Craigs87 Posted August 4, 2011 Share #1 Posted August 4, 2011 I have a 1987 VR that when you hit the starter button there is a whining noise of the starter turning but not fire. Right now it is on the center stand, in neutral, kick stand up, kill switch on position. No change with the clutch held in either. New plugs New wires New TCI New Starter relay New Battery Starter checks good (have used two with no change) Following the troubleshooting guide in the maintenance manual good ohm readings on: Pickup coils Stator Coils Connectors all clean. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted August 4, 2011 Share #2 Posted August 4, 2011 I have a 1987 VR that when you hit the starter button there is a whining noise of the starter turning but not fire. Do you hear the engine turning over, or just the low volume of the starter only turning. This will sound stupid, don't mean it that way, if your not sure pull a plug, put your finger near spark plug hole and crank it, sounds like you know the difference though. Two totally different set of problems if is the starter, or a no fire condition. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Haywood Posted August 4, 2011 Share #3 Posted August 4, 2011 I have a 1987 VR that when you hit the starter button there is a whining noise of the starter turning but not fire. Right now it is on the center stand, in neutral, kick stand up, kill switch on position. No change with the clutch held in either. New plugs New wires New TCI New Starter relay New Battery Starter checks good (have used two with no change) Following the troubleshooting guide in the maintenance manual good ohm readings on: Pickup coils Stator Coils Connectors all clean. Craig Is the motor actually turning over? You don't say anything about gas? Is it getting gas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted August 4, 2011 No spark at the plugs. It sounds like the engine is turning but no fire to the plugs. Should have said the kill switch in "Run". This has been going on for a while and progressively getting worse. Longer periods before the engine fires. Gas is getting to the engine. When you turn on the ignition you can hear the fuel pump. New fuel filter about 1K miles ago. I don't think it is the starter. One is the OEM 2 contact which I have had open, cleaned and tested the coils. The other is an after market 4 contact and it has been opened, cleaned and coils tested. Both good torque on bench test too. Really perplex at this point. Really though the new TCI would correct it. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted August 4, 2011 Also have used two regulator/rectifiers with no change. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dray Posted August 4, 2011 Share #6 Posted August 4, 2011 pick up coils ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted August 4, 2011 Share #7 Posted August 4, 2011 No spark at the plugs. It sounds like the engine is turning but no fire to the plugs. Really perplex at this point. Really though the new TCI would correct it. Craig What year was the 'new' TCI from? Yours can use anything from 84-89 Venture or an 85-89 VMax. Attached is a layout of a 83-89 TCI that one of our members made up. Couple of points to check, pull the 6 pin connector on the TCI. Put meter on lowest Ohms scale and see if there is any continuity (0 -5 ohms) from pin 'D' to ground. This is the TCI kill circuit, the 'Fall over sensor or side stand can make this pin read ground. Key can be 'Off' for this one. If it is grounded, this will prevent TCI from operating. Pull the 8 pin connector on the TCI and check pin '8' and see if there is continuity to ground. Should be 0 ohms or close to that. Again, key 'Off'. This is the negative power side of TCI. Turn the key 'On', and with meter at 15VDC scale or higher, ground negative probe to battery and check for 12VDC on pin '1' on 8 pin cable on TCI. This is the power circuit to run the TCI. If all this looks OK, check the pick up coils. There is a 6 pin connector on left side rear, near the shock damper knob. This connector has 5 used pins. The Black wire is common to all 4 coils. The Black wire is the one in the slot that has the empty space above it, sometimes this connector is so dirty its hard to tell wire colors. You should read about 95-120 ohms from the Black wire to each ot the other 4 wires. If they are all close to the same reading and in that range, they are probably OK. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted August 4, 2011 Share #8 Posted August 4, 2011 No spark at the plugs. It sounds like the engine is turning but no fire to the plugs. Should have said the kill switch in "Run". This has been going on for a while and progressively getting worse. Longer periods before the engine fires. Gas is getting to the engine. When you turn on the ignition you can hear the fuel pump. New fuel filter about 1K miles ago. I don't think it is the starter. One is the OEM 2 contact which I have had open, cleaned and tested the coils. The other is an after market 4 contact and it has been opened, cleaned and coils tested. Both good torque on bench test too. Really perplex at this point. Really though the new TCI would correct it. Craig Just because you can hear the pump run does not mean that you are getting gas to the engine. Did you actually test for no spark or just assume that since all else seemed good that it must be no spark. When you are cranking the engine, do you get any tach reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted August 4, 2011 No spark at the plugs. Have tested the coils good. Readings were in the 99-101 Omns range for all four. Gas is getting to engine. You can smell it. So far all resistance readings are good thru out the starting system (except the TCI checks Gary pointed out.) Will try those checks tonight. The second TCI I borrowed from an '86 VR that is being parted out. I ordered the Czech TCI last week and DHL delivered it this morning so will try it this evening after work. