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clutch bleeder valve location!

Twodog35
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Twodog35

Twodog35

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I found the bleeder valve.

here is what is happening...

I took clutch cable off of reservoir that goes on handle bars to re route the cable because I put new handlebars on.

now what happens is I have bike in neutral, start bike, clutch lever is pulled in, when I shift into 1st gear, bike kills

 

im stumped! it did not do this before I put new bars on, could I still have a lot of air in line? I power bled it for a long time.

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bongobobny

bongobobny

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Posted (edited)
I found the bleeder valve.

here is what is happening...

I took clutch cable off of reservoir that goes on handle bars to re route the cable because I put new handlebars on.

now what happens is I have bike in neutral, start bike, clutch lever is pulled in, when I shift into 1st gear, bike kills

 

im stumped! it did not do this before I put new bars on, could I still have a lot of air in line? I power bled it for a long time.

Sounds like a bad kickstand switch...

 

Or, more likely your clutch switch is not properly secured to the assembly, or you accidentally unplugged it! The bike will start in neutral without the clutch squeezed, it's how it works, but as soon as you go into gear and the kickstand is not up the circuit will sense this if the clutch switch is not properly seated. There are 2 sets of contacts, one for the cruise control that turns the cruise off if you depress the clutch, and the other set that kills the ignition IF you are not in neutral with the kickstand down AND the clutch is not squeezed.

Edited by bongobobny
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cowpuc

cowpuc

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Before running to an Ag store and buying a cheap syringe to use to back wash the system like Condor is talking about, here is something I have done successfully many times with my 1st Gen Clutches thru the years.

Think of the system in sections, starting with the Master up on the bars.. You wanna get that area headed in the right direction first.. Gonna be kind of messy so prepare for that by grabbing some rags to stuff around and under the master and hose area.. The bango bolt connection is a fine place for air to gather as is the piston inside the master.. Level the master as best you can, open it, fill it, crack the connection at the bango and squeeze LIGHTLY and slowly watching what is coming out of the connection at the bango. If you see nothing you may have to loosen more so you allow the crush washers to gap away.. Tighten bango, release lever carefully (like your bleeding on a bleeder) and watch the back flow orvice in the bottom of the master to make sure its not plugged. Now do it again watching the connection at the bango to see what kind of flow - watch for air just like watching a bleeder - keep in mind you are bleeding the system from the bango to get a solid lever.. Few times of this - if you end up with a solid lever = all set,, if not,,, you may have to fully remove the line.. I have found it necessary to actually remove the line at the bango = messy job but doable.. You unhook the line and move it up so the bango end is in its highest position so fluid dont leak out. If you have kids, before you start this process go inside the house and tell one of them to get off the video game for a few minutes and come help you.. Unhook the line at the master and have the kid pinch the bango between their finger and thumb to plug it off - now tell em to stand still and be quiet while you concentrate..

Hold your thumb over the hole where the bango bolt enters the master. Now bleed against your thumb in the same way you would bleed on a bleeder only you shouldnt have to release your thumb as the air bleeds off and you build pressure - with a little practice and "feel" you can actually feel the air building against your finger/thumb.. Bleed master until you get good pressure with no air. Now quickly reattach the bango and line and rebleed off the bango...

I have done the above many many times and done so successfully without having to rebleed at the slave down between the forward bevel gear and the stator BUT that may be cause I have done it a few times.. Try it and if it doesnt work and if it doesnt work, jump back on here and either I or someone will instruct you in a back bleed..

Does any of this make sense?? I have many times been told I am hard to follow and that my ideas are somewhat backwards so dont be afraid to say,, Puc your nuts,, I think I will wait for a guru to help.. Wont offend me in the least..

Puc

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Du-Rron

Du-Rron

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How do I reverse bleed?

 

Well. It seems we have a newby. And their aint nothing wrong with being a newby. You reverse bleed a clutch by first covering the bike entirely in plastic and getting yourself a raincoat to wear. Reverse bleeding is extremely effective, and depending on how many beers you have had, can possibly paint your entire garage with brake fluid.

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camos

camos

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Posted
Well. It seems we have a newby. And their aint nothing wrong with being a newby. You reverse bleed a clutch by first covering the bike entirely in plastic and getting yourself a raincoat to wear. Reverse bleeding is extremely effective, and depending on how many beers you have had, can possibly paint your entire garage with brake fluid.
Now you are just being mean. :buttkick:

 

What Puc is trying to describe in waay too many words is how to bleed the lever pump in the MC. That is not usually necessary to do unless the reservoir has been pumped dry. If there is air in the pump it will be obvious because no fluid will be pushed through the line and the level will not go down in the MC.

