First_N_Last Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share #26 Posted February 7, 2013 JohnnyB, that is a lot of cracking. The tires wear does look good, as you said, but those sidewall crakcs are baddddddddd, and not in a good way. How old are these tires????? I know you said 10,000 miles...but I mean how OLD are they...age??? The tire is less than two years old. I average 10,000 miles a year. I've gone through two others which were used as a rear tire. The first rear was changed out by Avon for the cracking. The replacement started cracking four months after it was put in use. That one was used solely with my MTC Voyager Trike conversion. A side affect of using a Voyager kit is that you will burn out the rear tire real quick if you have to much preload on it. If you don't have enough preload, it will handle poorly. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share #27 Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) The tire is less than two years old. I average 10,000 miles a year. I've gone through two others which were used as a rear tire. The first rear was changed out by Avon for the cracking. The replacement started cracking four months after it was put in use. That one was used solely with my MTC Voyager Trike conversion. A side affect of using a Voyager kit is that you will burn out the rear tire real quick if you have to much preload on it. If you don't have enough preload, it will handle poorly. John OOPS - Correction (checked old posts) I bought & mounted the AM42 on the front in July of 2010. It must have over 15,000 miles on it now. John Edited February 9, 2013 by First_N_Last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted February 8, 2013 Share #28 Posted February 8, 2013 Thankfully my Avon venom X tires have NO sidewall crack at the time of this post. Those cracks would scare me into riding 2 up or very far if at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share #29 Posted February 8, 2013 By the way - for anyone interested... Here is the current Warranty info from the Avon Tyre website. Warranty Procedure *Warranty Adjustment Procedure: Note: Due to the latest requirements of the federal government’s Tread Act, we must strictly enforce this procedure. Rider: If you believe you have a warranty please contact the dealer or on-line retailer where you purchased the tire. They will examine the tire and contact their distributor if they believe the tire is warrantable. See limited tire warranty (link here) Authorized Motorcycle Dealer: 1) Examine the tire to determine if it qualifies for adjustment based on Avon’s motorcycle warranty (see link) 2) If tire is warrantable return tire to distributor for adjustment with following information: Tire size, model, issue, area in question clearly marked, tire issue, production date of tire 3) Brief note describing the issue is helpful 4) Handle customer in accordance to Avon’s warranty guidelines. Tire with less than 50% wear is no charge. Tire with more than 50% wear is prorated. 5) Bear in mind that the distributor may determine the tire is not warrantable so if in doubt please call your distributor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLeftArm Posted February 8, 2013 Share #30 Posted February 8, 2013 Hey, John. What is the date stamp on the tire? I recently bought tires, and was considering Rick Butler. I called them and they told me that they considered a 5 year old tire off the shelf "brand new". I also found lots of articles out there, and the going opinion is that a 6 year old tire is unsafe. Since Butler is willing to sell me old tires, I decided to deal locally and get new tires. My local dealer guaranteed and delivered tires that were 3 months old, AND matched prices with Rick Butler. FWIW, I wouldn't trust the tire in your pics any further than I could throw it. Never had a blowout on a bike, but I've had a lot of them in 18 wheelers. Not a pretty sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share #31 Posted February 8, 2013 Hey, John. What is the date stamp on the tire? I recently bought tires, and was considering Rick Butler. I called them and they told me that they considered a 5 year old tire off the shelf "brand new". I also found lots of articles out there, and the going opinion is that a 6 year old tire is unsafe. Since Butler is willing to sell me old tires, I decided to deal locally and get new tires. My local dealer guaranteed and delivered tires that were 3 months old, AND matched prices with Rick Butler. FWIW, I wouldn't trust the tire in your pics any further than I could throw it. Never had a blowout on a bike, but I've had a lot of them in 18 wheelers. Not a pretty sight. Avon's website states this about the age of tires... Avon Motorcycle Tyres recommend tires should be used within 5 years of the manufacturing date on the tire. Tire should then be removed after a total of 7 years from the manufacturing date. Tires beyond this date will not be warranteed. I'll have to search for the date code on the tire. Latter... JohnB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share #32 Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) Hey, John. What is the date stamp on the tire? I recently bought tires, and was considering Rick Butler. I called them and they told me that they considered a 5 year old tire off the shelf "brand new". I also found lots of articles out there, and the going opinion is that a 6 year old tire is unsafe. Since Butler is willing to sell me old tires, I decided to deal locally and get new tires. My local dealer guaranteed and delivered tires that were 3 months old, AND matched prices with Rick Butler. FWIW, I wouldn't trust the tire in your pics any further than I could throw it. Never had a blowout on a bike, but I've had a lot of them in 18 wheelers. Not a pretty sight. Knowing that it is suppose to start raining for a day soon (1 to 3 inches), I crawled around in the dark & got the date code. It is 4309. So the tire I bought in June/July 2010 from Rocky Mountain was about 10 months old. That seems reasonable for an odd size 150/80B-16 AM42. BTW - they don't seem to make that size anymore. I'll have to replace it with ... 