Pecker Posted February 1, 2011 Share #26 Posted February 1, 2011 As for the diagnosis. I fix airplanes not bikes(except as a hobby ) but there's a lot more then just taking a peak in there to figure things out. They can get the oil tested and that analysis can tell them a lot just by what material they find. That can tell them if a bearing wore out or if something steel broke, etc. They will also need to drain and wipe out the case and look at whatever pieces they find in there. They also want to rule out any owner faults ... for example, finding a craftsman socket in the crankcase might make them decide not to warranty it Finally, they can examine the part that failed directly.. just how the edge of the broken area looks can tell a lot. If there was a pre-existing stress fracture that spread and then failed, it looks different then if the part was just over-stressed and failed all at once. There's also tell tale signs of heat that might be present if there was a blockage in one of the oil passages. Granted, some shops and some mechanics might do no more then open the case up, see that a rod is broken and leave it at that. But any mechanic worth his license will try and find a root cause, and the fact that everyone at this dealership seems so surprised to see a 2nd gen engine that blew up, they will probably go the whole 9 yards and try to figure out why. In the perfect world, yes, most quality mechanics would find the root cause. Here in the real world, Yamaha isn't paying the mechanic to determine exactly why the engine expired, they are paying for a tear down, inspection and parts replacement. Usually the flatrate time for warranty coverage is not realistic, the job almost always takes longer than flatrate, thusly the mech isn't inclined to spend alot of time playing detective. The regional field engineer would be the person to determine exactly what went wrong, that info rarely trickles down to the dealership service depts. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigatcsi Posted February 1, 2011 Share #27 Posted February 1, 2011 Keep us informed of how this comes out. Craig's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PlaneCrazy Posted February 1, 2011 Share #28 Posted February 1, 2011 In the perfect world, yes, most quality mechanics would find the root cause. Here in the real world, Yamaha isn't paying the mechanic to determine exactly why the engine expired, they are paying for a tear down, inspection and parts replacement. Usually the flatrate time for warranty coverage is not realistic, the job almost always takes longer than flatrate, thusly the mech isn't inclined to spend alot of time playing detective. The regional field engineer would be the person to determine exactly what went wrong, that info rarely trickles down to the dealership service depts. Dave Well, I've been a licensed mechanic in the "real world" for over 16 years now and I sure would try my best to find a root cause. I'm not talking the $10/hour apprentice doing the wrenching... I'm talking the guy who's signing off on this job. I realize that there's a lot of mechanics out there that just punch the clock and do what they are told and that's why I tend to talk to these guys and see what they are doing. If my 20 grand bike just blew up under warranty and they couldn't give me a good reason why, I'd be pretty upset I think. As for the job taking longer then flat rated quoted times... gimme a break. They have those tables down pretty accurate and they also don't take into account all the duplication of tasks, such as the time gaining access to a part that is duplicated on several tasks for the same area. It's still flat-rated in even though you already have access from another task. Most Joe customers don't even realize they are paying 2 or 3 times the labour for something that is only done once, when they have complicated repairs such as this. I'm just glad I work for an airline and don't have to worry about billing customers (except when I go out on a call for another airline on the field). In my job, the work is always supposed to be done yesterday, lol. Especially when a delayed or canceled flight can cost upwards of a quarter of a million bucks. I'd hate my job if i had to worry about nickel and diming some poor customer for labour costs or trying to sell someone an over-priced part they didn't need so I could get a commission off of it. In any case, I hope the OP gets the work done under warranty and the dealer can determine what actually caused the failure so they can avoid having it happen in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave77459 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share #29 Posted February 1, 2011 Well, I've been a licensed mechanic in the "real world" for over 16 years now and I sure would try my best to find a root cause. *snipped* In any case, I hope the OP gets the work done under warranty and the dealer can determine what actually caused the failure so they can avoid having it happen in the future. I believe that the mechanic's level of excitement was due in part because it was a question he'd like to answer. Nobody has seen one of these crater; wouldn't you like to be the guy who figured out why? I understand that this guy has worked these engines since they came out (he's been doing it 12 years?), compared to the closer dealer who "does Big Dogs" and sees a couple Royal Stars a month, maybe, since they re-opened 2 years ago. Anyways, I'm calling them Friday for an update, and to maybe make a date to see the innards on Saturday. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave77459 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share #30 Posted February 4, 2011 I got a call this evening from the dealership. They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. I thought this would be the case, but I've been trying not to think of it. Most of my shop supplies were bought on jumbo trips to WalMart, where a gallon of oil and a couple filters would be lost in dozens of other items. The receipts were left in the paper bags, and disposed of. And, frankly, I never thought the bike would die under warranty; it never happened, right? I knew I was doing proper maintenance, and that seemed the important thing. Until now. I'm sick to my stomach. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kregerdoodle Posted February 4, 2011 Share #31 Posted February 4, 2011 Sounds like Lawyer Time to me.... I got a call this evening from the dealership. They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. I thought this would be the case, but I've been trying not to think of it. Most of my shop supplies were bought on jumbo trips to WalMart, where a gallon of oil and a couple filters would be lost in dozens of other items. The receipts were left in the paper bags, and disposed of. And, frankly, I never thought the bike would die under warranty; it never happened, right? I knew I was doing proper maintenance, and that seemed the important thing. Until now. I'm sick to my stomach. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straycatt Posted February 4, 2011 Share #32 Posted February 4, 2011 They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. Receipts for what? Any paper that shows you have bought oil/filters for a DIY oil change still doesn't mean that particular oil/filter was used on that particular bike. If they're demanding paper on dealer oil changes.....they can't. DIY maintenance does not void the warranty. It seems to me unless they can prove improper maintenance, you win. What are the chances of you getting your hands on some of the oil from your engine to do your own used oil analysis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Bob Posted February 4, 2011 Share #33 Posted February 4, 2011 They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. The receipts were left in the paper bags, and disposed of. I'm sick to my stomach. Dave I'd be in the same boat. Buy my Amsoil 10-40 MC oil and fram filter at the local Fleet Farm, and toss the extra crap. Fortunately for me, my warranty ran out 6 months ago at about 74,000 miles, so I don't have to worry. Seriously, I'd look into the warranty rules and see if they can get away with that, or if the dealer is trying to get some extra dough. And, there's plenty of TX members that may have oil and filter reciepts you may be able to borrow. Good Luck, Scooter Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes0778 Posted February 4, 2011 Share #34 Posted February 4, 2011 I got a call this evening from the dealership. They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. I thought this would be the case, but I've been trying not to think of it. Most of my shop supplies were bought on jumbo trips to WalMart, where a gallon of oil and a couple filters would be lost in dozens of other items. The receipts were left in the paper bags, and disposed of. And, frankly, I never thought the bike would die under warranty; it never happened, right? I knew I was doing proper maintenance, and that seemed the important thing. Until now. I'm sick to my stomach. Dave Wait just a minute!!! Sounds like the cart before the horse!!! Without a failure analysis HOW will they know that lack of maintenance COULD have caused this failure. What if it was a casting flaw in which ever part failed? Good or bad maintenance would not have caused nor could have prevented that failure! You need to remind then that you are innocent (covered) until proven guilty(at fault for lack of maintenance). If nothing else go back on your memory and with different pens or pencils make a list of all the services in the back cover of your owner's manual and take that too them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponch Posted February 4, 2011 Share #35 Posted February 4, 2011 They may accept a maintenance log. I track all work done on my vehicles in a log. Not for warranty backup, just my own use. But, that may suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted February 4, 2011 Share #36 Posted February 4, 2011 And if the owners manual happens to be on the bike, which they have, come up with a somewhat old looking note book and do as suggested above. Even note those occasional long trips for that realistic tone. I write down my end of year mileage, which is when I do winter maintenance items. Remember the tires as well. This is of course from your excellent memory of these events. In hindsight, I refer you to the third post in this thread!! Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7Goose Posted February 4, 2011 Share #37 Posted February 4, 2011 Well, we tried to tell ya up front to create this record. The fact is, (IMHO), only a **** dealer would play that game, but once they start down that path you are screwed unless you can play it with them. Too danged bad they are more interested in screwing the customer than dong their job. Good luck in putting your record together - it CAN be done. But if they continue to play the game and try to get away without honoring the warranty, I suspect it will be WELL worth your money to hire a lawyer. Although I am NOT a lawyer, I do think the burden of proof is on them, NOT you. That means they have to find evidence that something went wrong because maintenance was not done, then, and only then, it is up to you to provide evidence that you actually did things right. You do need to know that US law specifically provides for a vendor that wrongly tries to deny a warranty to have to pay all fees and expenses incurred by the customer forcing them to honor the warranty. Please don't let these shysters get away with such dishonest behavior. There is no way you should get screwed