 

As our loquacious one has pointed out, first cover the area under and around the MC then remove the banjo bolt. Hold your finger on the opening and squeeze the lever quickly until you can feel pressure on your finger. When that happens, while keeping pressure on the lever, remove your finger and let whatever fluid that has managed to get into the pump out. Hopefully the pump will now be primed. If not do it again until it is. This is where reverse bleeding can be done by squirting a little fluid into the banjo opening. Keep your finger over the hole until you can insert and start the banjo bolt.

 

Getting the lever pump primed is absolutely necessary before you can bleed the system. When the pump is working and the banjo has been tightened you can begin bleeding the rest of the system. To do that all that is necessary is to attach a hose to the bleeder valve so there is a few inches or more of hose going up before it turns down to a receptacle like a bottle. Open the bleeder and pump the lever quickly. Leave the bleeder open until all the air is pushed out. You will see fluid being pumped through the hose. If you stop pumping you will see there is still fluid sitting at the bleeder valve up to where the hose turns down. As long as the hose fits tightly on the bleeder, no air can get back into the bleeder valve because of the fluid that is on top of it.

 

The MC must not be pumped dry or you will have to start over again. The MC lid should be put back on the reservoir while pumping or the relief valve will squirt fluid out. Watch the level in the reservoir's window to make sure it does not get pumped dry. Pumping quickly is important because you have to overcome gravity which will try to make any air in the system float up.

 

Once you think all air has been removed, close the bleeder valve and remove the hose and you should be done.

 

Not counting having to prime the pump, this bleeding job should take no more than about 10 minutes.

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Condor

Condor

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Posted (edited)
How do I reverse bleed?

Question...when Im bleeding the clutch, I have master cylinder cover off, I crack bleeder, pull clutch lever in, tighten bleeder, release clutch lever...

Should I be pumping clutch lever at any point??

 

Nope you don't pump up the presure like you're doing the brakes......

 

Well. It seems we have a newby. And their aint nothing wrong with being a newby. You reverse bleed a clutch by first covering the bike entirely in plastic and getting yourself a raincoat to wear. Reverse bleeding is extremely effective, and depending on how many beers you have had, can possibly paint your entire garage with brake fluid.

 

Don't let this post scare you. Not messy at all unless you kick the DOT bottle over....

 

Before running to an Ag store and buying a cheap syringe to use to back wash the system like Condor is talking about, here is something I have done successfully many times with my 1st Gen Clutches thru the years.

Think of the system in sections, starting with the Master up on the bars.. You wanna get that area headed in the right direction first.. Gonna be kind of messy so prepare for that by grabbing some rags to stuff around and under the master and hose area.. The bango bolt connection is a fine place for air to gather as is the piston inside the master.. Level the master as best you can, open it, fill it, crack the connection at the bango and squeeze LIGHTLY and slowly watching what is coming out of the connection at the bango. If you see nothing you may have to loosen more so you allow the crush washers to gap away.. Tighten bango, release lever carefully (like your bleeding on a bleeder) and watch the back flow orvice in the bottom of the master to make sure its not plugged. Now do it again watching the connection at the bango to see what kind of flow - watch for air just like watching a bleeder - keep in mind you are bleeding the system from the bango to get a solid lever.. Few times of this - if you end up with a solid lever = all set,, if not,,, you may have to fully remove the line.. I have found it necessary to actually remove the line at the bango = messy job but doable.. You unhook the line and move it up so the bango end is in its highest position so fluid dont leak out. If you have kids, before you start this process go inside the house and tell one of them to get off the video game for a few minutes and come help you.. Unhook the line at the master and have the kid pinch the bango between their finger and thumb to plug it off - now tell em to stand still and be quiet while you concentrate..

Hold your thumb over the hole where the bango bolt enters the master. Now bleed against your thumb in the same way you would bleed on a bleeder only you shouldnt have to release your thumb as the air bleeds off and you build pressure - with a little practice and "feel" you can actually feel the air building against your finger/thumb.. Bleed master until you get good pressure with no air. Now quickly reattach the bango and line and rebleed off the bango...

I have done the above many many times and done so successfully without having to rebleed at the slave down between the forward bevel gear and the stator BUT that may be cause I have done it a few times.. Try it and if it doesnt work and if it doesnt work, jump back on here and either I or someone will instruct you in a back bleed..

Does any of this make sense?? I have many times been told I am hard to follow and that my ideas are somewhat backwards so dont be afraid to say,, Puc your nuts,, I think I will wait for a guru to help.. Wont offend me in the least..

