hipshot Posted October 14, 2007 Share #26 Posted October 14, 2007 hey, KIT!!!!!!!!! man ,you're gonna have to get up real early in the morning, to stump denden! i sometimes think he is a "yamaha spy/engineer," planted here to learn what happens to thousands of bikes, without having to do "an official yamaha survey"!!! lol just jt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KitCarson Posted October 14, 2007 Share #27 Posted October 14, 2007 hey, KIT!!!!!!!!! man ,you're gonna have to get up real early in the morning, to stump denden! i sometimes think he is a "yamaha spy/engineer," planted here to learn what happens to thousands of bikes, without having to do "an official yamaha survey"!!! lol just jt well I am pretty sure he is right. We ourselves checked the clutch basket for wobble......on the side play note......but did not check it for out of round........would only take a few thousands of an inch to mesh tighter in one spot and create the chirp. Out of round in combination with the pressure of the clutch boss and pressure plate, as it turns makes perfect senses to me, that is the why of the chirp......we all knew it was there.....knew it could be solved, sometimes with a lot of work and hassle, I wanted to know the reason for it......the why. I plan to turn an arbor with a back shoulder on it for the basket to rest on.........make a friction washer out of leather for the front of it.....use a couple big washers to hold it secure on the threaded arbor.......chuck it into the lathe and turn it about 200 rpm.......rig up a piece of spring steel wire just touching the edge of the basket......can check a few places like that.......the other areas like the actual gear teeth......will have to check carefully using the lathe only as a calibrated center and use a part of the lathe as a standard and measure each gear carefully with an exterior micrometer....I do feel this is the answer.........we have approached every other angle...... I have noticed as has another member........the chirp can tell you when to shift kinda.........yesterday we went for a nice long ride.......never ever used fifth gear......we were on secondary roads just piddling along at 55 to 65 mph.....riding two up.........kept the rpms up..........chirp would fade out at 55 to 60. Could never quite get rid of it in third gear......so the harmonics part of it is also as I had figured out a part of it........spin the basket at a certain rpm and it smooths out. Well enough of all this......is lots of fun......but I think with what I have learned and what Dendon has said...........we know the why. I at the moment suspect this I basket is a blueprinted version of the regular basket. Has not different cut gears.........one can sure hear a lot of stories......cannot find any info on it.....or any photos.........want to do this, but shop is not going to let me............see you all.....take care Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted October 15, 2007 Share #28 Posted October 15, 2007 Okay......bet you can't find 4 !! :rotf::stirthepot:. Well I didn't really want to mention it but it has something to do with speed, course some may call that a similarity rather than a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KitCarson Posted October 15, 2007 Share #29 Posted October 15, 2007 Well I didn't really want to mention it but it has something to do with speed, course some may call that a similarity rather than a difference. Yes it has a lot to do with speed........a 1st Gen does not seem to have this problem......the RPM cannot obtain enough speed to cause any harmonics:stirthepot::rotf:!. But seriously.......sitting here early this morning......have came up with an idea for a test jig........will take two sections of plywood....laminate them together.......router out a trough for the oil pump rear gear.........install a dowel through the middle point........install a pin about an inch from the outside edge of the basket teeth........this way I can use interior calipers to measure the lands and grooves......the high and lows of each gear tooth.....just doing this as I am extremely curious about things. will be accurate enough to tell if it is out of round enough to be a consideration. Take Care........Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted October 15, 2007 Share #30 Posted October 15, 2007 Yes it has a lot to do with speed........a 1st Gen does not seem to have this problem......the RPM cannot obtain enough speed to cause any harmonics:stirthepot::rotf:!. But seriously.......sitting here early this morning......have came up with an idea for a test jig........will take two sections of plywood....laminate them together.......router out a trough for the oil pump rear gear.........install a dowel through the middle point........install a pin about an inch from the outside edge of the basket teeth........this way I can use interior calipers to measure the lands and grooves......the high and lows of each gear tooth.....just doing this as I am extremely curious about things. will be accurate enough to tell if it is out of round enough to be a consideration. Take Care........Kit I'm no machinist, but I would maybe just run a bolt though the hole in the center (put in a bushing if necessary) and then clamp the bolt into the lathe. Course that maybe not accurate enough, but then how accurate is a piece of plywood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod Posted October 15, 2007 Share #31 Posted October 15, 2007 Not to muddy the waters but here is what I noticed after I changed the clutch on my MM RSV. I had some whine at certain RPM's but not too bad. I just changed the clutch and it is noticeably less now. I thought it may have been the extra lube on reassembly but it has stayed the same for about 500 mi. Why the change, I have no idea. Another thing I have brought up before is disconnecting the headset made a big drop in the sound of the whine so I keep the intercom level as low as I can. My bike has an "I" basket and a friend had a 99 RSV that was louder than mine; after he had the basket changed on his; but it was less than before the change. I also got better gas milage than he did for no apperant reason. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KitCarson Posted October 15, 2007 Share #32 Posted October 15, 2007 I'm no machinist, but I would maybe just run a bolt though the hole in the center (put in a bushing if necessary) and then clamp the bolt into the lathe. Course that maybe not accurate enough, but then how accurate is a piece of plywood? Well it is all quite hard to do, trying to makeshift stuff.......and did change my mind. This morning in the shop, I took an old arbor for turning round stock and turned that to the exact diameter of the opening in the basket left a shoulder on it.........put some large washers on the front and run the nut down on the arbor. I drilled a hole in the cutting chisel brace and drove a split pin in that hole....this gave me a steady reference point to measure from. I used interior calipers to measure the high and low of the teeth. By adjusting the calipers between the high side of the teeth and my pin used as a reference point and going all around the basket with just a touch of friction .....I was able to determine all the teeth are the same........do it again for the low valleys in the gear and the are the same too.......so almost all things have been eliminated........the clutch basket as it so appears is pretty well machined.......so we have only one thing left.........it has to be the actual clearance or mesh of the main drive gear or clutch basket if you will to the primary drive gear. This is a far as I can take this......I have no clue as to if the mesh tolerance should be closer or further. I would need a motor sitting on the bench to keep messing around with this.......So Kit is going to shut up.......and say it has to be the tolerance between the two main gears.........somehow it is setting up this harmonics noise..........I will let the Yamaha shop worry about it when they get the I basket in.......will try to snoop and ask more questions........but hey I have hit an impasse'. Done all a plumber who knows how to turn a wrench or two can do. Has been quite fun though!! I am sure based on what I have figured out and what Denden has said....it has to be the tolerance between the two........so evidently the I basket is cut to a different tolerance.........has to be......only thing left. I assume this is why the gear chirp goes away at a certain rpm.......and why the 20w50 oil has helped.......and why some have told me they can tell when it is time to change the oil as the noise gets more prevalent as the oil change time comes up.........next report when I get the I basket....if it works great...if not.....my roadhouse slip ons should be here by then........if they are not loud enough I will drill the baffles out of them too!! Plus winter is on the way........back to a full helmet......that will muffle it even more.......will try to find out about this so called 1800 bike too.......if it is a rumor or fact, the regional rep is supposed to be on site...when they work on my bike. Hey just teasing you about your 1st gen.........I have rode one......they are nice bikes.........but like I just saw on this site.......the inflatable jacket......I do not go that fast anymore anyway.......if I ever get up to 80 it is for a short time to pass a car.......mainly when I am riding, I am never in a hurry.......but still do not think a 1st Gen can catch a 2nd gen Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted October 15, 2007 Share #33 Posted October 15, 2007 I don't own a 2nd gen, mine is an 89, so I do not have the problem. However, I have been reading with interest all the posts on this issue for about 2 years now. I had a thought last week concerning this