being forced to pay for that repair! Goose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zooer Posted February 4, 2011 Share #38 Posted February 4, 2011 Just to clarify... We bill $225/hr labor $100/hr travel. I certainly don't get paid that much! My time is actually worth what ever I can get paid for it. Good gawd, my Heart doctor don't charge that much, and he's got 12 years of school behind his degree! What in the world do you do for a living, repair space shuttles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted February 4, 2011 Share #39 Posted February 4, 2011 Good gawd, my Heart doctor don't charge that much, and he's got 12 years of school behind his degree! What in the world do you do for a living, repair space shuttles? Actually... we repair and maintain the equipment your doctor uses to look at your heart during heart caths and angiograms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99silver Posted February 4, 2011 Share #40 Posted February 4, 2011 Did you keep a log of maintenance performed with dates and mileage ? That should suffice, they would like to see a record of regular services done. This is what I've been told, don't hold me to it, but it sounds reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted February 4, 2011 Share #41 Posted February 4, 2011 Have a lawyer make a phone call to Yamaha USA. That will get their attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aharbi Posted February 4, 2011 Share #42 Posted February 4, 2011 Dave, you may have the receipts needed. Hopfully you used your cc to charge all your purchases at Wallmart. They will have a record of your purchases and what was purchased. The id numbers (bar code) will identify the item purchased. At that point I would think it would be up to them to prove you did not use the purchased item on your bike. Anyway, I would not provide them any evidence to use against you untill you hire legal councel. 1) GET A LAYWER! 2) get your bike back. You are playing hard ball now. They will charge you storage AND will not release it to you till you pay the $600 diagnostic labor. Get a copy of what they found in writing. ie. what the $600 paid for 3) contact regional Yamaha (go over the stealer head) that the dealer left you no choice but to file legal action. 4) post your ordeal on every motorcycle - yamaha related forum. Turn up the public pressure. 5) buy a Honda to ride till this is settled a few years from now. Cause I know you won't be riding a Yamaha in the near future. Good luck buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7Goose Posted February 4, 2011 Share #43 Posted February 4, 2011 Dave, you may have the receipts needed. Hopfully you used your cc to charge all your purchases at Wallmart. They will have a record of your purchases and what was purchased. The id numbers (bar code) will identify the item purchased. At that point I would think it would be up to them to prove you did not use the purchased item on your bike. Anyway, I would not provide them any evidence to use against you untill you hire legal councel. 1) GET A LAYWER! 2) get your bike back. You are playing hard ball now. They will charge you storage AND will not release it to you till you pay the $600 diagnostic labor. Get a copy of what they found in writing. ie. what the $600 paid for 3) contact regional Yamaha (go over the stealer head) that the dealer left you no choice but to file legal action. 4) post your ordeal on every motorcycle - yamaha related forum. Turn up the public pressure. 5) buy a Honda to ride till this is settled a few years from now. Cause I know you won't be riding a Yamaha in the near future. Good luck buddy This is excellent advice. Unless you are just going to roll over and pay for the privilege of taking it in the shorts, be vary careful about anything you tell them or give them now; they WILL use it against you once they have started the screwing process of their customer. If they have found something specific where they believe improper maintenance could have caused it, then they should tell you that, and asking for your evidence in that case would be appropriate. But it sounds like they are just fishing for reasons to refuse your claim, so don't play that game with them. Good luck, Goose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zooer Posted February 4, 2011 Share #44 Posted February 4, 2011 I got a call this evening from the dealership. They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. I'm sick to my stomach. Dave When you get a chance plaster this dealers name on here in big letters, will ya. No one want to take a chance of stopping in there by mistake even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redneck Posted February 4, 2011 Share #45 Posted February 4, 2011 I got a call this evening from the dealership. They want me to bring all my receipts to the shop, because it is Yamaha's stance that they won't pay unless I can prove proper maintenance. I thought this would be the case, but I've been trying not to think of it. Most of my shop supplies were bought on jumbo trips to WalMart, where a gallon of oil and a couple filters would be lost in dozens of other items. The receipts were left in the paper bags, and disposed of. And, frankly, I never thought the bike would die under warranty; it never happened, right? I knew I was doing proper maintenance, and that seemed the important thing. Until now. I'm sick to my stomach. DaveAt this point don't start threatening them don't become combative simply ask what caused the failure. You have agreed to pay for them to diagnose the failure make them provide the diagnosis. If you do have to produce records simply get an accounting program create a company (joe blows scooter repair) make your own receipts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezyRider Posted February 