had received zero rain all year, and that one dumped 3/4" Thursday afternoon. Due to the lack of rain for a long time, the roads hadn't been effectively "washed" for ages, and as I crept through town. each light was an experience. Roswell has a 3' band of bricks in the road for most crosswalks, and even with very gentle acceleration, the E3 rear tire on my RSV would spin and slip sideways on every one of those when I took off from the light - no problem getting started, but watch out when the rear tire hit the bricks! And if an unsuspecting rider had tried to turn a corner on those bricks, the front tire would have almost certainly shot out from under them and caused an accident. NOT fun at all. But that had nothing to do with how good the E3 is in wet weather traction - is is simply the effects of trying to ride a motorcycle on greasy slick red bricks - no tire at all would have done any better in the first hour of that storm. Unfortunately, there are many riders who would have found themselves suddenly caught in that situation - maybe just trying to go home from work - who would have immediately started shouting on every internet board how 'bad' their particular tires were in wet conditions.

 

In conditions where the water on the road surface is heavy enough to actually create side water spray from the tires (not just a mist thrown off the tires, but a real spray that splashes up and hits your boots), I have found that the Avon Venom tires inspire total confidence - never slipping or losing grip for any reason.

Goose

Edited July 19, 2011 by V7Goose

[rumboogy]

I'm no tire expert, but I have experienced those same observations and agree with that opinion 100%.

 

Whr

 

En I am riding and it starts to rain (especially a light rain on a hot day) ... I slow WAY down until the roads have been thoroughly soaked and washed.

 

Ironically, I feel I have the MOST grip and fell the safest after a rain and right after the pavement is dry.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

.....wet road handling can ONLY be fairly evaluated after the roads have been fully washed off[/b] - meaning that the rain has to be fairly hard and last quite a while. When the rain first starts, and for quite some time if it is only a light sprinkle, the water mixes with the dirt, rubber particles and oil residue on the road surface and creates a thin grease slick that ANY tire will slip and spin on.

 

 

 

.....In conditions where the water on the road surface is heavy enough to actually create side water spray from the tires (not just a mist thrown off the tires, but a real spray that splashes up and hits your boots), I have found that the Avon Venom tires inspire total confidence - never slipping or losing grip for any reason.

Goose

 

 

 

I was actually referring specifically to hydroplaning, where the rubber leaves the road, and there is ZERO grip, and ZERO handling, period....rather than the lower speed handling, traction, and of course, rider awareness and skill.

 

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroplaning_(tires)

 

I have had a situation ( many years ago on my ElectraGlide) where hydroplaning nearly caused me to lose it. I was riding thru a heavy rain at a reasonable speed, maybe 60 mph or so, but hit a lower area in the paving and encountered a deep puddle of water standing on the road...The rain was so heavy and visibility so poor at dusk that I simply did not see it. The front end hydroed and I lost all steering control...The bars felt like they had come apart from the forks. Simultaneously, the 'roostertail' of water from the front tire obliterated all forward vision...very nasty situation. It lasted about 75 feet or so, and of course the drag on the tires slowed me down, as I cut power but did NOT apply the brakes...and I was able to recover as the front tire lost the hydroplaning effect. I know that situation was not due to tire tread, but simply, stuff (laws of physics) happens! (by the way, it was a surprise rainstorm and I was TRYING to make it to the underpass that I knew was a few miles ahead of me...I found out later that the ponding water came from a damaged firehydrant that was hit by a cager just before I got there)

 

I will make no comments on the state of my GI system after that!

 

What I have heard locally is that the Avon Venoms are more likely to hydroplane at lower speeds than some tires, due to more rubber and fewer rain grooves in contact with the pavement. For this reason many local riders and mechanics seem to recommend the Avons only for showbikes and barhoppers, and not for touring bikes that will see some rain-covered roads.

 

But, I'm glad you have had good luck with them.

 

And BTW...did you happen to notice Champion Motorsports on the west side of Roswell? I have posted pics on this board in the past...they are an all-brand dealership...with Harley-Davidson listed UNDERNEATH Honda!

 

 

 

[jasonm.]

I had Venoms for years. ANd my front is Venom,...but with the cracking issue NOW the rear is Michelin. Now my front has a small crack, 1 inch long , only 1 year old! But not big enough to get changed out. Avon said...when it's crack as thick as a credit card...send us a picture. The Michelin is NOT an actual 140 on my '87. It measures a 130 actually. Yet is correct height. Handles good very stable yet corners smooth and no rfear of dragging hard bits. Although I seem to have to air it up evry 3 weeks 1 psi . The Venoms never needed air....

Edited July 22, 2011 by jasonm.

[FuzzyRSTD]

 

I was actually referring specifically to hydroplaning, where the rubber leaves the road, and there is ZERO grip, and ZERO handling, period....rather than the lower speed handling, traction, and of course, rider awareness and skill.

 

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroplaning_(tires)

 

I have had a situation ( many years ago on my ElectraGlide) where hydroplaning nearly caused me to lose it. I was riding thru a heavy rain at a reasonable speed, maybe 60 mph or so, but hit a lower area in the paving and encountered a deep puddle of water standing on the road...The rain was so heavy and visibility so poor at dusk that I simply did not see it. The front end hydroed and I lost all steering control...The bars felt like they had come apart from the forks. Simultaneously, the 'roostertail' of water from the front tire obliterated all forward vision...very nasty situation. It lasted about 75 feet or so, and of course the drag on the tires slowed me down, as I cut power but did NOT apply the brakes...and I was able to recover as the front tire lost the hydroplaning effect. I know that situation was not due to tire tread, but simply, stuff (laws of physics) happens! (by the way, it was a surprise rainstorm and I was TRYING to make it to the underpass that I knew was a few miles ahead of me...I found out later that the ponding water came from a damaged firehydrant that was hit by a cager just before I got there)

 

I will make no comments on the state of my GI system after that!

 

What I have heard locally is that the Avon Venoms are more likely to hydroplane at lower speeds than some tires, due to more rubber and fewer rain grooves in contact with the pavement. For this reason many local riders and mechanics seem to recommend the Avons only for showbikes and barhoppers, and not for touring bikes that will see some rain-covered roads.

 

But, I'm glad you have had good luck with them.

 

And BTW...did you happen to notice Champion Motorsports on the west side of Roswell? I have posted pics on this board in the past...they are an all-brand dealership...with Harley-Davidson listed UNDERNEATH Honda!

 

 

 

 

I have run the Avon Venoms for several thousand miles now. I have ridden in the rain and the puddles on I-64 in heavy traffic at Charleston,WV and needed to get to a safe location and shelter. So I can say that I do not agree with the comments that some have made about the water handling issue. They are wearing great and so far the Avons are the best tire I have ever owned for a bike. I would highly recommend that you try a set for yourself. I am sure you would like them, and like me, you would disagree with the locals and the showrooms and the barhoppers. Goose has written several long detailed threads and posts concerning these tires. I would have to say that,in some degree, he has become a tire expert on these matters.:backinmyday:

 

Fuzzy

Edited July 22, 2011 by FuzzyRSTD

[GG54172]

If you cannot get more than 10,000 miles from a FRONT tire, I suggest you have a significant problem with your bike (whatever bike you have).

 

 

 

Have you seen my daily commute? Scraping floorboards at 65mph isn't very condusive to 10,000mile tire life.