issue. In view of the High Anti Wear qualities of modern oils, ( of any brand of oil ) And in view, of the much higher quality of metals used in the construction of gears and engine parts over the last 20 years or so. (( the anti wear qualities )) Could it be possible ?? That the 2nd gen parts ( whatever part is involved in the noise ) are simple Not Being Broken In Properly ??? ( worn in, mated, or however you want to state it ) IF SO: then my thought is, why not try running some plane old 20 or 30 Wgt. " Break In " oil. ( non detergent, no additive ,plain Jane OIL ) ( or, lawn mower engine oil ) whatever you want to call it. Run this stuff for about 200 to 500 miles, and keep the speed below 50 MPH, just like your Dad and Grandpa used to tell you to do when you bought you New " Ford or Chevy " In other words, do a --- " break in," --- just like Grandpa did on his New 51 Chevy !!! OR, 37 Harley if you like. Just a thought, Can't hurt anything, for just 500 miles at 50 MPH. Anybody open to give it a try ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brainfart Posted October 15, 2007 Share #34 Posted October 15, 2007 I'm the 8th person in our riding group with a RSV - I did the 600 break-in - keeping it below 50mph, acceleration / decleration - basically stop-n-go riding. only a couple bursts to almost full-open. it doesn't make a difference - break-in isn't the issue. my buddy had the "I" basket installed - MUCH quieter at 70mph. but i think we found the real answer -- those molded earplugs!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted October 15, 2007 Share #35 Posted October 15, 2007 Well it is all quite hard to do, trying to makeshift stuff.......and did change my mind. This morning in the shop, I took an old arbor for turning round stock and turned that to the exact diameter of the opening in the basket left a shoulder on it.........put some large washers on the front and run the nut down on the arbor. I drilled a hole in the cutting chisel brace and drove a split pin in that hole....this gave me a steady reference point to measure from. I used interior calipers to measure the high and low of the teeth. By adjusting the calipers between the high side of the teeth and my pin used as a reference point and going all around the basket with just a touch of friction .....I was able to determine all the teeth are the same........do it again for the low valleys in the gear and the are the same too.......so almost all things have been eliminated........the clutch basket as it so appears is pretty well machined.......so we have only one thing left.........it has to be the actual clearance or mesh of the main drive gear or clutch basket if you will to the primary drive gear. This is a far as I can take this......I have no clue as to if the mesh tolerance should be closer or further. I would need a motor sitting on the bench to keep messing around with this.......So Kit is going to shut up.......and say it has to be the tolerance between the two main gears.........somehow it is setting up this harmonics noise..........I will let the Yamaha shop worry about it when they get the I basket in.......will try to snoop and ask more questions........but hey I have hit an impasse'. Done all a plumber who knows how to turn a wrench or two can do. Has been quite fun though!! I am sure based on what I have figured out and what Denden has said....it has to be the tolerance between the two........so evidently the I basket is cut to a different tolerance.........has to be......only thing left. I assume this is why the gear chirp goes away at a certain rpm.......and why the 20w50 oil has helped.......and why some have told me they can tell when it is time to change the oil as the noise gets more prevalent as the oil change time comes up.........next report when I get the I basket....if it works great...if not.....my roadhouse slip ons should be here by then........if they are not loud enough I will drill the baffles out of them too!! Plus winter is on the way........back to a full helmet......that will muffle it even more.......will try to find out about this so called 1800 bike too.......if it is a rumor or fact, the regional rep is supposed to be on site...when they work on my bike. Hey just teasing you about your 1st gen.........I have rode one......they are nice bikes.........but like I just saw on this site.......the inflatable jacket......I do not go that fast anymore anyway.......if I ever get up to 80 it is for a short time to pass a car.......mainly when I am riding, I am never in a hurry.......but still do not think a 1st Gen can catch a 2nd gen Kit Ha ha, you're absolutely right about the 1st gen thing, 'cept the 1st gen would have to slow down, get behind the 2nd and then it would catch up and most likely pass, except the 2nd genner would not know for sure, hard to distinguish a blurr. :rotf: If someone has a loose clutch basket, I would be the willing