Puc

 

ANOTHER WAY....

Here's a procedure write up on the reasons why you reverse bleed and how to do it.... Cme up with this after pulling out what little hair I had left trying to do it a 'normal' way...

 

When trying to bleed a clutch that is completely empty of fluid on a Venture, it’s very difficult…maybe impossible… to get all the air purged out of the lines normally because of the relation of the reserve to the slave. Unlike bleeding the brakes where the pressure is built up by rapid pumping the pedal or lever, the clutch does not build pressure. Squeezing the clutch lever has to be done slowly and constantly. Using this method causes the air bubbles in the lines to move down toward the slave with each stroke. During the release of the lever the air bubble rises upward in the line. Air rises. So in effect you end up with these bubbles rising and falling and going nowhere. I seen threads over the years where the owner has struggled for days to get the clutch properly bled.

 

Reverse bleeding is done by forcing DOT fluid into the slave bleeder valve and forcing the air up the line and into the reserve. This can be done several ways. If you have a Speed-Bleeder installed it will have to be removed. If you have a regular bleeder, the reverse bleed can be done with the valve in and open, or you can remove the valve like a speed-bleeder. I find the removal of the valve the easiest.

 

Take a rubber ear wax remover blub that you can find in your local drug store and snip the tip off a little bit at a time until it fits into the threads of the removed valve. It should fit snuggly and the opening should be a bit off the bottom of the hole in the slave.

 

Remove all the fluid in the reserve.

 

Suck up enough new fluid to fill the bulb, insert it in the threads of the slave and force the fluid into the slave. Keep an eye on the reserve to make sure it doesn’t overflow. Not good. Sometimes you can hear bubbles as they make their way out of the line and into the reserve. If the bulb runs out of fluid it can be reloaded. The hole can be blocked off with your finger while refilling. When no more bubbles appear stick the bleeder valve back into the slave, adjust the level of the fluid in the reserve to about half full, replace the reserve top and you’re good to go.

 

This whole process can be done in about 15 minutes. When done, go for a ride.

 

PS: After first opening up the reserve, lightly squeeze the clutch lever a tad. The surface of the fluid in the reserve should deform slightly. Squeeze hard and you’ll end up with fluid on you and the bike. Not good. What this shows you is that the expansion orifice is clear and functioning. If it’s plugged the hot expanded fluid will have no place to go, and start to push on the slave as if you were actually pulling the lever. The clutch will start to slip. This is also why the reserve should be only filled half way. I have seen owners spend a lot of money rebuilding their clutches, and all they had was a plugged expansion hole.

 

PPS: The slipping problem can also be created by the reserve being over full. The fluid level should be set to the middle of the sight glass.

 

PPPS: Getting to the slave can be a hassle on a 2ndgen. Remove the fake fins and you'll have a ton of room....

 

Hope this helps

Edited by Condor
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Condor

Condor

Posted
Posted
Speed bleeder (M8-1.25) and a good vacuum pump works every time for me...

 

That makes sense, and it's what I tried the first time on the '83. Not much luck and the pump is now sitting in the bottom drawer of the roll-away... Maybe I wasn't pumping fast enough??

 

BTW I was one of those guys that rebuilt the entire clutch system:mo money: , and all it was was a plugged expansion hole...

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Flyinfool

Flyinfool

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Posted (edited)

Just as an FYI.

There have been many mentions of covering things up before you start. The reason for this is that brake fluid is an excellent paint remover. It will eat thru any painted surface on the bike. The other nasty habit that brake fluid has is the it eats ABS plastic, Almost all of the plastic on your bike is ABS. The tiniest drop of brake fluid will eat a 3 inch hole thru any plastic part.

The good news is that brake fluid and water mix well, So as soon as you are done bleeding get out the garden hose and rinse everything down really good to remove any brake fluid that got past your coverings.

Edited by Flyinfool
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camos

camos

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Posted
Speed bleeder (M8-1.25) and a good vacuum pump works every time for me...
Yes it should but they are an unnecessary complication. The method I described works every time, is simple, economic and can be done anywhere. Works just as well when bleeding brakes.

 

There is no point in making life harder than it needs to be.

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Condor

Condor

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Posted
Just as an FYI.

There have been many mentions of covering things up before you start. The reason for this is that brake fluid is an excellent paint remover. It will eat thru any painted surface on the bike. The other nasty habit that brake fluid has is the it eats ABS plastic, Almost all of the plastic on your bike is ABS. The tiniest drop of brake fluid will eat a 3 inch hole thru any plastic part.