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted August 4, 2011 Share #10 Posted August 4, 2011 I ordered the Czech TCI last week and DHL delivered it this morning so will try it this evening after work. Craig The Ignitech TCI will require the same checks as I posted above. This is due to it using same inputs as the stock TCI. PM me an email address and I will send you a IGN file for the ignitech that is much better than what they supply. Als, with the Ignitech TCI, do not upload a program to it while motor is running. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted August 4, 2011 PM sent. I appreciate the help this thing has been down for a couple weeks now. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankd Posted August 5, 2011 Share #12 Posted August 5, 2011 Dingy, Doesn't he have to change the pickup wiring connections on the new Czech module wiring? Frank D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share #13 Posted August 5, 2011 I think I have the problem figured out. Gary hit it on his first response. And I did not recognize the clues in Jeff's response. Tach did not move and no gas in cylinders. Last night I put the new Ignitech TCI on and went thru the entire starting system checking resistance and voltages, every thing was good until I got to the coils. Resistance was good on primary and secondary. Was getting 12.5VDC with ignition on. Hit the starter button and the voltage dropped to 11.3VDC. Not good. Pulled a plug and grounded to case, still no spark. That is when it hit me. The plug was bone dry not damp like it should be if gas was getting to the cylinder. I also did not hear a puff of air like I should have. Put my finger over the hole and hit the button, no compression release. Crank not turning means to voltage generated to fire the plugs. This means the starter does not have enough umph to crank the motor. Even tho the starter checks good resistance and turns under power on the bench does not mean it is good enough to do the job. The noise I hear is the starter straining not the engine turning over. I guess the gas I had smelled must have be residual from the last time it did actually try and turn over. Once I get the NEW starter in and the Ignitech TCI programmed I should be good again. I guess I was hung up on what I had already done and not what was actually happening. Thanks for the help. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted August 5, 2011 Share #14 Posted August 5, 2011 Craig, Thought of something to check on your Ignitech adapter harness. Problem is I am at work, and don't have the info I need here. I just got another Ignitech unit last week and the pick up coil & common ground wires were flipped. The module will not work with this error. I will send you pins to check around 5 this afternoon. This is not related though to the bike not cranking. One way to check starter is to take battery jumper cable and jump from positive post on battery to the positive stud on starter. MAKE SURE BIKE IS IN NEUTRAL OR ON CENTER STAND. If starter, battery & ground path is good, this should crank motor. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Road Hawg Posted August 5, 2011 Share #15 Posted August 5, 2011 I think I have the problem figured out. Gary hit it on his first response. And I did not recognize the clues in Jeff's response. Tach did not move and no gas in cylinders. Last night I put the new Ignitech TCI on and went thru the entire starting system checking resistance and voltages, every thing was good until I got to the coils. Resistance was good on primary and secondary. Was getting 12.5VDC with ignition on. Hit the starter button and the voltage dropped to 11.3VDC. Not good. Pulled a plug and grounded to case, still no spark. That is when it hit me. The plug was bone dry not damp like it should be if gas was getting to the cylinder. I also did not hear a puff of air like I should have. Put my finger over the hole and hit the button, no compression release. Crank not turning means to voltage generated to fire the plugs. This means the starter does not have enough umph to crank the motor. Even tho the starter checks good resistance and turns under power on the bench does not mean it is good enough to do the job. The noise I hear is the starter straining not the engine turning over. I guess the gas I had smelled must have be residual from the last time it did actually try and turn over. Once I get the NEW starter in and the Ignitech TCI programmed I should be good again. I guess I was hung up on what I had already done and not what was actually happening. Thanks for the help. Craig Did you possibly have the left side cover off and replaced with sealant only (no gasket)? The gasket works as a spacer and without it the starter gears bind up and the engine won't turn sometimes resulting in melted starter! Don't ask how I know this Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capn eddie Posted August 5, 2011 Share #16 Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) I think I have the problem figured out. Gary hit it on his first response. And I did not recognize the clues in Jeff's response. Tach did not move and no gas in cylinders. Last night I put the new Ignitech TCI on and went thru the entire starting system checking resistance and voltages, every