reciepient of one, I'll even pay the postage. It would be nice to have one to play with and to see how I could 'butcher' it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KitCarson Posted October 15, 2007 Share #36 Posted October 15, 2007 Ha ha, you're absolutely right about the 1st gen thing, 'cept the 1st gen would have to slow down, get behind the 2nd and then it would catch up and most likely pass, except the 2nd genner would not know for sure, hard to distinguish a blurr. :rotf: If someone has a loose clutch basket, I would be the willing reciepient of one, I'll even pay the postage. It would be nice to have one to play with and to see how I could 'butcher' it up. You can have this one in a few years......may have two in a year or two...no do not think it will take that long.....but my bike is in line waiting for an I basket.......whether they will let me have the one out of the bike, which would make two.....I do not know . But when it is all done.....you can have this one or that one........both the same........it was not all that much....was like $140 dollars. Basket is not that expensive........it is the labor that goes with it...have seen a post where it cost someone between 4 and 5 hundred....but that was labor and all. You will be welcome to it...Kite Squid.....bet I said that wrong, is waiting on my windshield.....may be a long wait. Yes I will send it to you, just do not hold your breath. Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted October 15, 2007 Share #37 Posted October 15, 2007 Ha ha, you're absolutely right about the 1st gen thing, 'cept the 1st gen would have to slow down, get behind the 2nd and then it would catch up and most likely pass, except the 2nd genner would not know for sure, hard to distinguish a blurr. :rotf: If someone has a loose clutch basket, I would be the willing reciepient of one, I'll even pay the postage. It would be nice to have one to play with and to see how I could 'butcher' it up. And a ha ha ha to you too - you got the blur right but reversed what actually happens. I too am on the danged waiting list for the "I" basket - if I can, I'll try to salvage the old and send it to you. Cheers Eugene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted October 16, 2007 Share #38 Posted October 16, 2007 And a ha ha ha to you too - you got the blur right but reversed what actually happens. I too am on the danged waiting list for the "I" basket - if I can, I'll try to salvage the old and send it to you. Cheers Eugene I don't think they will leave the dismounted Basket at your Hands ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KitCarson Posted October 16, 2007 Share #39 Posted October 16, 2007 I don't think they will leave the dismounted Basket at your Hands ...There are a few reasons a shop does not want a customer or rider in the work area....one is insurance concerns.......another is if they get someone in there like myself.....I would be a pain in the a....., but I sense even if I sat on a chair over in the corner and was quiet I would not be allowed into the work area. They are pretty close mouthed about this repair....I have asked all kinds of questions......even from an ambush direction lol!! The only hints I get when someone who knows a lot about this gives me, is the gears on the I basket are cut different..........so maybe so......maybe not.........I have waded through a lot of mushrooms trying to find out . But hey......I have a allen wrench already cut down to fit the two bolts on the lower cover.........will be a simple matter to open it up and find out one winter weekend. So meanwhile as much as I am capable of I am just trying to behave till mine goes into the shop. Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KitCarson Posted October 17, 2007 Share #40 Posted October 17, 2007 Sitting here at home....day is done and the phone rings again....geez.....then my ears perk up....it is the regional Yamaha Rep! I am sure he has had a busy day too, but he has taken the time to call me and let me know I am not forgotten, My I- basket will be at the Yamaha Shop next week sometime, then we can schedule a time to have the work done. So I am more and more impressed with the service and courtesy of the Yamaha Shop in Sumter and the South Eastern Rep. . Hey I had been hearing a rumor about a 1800 Venture........well that is what it is, it is a rumor. The reasoning he gave me is .....hey we have a tried and time tested motor in the Venture......it carries a 5 year warranty........we do have a 1900 or 18 something......it is air cooled and has a one year warranty. So as far as this fellow knows......no their are no plans for any new venture developments. I figured it was a rumor.........but had to ask.. They are working on solving Crickets situation......now if I could just get that windshield. Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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