Dragonslayer Posted October 30, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 30, 2009 Please help. I am completely stumped. There has got to be something that I am overlooking. Possible I have not been clear in relating the symptoms and thought if I reiterate them step by step fresh eyes might be able to catch something that I/we have over looked. Battery (Odysee PC680 replacement battery under warranty 4 months old) charged battery to fully charged acording to battery charger, on bench when charger was removed battery read 13.01 dcv by digital meter 12 hours later battery read 12.82 dcv 36 hrs later battery read 12.82 dcv 48 hrs later battery read 12.82 dcv reinstalled back into bike........@ 12.82 volt......... starter drags dragging starter quickly draws battery down to 12.4 to 12.6 volts put charger back on battery charger.... charger charges battery back up to 12.8 + volts within seconds less than one minute. Starter solenoid Battery hot at 12.82 dcv line side of solenoid 12.82 load side of solenoid with starter button pushed... 10.5 dcv to 11.00 dcv starter drags this would indicate high resistance across solenoid right But, with battery hot 12.82, using jumper cord from + battery terminal and checking dcv to opposite end of jumper cord shows 12.82.... touch opposite end of jumber cable directly to starter power lug...........starter drags Starter Powered starter on the bench.... it runs fine reinstalled on bike........ it drags Starter gears opened side covers gears look fine. remove starter gears...... starter clutch gear spins freely clockwise but, is stationary in counter clockwise direction. with the three smaller gears removed. hit start button with starter mounted but 3 gears removed starter runs fine put three gears back in an reset side cover........ starter drags with starter gears removed and rachett on flywheel bolt engine turns smoothly in both directions except for expected compression lobe of cylinders with spark plugs in. Meaning that engine turns easily but you can feel compression build and realease as valves open and close. All cables + and - have been upgraded and all connection points have been inspected, cleaned and checked. an additional ground from engine block to frame has been added. What am I missing? I am hoping fresh eyes on problem can ad some insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted October 30, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 30, 2009 If you can borrow a known good battery try it. Wouldn't be the first Oddesy battery to go bad under warranty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 30, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 30, 2009 Can you check the cables to make sure juice is flowing thru them as it should? Maybe you installed a bad cable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 30, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 30, 2009 It looks like your volts are fine, but how many amps is the battery putting out, and how far does it drop when you hit the start button? Amps are more important for starting than volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslayer Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted October 30, 2009 It looks like your volts are fine, but how many amps is the battery putting out, and how far does it drop when you hit the start button? Amps are more important for starting than volts. I'm not sure I know how to determine how many amps the battery is putting out. Judging by the rate starter draws down voltage it discharges the battery very quickly and the charger recharges battery very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslayer Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted October 30, 2009 Can you check the cables to make sure juice is flowing thru them as it should? Maybe you installed a bad cable?Cables all check out fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslayer Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted October 30, 2009 If you can borrow a known good battery try it. Wouldn't be the first Oddesy battery to go bad under warranty...I tried that by jumping off car battery. The starter drug a little bit at first but engine quickly caught, fired and cranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillrider Posted October 30, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 30, 2009 Runs fine on bench. Drags on bike. Cracked housing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyHorse Posted October 30, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) All your grounds to frame in good condition? Did you try jumping or bypassing the solenoid? I recently had this trouble jumped the terminals on the solenoid started fine put in another solenoid starts right up now. Try an new/replacement solenoid. Edited October 30, 2009 by CrazyHorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 30, 2009 Share #10 Posted October 30, 2009 Take your battery to autozone, they will check it for free. Sounds like you do not have enough amps to crank the engine. Volts run the electronics, amps start the motor. If you can start it by jumping it, but not with the battery itself, you have a bad battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslayer Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted October 30, 2009 All your grounds to frame in good condition? yesDid you try jumping or bypassing the solenoid? yes still dragsI recently had this trouble jumped the terminals on the solenoid started fine put in another solenoid starts right up now. same thing with two different solenoids both used both same thing.Try an new/replacement solenoid.On the subject of solenoids, I have had to replace the solenoid several times since owning the bike and never had much confidence or luck with the yamaha solenoid, especially since Yamaha wants $80.00 plus for a new solenoid I have heard or read on post in the past that a replacement car solenoid from NAPA was much cheaper and reliable but I have never been able to find out specifically which solenoid will work on the bike.. Can anyone help me with the answer to that question. I have asked that question several times before on this forum and no body has been able to give me an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslayer Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share #12 Posted October 30, 2009 Runs fine on bench. Drags on bike. Cracked housing??cracked starter housing? Please elaborate..... Housing appears to be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisolm1 Posted October 30, 2009 Share #13 Posted October 30, 2009 Starter solenoid from any late 60's ford product should do the job. Never tried one on a bike but they have large amperage input and output posts and 12V solenoid control so should be easy to figure out how to wire up. Look under the hood of any mustang, falcon, etc from that era and they are mounted prominently on the firewall. Probably a little larger than ours but not too big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhncue Posted October 30, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 30, 2009 Test your solenoid both for continuity and for resistance. Disconnect the cable from the solenoid from the starter so that you don't get that resistance. Then use your volt meter to check the voltage across the solenoid by first checking the battery voltage to ground and then checking the voltage from the starter side to ground by running your volt meter from the starter side to ground and the start button engaged. If these readings are the same or very close just test the ohm readings from one side the solenoid to the other. It should read infinity. If there is resistance then the contacts are burned. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrood Posted October 30, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 30, 2009 First, put a jumper cable between the battery ground and the starter bolt (checks for bad ground... The starter has an internal ground on the brush plate that has been found to be faulty or frail and needed replaced. A "giant" car battery probably provides enough current to overcome this resistance. That's where "I" would look. A starter under no load means absolutely nothing... The starter clutch WILL only spin free in one direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturbar Posted October 30, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 30, 2009 measuring battery voltage without a load is virtually useless, it can carry a 'surface charge' which gives incorrect useable voltage. you need to eliminate the areas which are good first. start by fully charging the battery then have it load tested at an auto store. is the starter relay in good condition.by-pass the solenoid/relay and see if the starter functions properly. i'm not convinced that a starter that works on the bench, will always work on the bike, they can have 'dead spot' in the commutator (the electrical section of the armature which contacts the brushes). have you checked the brushes in the starter - you can take starter to a shop who rebuilts them and have it tested. are the three removable gears you mentioned all in good condition. i know in my nova drag car if i didn't 'shim' the starter to get proper distance between the bendix and flywheel it would drag or not turn at all. is there any 'shimming' involved with your starter. these are some thoughts and only you can determine if they are applicable to your situation - i sure hope you can figure it out so you can get back to ridin' and less wrenchin'. best of luck, buz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5bikes Posted October 30, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 30, 2009 Getting it out is hard, but taking it apart is easy. Bad brushes, bad connections, poor grounding, worn bearings, burnt wiring, & dirty. Do the internal grounding project listed somewhere here on VR.org. It can only be: 1. Bad solenoid 2. Bad cables 3. Bad battery 4. Bad starter circuit (low amp side, starter button) 5. Bad starter Clean and check/replace one at a time, in the order above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS51 Posted October 30, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 30, 2009 i think i'll puy my 2ct/ in here from what you posted and the replies i would take the starter to good starter shop and have them do full test. you could have a bad winding on fiels or armature most likey grounded armature. if in question i would replace it with a new one then you will know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted October 30, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 30, 2009 Is it possible the starter shaft is engaging slightly off angle? Putting the gears in a bind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 31, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 31, 2009 In case you all missed it, he said it started with a jumper cable, that means the shaft is good, no breaks in housing, no solenoid issue. seeing how the oly thing that was changed to get it started was more power leads me to a battery. Anyone know what KISS means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted October 31, 2009 Share #21 Posted October 31, 2009 I agree, try a different battery. Jumping sort of proved it unless the starter is drawing waaaay too much current under load. MC batteries ao not have the current capabilities of a car battery. Beg, borrow, or steal a known god MC battery and replace (don't jump) and see how it starts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillrider Posted October 31, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 31, 2009 The thought was that something might be throwing the casting in a bind. The tell would be to back off on the mounting bolts a half turn and hit the starter, see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camos Posted October 31, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 31, 2009 I tried that by jumping off car battery. The starter drug a little bit at first but engine quickly caught, fired and cranked. So, it dragged a bit when he jumped it with a car battery but was that jumped at the battery or jumped at the starter? Could make a difference. Something else that could make a difference is the ground to the frame goes from the engine instead of from the battery. There could conceiveably be cruddy connections somewhere in that mix. Could be a faulty starter, relay or battery. I think more information is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS51 Posted October 31, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 31, 2009 I have to jump in here most starter motors are series wound motors. that when all the amps that flow from the battery flow though both the series field and then one brush then the armetuer then the other bursh to groub (motor frame) on series wound DC motors the only thing that limits the speed is the load. sitting on the bench the load is very low, current is low if a winding were to ground out the motor could still run and look OK but when you put a load on the current goes up it could be as much as 100 amps or more on a bike. I know on a standard V8 I have seen a starter pull as much as 300 to 400 amps to crank it over. when you pull that much current through anything things move, windings shift it is possable that a winding is shifting and grounding out under load. with a battery the current that can be delivered is limited to what the battery can deliver. From the post the cranking voltage is down to 10V or so on a fully charged battery if the motor is free and can be cranked over ok then ther is something grounding the starter. It could be a grounded field or a dead spot on the armeture, motor shops may not be able to find it. thats why in your case I would recomend just replace the starter. the one test I would do is with a heavy duty jumper cable (#4 or larger) jump from a good car battery directly to the starter motor wire (after the solenoid) if it drags then it is deffenitly the starter . A car battery can supply 200 to 400 amps it's either going to crank it over or smoke the starter. Either way if it takes that much to crank it over the starter is shot. If you were closer to me I would stop over and check it for you this is the best advise I can offer. You have alread spend to much time on this that a new starter would be cheap at this point If It would help PM me with your phone number I will call you and try to talk you through it. Gary:080402gudl_prv: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonslayer Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share #25 Posted October 31, 2009 Take your battery to autozone, they will check it for free. Sounds like you do not have enough amps to crank the engine. Volts run the electronics, amps start the motor. If you can start it by jumping it, but not with the battery itself, you have a bad battery.Took the battery to autozone as suggested to have load tested the battery checked out alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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