thing was good until I got to the coils. Resistance was good on primary and secondary. Was getting 12.5VDC with ignition on. Hit the starter button and the voltage dropped to 11.3VDC. Not good. Pulled a plug and grounded to case, still no spark. That is when it hit me. The plug was bone dry not damp like it should be if gas was getting to the cylinder. I also did not hear a puff of air like I should have. Put my finger over the hole and hit the button, no compression release. Crank not turning means to voltage generated to fire the plugs. This means the starter does not have enough umph to crank the motor. Even tho the starter checks good resistance and turns under power on the bench does not mean it is good enough to do the job. The noise I hear is the starter straining not the engine turning over. I guess the gas I had smelled must have be residual from the last time it did actually try and turn over. Once I get the NEW starter in and the Ignitech TCI programmed I should be good again. I guess I was hung up on what I had already done and not what was actually happening. Thanks for the help. Craig If your not getting any compression when you push the starter button and no spark to plugs and no gas to the plugs it could be your starter clutch slipping and not turning over the motor. Like you said crank not turning ,you need to check STARTER CLUTCH before you do anything else. just my thoughts:whistling: IN your first post you say you heard a whining noise that noise is the starter clutch slipping. In post #4 you say this has progressively got worse over time just like a starter clutch going out. Put bike on center stand put bike in gear push starter to see if rear tire moves, if not starter clutch not working, had this problem on my 87VR replaced starter clutch (from DANOs starter clutch upgrade) and have not had a problem since. Edited August 5, 2011 by cap'n eddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capn eddie Posted August 5, 2011 Share #17 Posted August 5, 2011 YOU could try push starting it to see if it will start that way and if it does start it's the starter clutch not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted August 5, 2011 Share #18 Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) Attached is crude wiring diagram of adapter harness for a 83-89 Venture - 85-89 VMax. The two Blue wires have been wrong before, from Ignitech. If you are not sure, ask me, or call me, phone # is in my profile. Gary Edited August 6, 2011 by dingy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted August 5, 2011 I did have the left crank case cover off and had the foresight, for once, to order a new gasket in advance. Installed it and sealant. Good thing to know and will go right in down in the maintenance manual. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted August 5, 2011 My blue wires are reversed from what is shown in the drawing you posted. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share #21 Posted August 5, 2011 Have found some other discrepancies with my plugs and your drawing. On Ignitech end plug: Pin 2 is Yellow/black going to correct pin on 8 pin bike harness end instead of pin 11. Pin 11 is red/black going to correct 8 pin bike harness end instead of pin 2. In other words it looks like on the Ignitech end plug these wire are reversed. same with pins 9 and 20. Yellow on pin 9 and brown on pin 20 but correct on 6 pin bike harness end. My unit is marked 4CH v80 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturous Randy Posted August 6, 2011 Share #22 Posted August 6, 2011 Craig, Is the crankshaft actually rotating when you hit the start button? RandyA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted August 6, 2011 Share #23 Posted August 6, 2011 Have found some other discrepancies with my plugs and your drawing. On Ignitech end plug: Pin 2 is Yellow/black going to correct pin on 8 pin bike harness end instead of pin 11. Pin 11 is red/black going to correct 8 pin bike harness end instead of pin 2. In other words it looks like on the Ignitech end plug these wire are reversed. same with pins 9 and 20. Yellow on pin 9 and brown on pin 20 but correct on 6 pin bike harness end. My unit is marked 4CH v80 Craig Can you email me a picture of both ends of harness? gary(at)dinges.com remove (at) and put in @ (this keeps spam crawlers from finding my email address, they don't see the wrong format) Or call me, I'm home now for rest of night. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigs87 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share #24 Posted August 6, 2011 Crank is/was not turning. I tried Cap'n's push start suggestion and the engine turned over. Hit the starter button after trying to push start it and it caught and tried to start. Looks like the starter clutch is the real culprit. I swapped the blue wires on the Ignitech to match Gary's drawing and it wants to start. Just wondering if the other two sets of wires are not also reversed. Right now I have the battery charging. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankd Posted August 6, 2011 Share #25 Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) Dano here on this site makes a great kit to fix the starter clutch permanently. I did mine last fall and the only problem with this project is getting the rotor off the crankshaft. If you want to use OEM parts to fix it, they are available, but cost about 3/4 the price of Dano's kit and with the OEM parts the problem will probably re-occur. Frank D. Edited August 6, 2011 by frankd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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