4, 2011 Share #46 Posted February 4, 2011 I would ask for proof that this is Yamaha's stance and not just the dealer's crooked policy. Tell them to give you Yamaha's written directive that this is necessary....or, if they cannot give that to you, tell them you want the name/phone number of the district or regional rep that gave them that information. Do not roll over and play dead. If they find out that you are not going to accept what they tell you at face value, my guess is that their story may change. Oh yeah, like someone else said....post the name of this dealer. Got an email address for them?? Several thousand emails from VR members may soften their stance....or at least be a major pain for whoever handles their email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBeaver Posted February 4, 2011 Share #47 Posted February 4, 2011 At this point don't start threatening them don't become combative simply ask what caused the failure. You have agreed to pay for them to diagnose the failure make them provide the diagnosis. ... Just a few thoughts.. Fabricating ANYTHING [other than a maintenance log that is created to the best of your memory] could get you in trouble pretty quick. That is, if this went to court and you had fabricated receipts of some sort it would be case closed in no time since you would have falsified evidence and proven that you are dishonest, you would leave little choice for the court system. Lawyering up to contact Yamaha or contacting Yamaha yourself to ask the specific question of what is required by the owner to provide to the dealership to get warranty work done, then get it in WRITING, in my opinion would probably be your best avenue to go down for a speedy resolution as provided you have whatever it is that Yamahaha says they require it would likey not leave the dealer with a leg to stand on. In addition, going straight to Yamaha and going back to the with an official written statement by yamaha (even if it is an e-mail or fax) would show them immediately that you aren't going to play these games with the dealer and hopefully that would be enough to get things back on track. It is my opinion that you keep the name of the dealer to your self as the last thing you want is to have to deal with a ticked off dealer that is going to be responsible for putting your bike back together a few months away from the end of your warranty. Not to mention possible charges of intimidation, etc etc. Best of luck to you. I sure hope that this is resolved rather quickly and painlessly for you - even though at this point it looks like that may be a long shot in itself... :080402gudl_prv: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezyRider Posted February 4, 2011 Share #48 Posted February 4, 2011 Just a few thoughts.. Fabricating ANYTHING [other than a maintenance log that is created to the best of your memory] could get you in trouble pretty quick. That is, if this went to court and you had fabricated receipts of some sort it would be case closed in no time since you would have falsified evidence and proven that you are dishonest, you would leave little choice for the court system. Lawyering up to contact Yamaha or contacting Yamaha yourself to ask the specific question of what is required by the owner to provide to the dealership to get warranty work done, then get it in WRITING, in my opinion would probably be your best avenue to go down for a speedy resolution as provided you have whatever it is that Yamahaha says they require it would likey not leave the dealer with a leg to stand on. In addition, going straight to Yamaha and going back to the with an official written statement by yamaha (even if it is an e-mail or fax) would show them immediately that you aren't going to play these games with the dealer and hopefully that would be enough to get things back on track. It is my opinion that you keep the name of the dealer to your self as the last thing you want is to have to deal with a ticked off dealer that is going to be responsible for putting your bike back together a few months away from the end of your warranty. Not to mention possible charges of intimidation, etc etc. Best of luck to you. I sure hope that this is resolved rather quickly and painlessly for you - even though at this point it looks like that may be a long shot in itself... :080402gudl_prv: I hate it when someone responds with a cool head and a logical argument. Party pooper!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted February 4, 2011 Share #49 Posted February 4, 2011 Dave, you should NOT seek legal counsel on an internet forum. Many statements of advice on this thread could get you in trouble if you follow them. Once this becomes a legal issue, you will be obligated to not discuss the details on the open internet. This includes the name of the dealer. There is NOTHING in the written warranty in the manual about providing receipts. It simply says the owner must perform the maintenenece or have it performed. hence, thats why I advised: Get a lawyer involved. He may advise you to get this thread removed if possible. Please dont jeopardize this issue any further...all it takes is ONE person to alert the dealer that this case is being discussed on the internet, for him to change how he does business with you, and it wont be for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted February 4, 2011 Share #50 Posted February 4, 2011 Yes, but for oil changes, a personal journal of dates and mileage of oil changes should suffice. Just use a different pen for each entry, and a couple of oily fingerprints on the log should be convincing enough! If you can make them in your owner's manual that would be even better! Hopefully your owners manual is NOT in your trunk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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