90000000778 AM42 160/80B16 81H MT4.00 3.50 - 4.50 6.6 W 26.2 H 8.7mm tread That is a 81H load with about 11/32 of tread. Edited February 9, 2013 by First_N_Last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted February 8, 2013 Share #33 Posted February 8, 2013 Just MHO that tire would NOT be on my bike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLeftArm Posted February 8, 2013 Share #34 Posted February 8, 2013 Yeah, but damn that tire shouldn't be cracking like that. I think Avon should replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted February 8, 2013 Share #35 Posted February 8, 2013 I have Avon venom Xon mine. The front is 4 yrs old, the back 1.5. There is not even a hint of visible cracking on either tire. I am thankful for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1MECH Posted February 9, 2013 Share #36 Posted February 9, 2013 One of the major offenders of ruber products, like tires, is ozone, the damage that ozone causes is severeing of the bonds of the rubber and reinforcing in the rubber. The damage shown in the photos appears to me to be very simlar to typical ozone attack that is aggrevated by stess on the rubber, such as vehicle weight and internal presure. A few typical sources of ozone generation are , electrical motors (arching of the brushes) , high voltage discharges ( like you find in copy machines or arc welders) and exhaust gasses from hydrocarbon burning vehicles (like propane fueled forklifts). It is very possible that large warehouses like you would expect some of the online parts dealers and tire distributors to use propane forklifts. If the tires are stored for some time in this environment they could very easily be affected, they may not manifest the visible defects until they are mounted, pressurized and ridden for some time, which caues the side wall to flex, aggravating the stress fractures caused by the breaking of the polymer chains. I run a test lab where we have our elastomeric compounds tested for ozone damage and I have seen this over and over again, especially on natural ruber and Nitrile rubber, both are used heavily in the tire industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share #37 Posted February 9, 2013 One of the major offenders of ruber products, like tires, is ozone, the damage that ozone causes is severeing of the bonds of the rubber and reinforcing in the rubber. The damage shown in the photos appears to me to be very simlar to typical ozone attack that is aggrevated by stess on the rubber, such as vehicle weight and internal presure. A few typical sources of ozone generation are , electrical motors (arching of the brushes) , high voltage discharges ( like you find in copy machines or arc welders) and exhaust gasses from hydrocarbon burning vehicles (like propane fueled forklifts). It is very possible that large warehouses like you would expect some of the online parts dealers and tire distributors to use propane forklifts. If the tires are stored for some time in this environment they could very easily be affected, they may not manifest the visible defects until they are mounted, pressurized and ridden for some time, which caues the side wall to flex, aggravating the stress fractures caused by the breaking of the polymer chains. I run a test lab where we have our elastomeric compounds tested for ozone damage and I have seen this over and over again, especially on natural ruber and Nitrile rubber, both are used heavily in the tire industry. Very interesting info - thanks for taking the time to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrycuda Posted February 9, 2013 Share #38 Posted February 9, 2013 One of the major offenders of ruber products, like tires, is ozone, the damage that ozone causes is severeing of the bonds of the rubber and reinforcing in the rubber. The damage shown in the photos appears to me to be very simlar to typical ozone attack that is aggrevated by stess on the rubber, such as vehicle weight and internal presure. A few typical sources of ozone generation are , electrical motors (arching of the brushes) , high voltage discharges ( like you find in copy machines or arc welders) and exhaust gasses from hydrocarbon burning vehicles (like propane fueled forklifts). It is very possible that large warehouses like you would expect some of the online parts dealers and tire distributors to use propane forklifts. If the tires are stored for some time in this environment they could very easily be affected, they may not manifest the visible defects until they are mounted, pressurized and ridden for some time, which caues the side wall to flex, aggravating the stress fractures caused by the breaking of the polymer chains. I run a test lab where we have our elastomeric compounds tested for ozone damage and I have seen this over and over again, especially on natural ruber and Nitrile rubber, both are used heavily in the tire industry. Nice info Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1MECH Posted February 9, 2013 Share #39 Posted February 9, 2013 I found this on a tire website Ozone Protection Waxes are used to protect tires against ozone. When tires are being driven they flex. This flexing causes the protective waxes to move to the surface where they form a physical barrier between the air --which contains ozone and oxygen-- and the tire polymer. This is called blooming. When tires are not regularly used, such as a parked RV, boat trailer, or classic car, this blooming does not happen. Ozone then starts eating away the protective wax and before long reaches the tire polymer. Often by this time, the surface carbon black has lost its ability to protect against UV. With UV light and ozone working together, deterioration starts. The tire dries, checks, and will eventually crack. Read more: http://www.tire-information-world.com/tire-sidewall-deterioration.html#ixzz2KPJIxXdv This could happen during long term storage at wholesalers, also why many tires are wrapped in paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted February 9, 2013 Share #40 Posted February 9, 2013 Folks, I agree with everything that is being said about the affect of ozone on rubber and etc. but I am still convinced that Avon has, or had, a problem. Over the years, my bike has sat through the winter in the same exact place with no differences from year to year and my last set of Avons were the only ones that have ever cracked like