The good news is that brake fluid and water mix well, So as soon as you are done bleeding get out the garden hose and rinse everything down really good to remove any brake fluid that got past your coverings.

 

I knew about the DOT paint remover, but I've never had it effect the ABS..?? I know acetone will dissolve abs big time. Fred Voyt used to add pieces of abs to a jar with acetone anytime he had some left overs, and over a time it thickened and became a tar/slurry that made a great abs crack filler/hole repair glue. Kinda like keeping a sourdough pancake batter culture going... :-)

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Flyinfool

Flyinfool

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Posted
I knew about the DOT paint remover, but I've never had it effect the ABS..?? I know acetone will dissolve abs big time. Fred Voyt used to add pieces of abs to a jar with acetone anytime he had some left overs, and over a time it thickened and became a tar/slurry that made a great abs crack filler/hole repair glue. Kinda like keeping a sourdough pancake batter culture going... :-)

 

There are a few members here that had to buy a new faring after spilling brake fluid on a faring. It eats the ABS slowly, first it soaks into the plastic then a few weeks later you will notice a soft spot that will finally crumble away and the edges of the hole will keep growing outward over time. You can not patch the hole because the brake fluid is still part of the plastic, you have to cut it out to be sure that you got it all and can then try to patch what is left.

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camos

camos

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Posted
I knew about the DOT paint remover, but I've never had it effect the ABS..?? I know acetone will dissolve abs big time. Fred Voyt used to add pieces of abs to a jar with acetone anytime he had some left overs, and over a time it thickened and became a tar/slurry that made a great abs crack filler/hole repair glue. Kinda like keeping a sourdough pancake batter culture going... :-)
That is essentially how my MEK/ABS method works. MEK solvent is better at dissolving ABS than acetone is and does not dissolve paint.
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Twodog35

Twodog35

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UPDATE

 

After hours and hours of working on bleeding clutch I was finally able to get all the air out!

Thanks Puc...I did start at the Master cylinder/banjo fitting and got clean fluid to come out with no air. Then I moved down to the bleeder valve. I cracked it, slowly pulled clutch lever, then tightened it, release lever. I only had to do this about 25 times! But never gave up. One clutch lever was back to how it should be, I started bike, pulled in clutch and shifted into gear....and didn't quit! Test drove it.

Turned out to be a great weekend put on 100's of miles with no issues! Love the new 10" bagger apes, and new fusion Radio!!

Thanks everyone for your help and patience...

 

" newby"

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camos

camos

Posted
Posted
UPDATE

 

After hours and hours of working on bleeding clutch I was finally able to get all the air out!

Thanks Puc...I did start at the Master cylinder/banjo fitting and got clean fluid to come out with no air. Then I moved down to the bleeder valve. I cracked it, slowly pulled clutch lever, then tightened it, release lever. I only had to do this about 25 times! But never gave up. One clutch lever was back to how it should be, I started bike, pulled in clutch and shifted into gear....and didn't quit!

Hours and hours? Amazing!!

 

Well be consoled, you are not the only one on here who has chosen to do this job wrong and spend a humongous amount of time to get it accomplished. Be prepared to spend weeks when it comes time to bleed the brakes.

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mindt

mindt

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Posted

I tried the gravity method also. After poring a full bottle of fluid in to flush the system I still had no pressure. Had to use vacuum bleeder. Need to keep a really close eye on resi because the bleeder will suck it dry faster than you think. ( Drained mine twice ... Oops)

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camos

camos

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I tried the gravity method also. After poring a full bottle of fluid in to flush the system I still had no pressure. Had to use vacuum bleeder. Need to keep a really close eye on resi because the bleeder will suck it dry faster than you think. ( Drained mine twice ... Oops)
I am not a great believer in the gravity method which only kinda-sorta works and is pretty much just a desperation Hail Mary. Using a vacuum bleeder comes with its own complications and isn't necessary if the lever is pumped quickly to move any air out before gravity allows the bubbles to move back up the line.

 

The other potential problem is allowing air back in at the bleeder valve. Speed bleeders will take care of that issue by automatically closing when pressure on the fluid is stopped. These are not necessary either if the waste hose goes up a few inches or more before turning down into the container keeping a head of fluid at the bleeder valve.

 

I think the post I made below in this thread is descriptive enough on how to go about accomplishing this job but there is a post with pix that I made a while ago on Cleaning and Bleeding Brakes which goes into more detail. When done right it is literally a 10 minute job to bleed the clutch. Similarly, it is about 10 min per caliper when doing the brakes. That is on a MkII, the MkI's don't have the bleeder at the triple-tree which is problematic and I don't know if the Gen 2's have that bleeder either.

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