that. I've had Dunlop and Michelins before and none of them cracked. I took a chance and replaced them with another set of Avons and so far, they seem to be doing OK. Haven't looked at them closely though. Will do so before the riding season starts. I really like the Avons but if this set cracks, it will be my last ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1MECH Posted February 9, 2013 Share #41 Posted February 9, 2013 The issue could very well be that the formula for the rubber used on the outer carcass changed slightly and a new anti ozonite was used that did not perform as well, if they use differenent compounders to mix the raw material for the outer carcass, seeming small changes in the process of mixing and milling the rubber can have huge affects on the finished product. When they add the anti ozone wax in the process can have an affect, how long they mix the batch can have an affect, if the ingriedients are not dispersed properly that will affect the finished product. So what I am saying is it not unheard of to have batch to batch differences in rubber mixing that yield different performance levels for what should be the same product. Rubber compounding and mixing is as much an art as it a science. If the problem is sporadic then it is probably process related, if the problem is endemic then it is probably a function of the chemistry of the compound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dacheedah Posted February 9, 2013 Share #42 Posted February 9, 2013 I know ozone can cause problems, old scuba gear instructions, but I would think that all the rubber would suffer cracking, not just the sidewalls near the rim. I do think it would start in the thinnest (weakest) walls first and work it's way out. This is what you see in an old, like 10 year old, trailer tire that is constantly exposed to the weather. and not supposed to use protectants on bike tires, just bad for grip and I need all the grip I can have. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowrollwv Posted February 9, 2013 Share #43 Posted February 9, 2013 A friend of mine on another forum had three sets of Avons to crack. Avon replaced them but told him that this was the last set they would replace. They ended up sending him a set from a different tire maker to get it straitened out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share #44 Posted February 10, 2013 Thanks to all for their concerns, info and/or comments. My thoughts are that my Avon Venom is a great wearing handling tire. The cracking is cosmetic & present within 1 to 2 inches from the rim. This tire casing appears to be thickest at this point while, the sidewall surface rubber coating is thinnest in that same area. The rest of the tread & sidewall is pristine. The tire is performing great. I have encountered this type of close-to-rim sidewall cracking on other manufacturer's tires over the past years & all on cruiser style bikes. They were all used until they wore out without issue. My intent for starting this thread was to share my inspection woes, and to wine a little. lol Avon has had cosmetic sidewall cracking for a few years and current produced tires seem to be working fine now. That is good to hear. My plan is to use this tire until it wears out & then to replace it with another high mileage Avon Venom AM42. Once again, I thank everyone for their comments & respect your views. JohnnyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted February 10, 2013 Share #45 Posted February 10, 2013 It was mentioned that Ozone in the atmosphere is the cause of cracking. That may be but I would think that UV light is also a major contributor. It causes rubber and plastics to dry out and get brittle. The shields you see on RV are not air tight....but they do provide shading for the tires. I used to have a fleet of mobile signs...you know the kind.....plywood face with changeable florescent chloroplast letters. After a couple of years use you could almost crumble the letters in your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1MECH Posted February 10, 2013 Share #46 Posted February 10, 2013 The carbon black used in the rubber does three things, makes the tires black, gives the rubber tensile and tear strength and acts to protect from UV raditaion by converting the UV radiation to heat. in my lab we have tested the same rubber compounds for exposure to UV and to ozone, the black ones that are affected by ozone are affected but to a much lesser degree by the UV exposure. UV can be very harmful to plastics that do not have a UV stabilizer in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share #47 Posted February 17, 2013 My old cracking sidewall Avon Venom AM42 tire was removed from my bike today. I calculated the mileage on the tire (after checking records) to be around 17,000. The tire had 11/32 tread when put in service & had 6/32 when removed today. About 1/2 it's tread was used. The replacement tire is mounted & balanced on the rim. Rain & sleet kept me from putting it back on today - maybe tomorrow. The tire is an Avon Cobra AV72 MT90B16 with a date code of 3312. This tire has a 74 load rating & 11/32 tread in the center - 10/32 on each side. Time will tell how it wears & handles as my Trike's front tire. JohnnyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainJoe Posted February 17, 2013 Share #48 Posted February 17, 2013 John, Best of luck with those Avons. It seems odd that dunlop or any other tire for that fact, doesn't have a sidewall cracking problem like Avon? i've had tires sidewalls crack on my vehicles but only after sitting outdoors in the direct sunlight. Just keep a close eye on them. Be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playboy Posted February 17, 2013 Share #49 Posted February 17, 2013 I know you had a reason just wondering why the Cobra versus the Venom ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_N_Last Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share #50 Posted February 17, 2013 I know you had a reason just wondering why the Cobra versus the Venom ? I came across a special one of a kind deal from a friend. The deal made it worthwhile to check out the new Cobra compounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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