videoarizona Posted July 29, 2016 Share #1 Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) Yeppers. Think I have a leak in right front. 05 RSV. Noticed a small puddle on floor that was oil...under the right center of front end. Subsequent investigation discovered oil film on the tire side of the lower fork tube. Looks like it "might" be leaking from in between the inner and outer lower tubes. To me, that's a seal leak?? Bike has been sitting for 2 weeks on side stand...no leaks before. So in looking through 7 pages of posts regarding fork seal leaks and front end issues, I've come to the conclusion that 2nd Gen fork oil leaks are not common. In fact, there was only a couple of mentions...that's it. And one of the mentions said he was going to the dealer for repair. I'm in that same box...thinking maybe the dealer might have a better handle on it than I. Since I've never, repeat never, done anything with forks. I did lower the front end...and that doesn't bother me...but going beyond that on any scoot...nada...never done it. Other thoughts: Have 58,500 miles on 05. Have never had any feeling the front end was soft, bad or not functioning properly. In fact, 9 months ago, I put a 14 hour day on the scoot which included over 100 miles of State Rt 191, the Devils Highway with some serious 10 mph hairpin turns throughout. I keep air pressure at 38-40 in front tire with zero air in shocks. Most of my riding has been 1 up...but even 2 up...there were no indications of handling problems (other than normal slow speed stuff). So...ideas and thoughts are appreciated. Oh. Picture of a little thing I found on Internet. For pilots...but I like them for myself. Sure keeps me from trying to ride off with Carbon One's lift adapter under the bike! I'm sure most of you can understand what I mean by that... "Golden Years" my butt! Edited July 29, 2016 by videoarizona add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted July 29, 2016 Share #2 Posted July 29, 2016 Ummmm, first thing that comes to mind is some nasty pitting or abrasions on the fork tubes. I guess that would depend on how much riding you do out in the desert especially with wind, a sandstorm could act like sandblasting... Love the picture!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 1, 2016 Author Share #3 Posted August 1, 2016 Well, guess no one has ever worked on 2nd Gen forks. Are the forks that good? IF so, then guess I'm going to be the guinea piglet to try this. @bongobobny, The first thing I will do is get the forks down to where I can at least try and clean them...see if that is the problem. Next week....on the schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted August 1, 2016 Share #4 Posted August 1, 2016 Right there with my buddy Bongo - raise her up - get full extention on the tubes and check em closely for pitting!! Never owned or worked one Vaz so I dont get around in the 2nd Gen tech area much or,, maybe a more appropriate excuse = I gotta get out more = sorry I missed this earlier my friend.. Yep,, sure sounds like the ol leaky fork seal routine to me brother.. Like I said - never worked on a second gen so,,, pay no attention to the guy behind the curtain if this sounds wayyyyyyyy out there BUT = 1. If your scoot is manual fill on the fork air you might try pressing the shrader on the fork air and seeing if its built up pressure from those extreme Arizona temps. 2. Before you rip the forks apart you might try just taking a piece of 35 mm film and slipping it between the seal and the tube and then sliding it upward at an angle in an attempt to clean trapped dirt out from the seal edges.. I know they make a cheap little tool for this nowadays (bet you could find one at a MX Bike shop in your area) but I always used the old school, back yard 35mm film method and it works pretty dog gone good. 3. No idea if the 2nd Gens have rebound valving on the top of fork tube or if they have inverted forks under those guards - if they are standard forks like on our 1st Gens and ya gotta split em down to put in new seals,, it can probably all be done with the tubes left in the clamps (IMHO = makes it easier cause it sorta works like having the tubes in a vice if you know what I mean. 4. If you do have to split em - not a bad idea to drop in new bushings. 5. dont forget to double check your front brake pads for fork fluid contamination - if contaminated they are shot.. that a coyote came along when you were parked up there in those gorgeous AZ mountains and thought the front wheel of your scoot was a fire hydrant and your front forks are fine!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted August 1, 2016 Share #5 Posted August 1, 2016 PS - LOVE THE PIC!!! I would have to duc tape it on my finger though cause I would probably miss it sitting way down there on the jack You da man Vaz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 14, 2016 Author Share #6 Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) Stated taking scoot apart today in preparation for checking out why my right front fork is leaking. These things are not supposed to leak on an 05 RSV! As @VanRiver says....it's warm in the garage. However, thankfully I'm way south of Phoenix area so I'm cooler. Not much, but cooler non-the-less. So... Got the seat, tank and outer fairing off....removed 2 nuts and 2 bolts holding inner fairing to frame...halfway through removing handlebar risers....I noted I goofed. I didn't move bike under the eye hook in the ceiling I put there to hold the bars up and the front fairing forward and away from the bike. Sigh. Note to self...stop being "stoopid"! So deciding I needed another pair of hands...I stopped. Went over to the 89 VR and thought now would be a good time to try out the brace VR sent me. Nope. Didn't fit. What the...? Put the old and new together and voila! My factory brace is smaller than the Superbrace types. That explains why neither brace would fit... By about 1/16 on each end.... OK...what's going on here? Anyone have an 89 VR like mine? @Prairiehammer, any way you can check your VIN database and see if another member has a scoot built around same period? Maybe they have the same issue. Maybe @cowpuc has a valid thought that I might have slightly newer forks that were designed (touch thicker at bottom) for the 1990 versions that had the fork covers put on? Edited August 14, 2016 by videoarizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted August 14, 2016 Share #7 Posted August 14, 2016 Hmmmm, I see the fork brace issue! Odd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted August 14, 2016 Share #8 Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) Anyone have an 89 VR like mine? @Prairiehammer, any way you can check your VIN database and see if another member has a scoot built around same period? Maybe they have the same issue. @KIC has an '89. @frankd has an '89. @Golf&Venture has an '89. When I put Condor's brace on my 1990 (with the factory gaiters [yes, @cowpuc, that is how it is spelled]) I found that his brace did not fit between the forks. I trimmed the gaiters and loosened all the pinch bolts AND the axle bolt and was able to install the Condor brace. Jack mentioned that you might have to do those things to fit it, even to a pre-gaiter (gaiters were introduced in 1990) model. I've seen where at least one person used a drum sander to remove some material that allowed for a good fit. Yamaha changed the lower/outer fork legs in 1988 and again in 1990 (to accommodate the gaiters). An external groove near the top of the lower legs is an indication of 1990 or later, as well as the yellowish silver paint (Yamaha called it "light gray metallic" or "light yellowish gray metallic") applied to the 1990 lower forks. Edited August 14, 2016 by Prairiehammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 14, 2016 Author Share #9 Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) Thanks, Kevin, So if I do loosen the axle and pinch bolts, install the brace, I shouldn't be pinching anything in the forks out of alignment then when I squeeze the brace inside the forks? Hopefully the 3 gentlemen you listed with an 89 can chime in if they have installed a brace. Edited August 14, 2016 by videoarizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 14, 2016 Author Share #10 Posted August 14, 2016 (edited) My very long lunch break done, (watched Olympics). Decided to get productive again....So to continue: Confirmed the garage door opener was bolted to the rafters (never know with some home builders!) so I went ahead and tied on to that and was able to raise the handlebars up and forward enough that it pulled the inner fairing away from the forks. I think I now have enough room to get to the forks and get them out. So my plan (remember I've never done this to a scoot) is to remove the front wheel, take off the fender, take off the upper brace and upper covers, loosen the pinch bolts on the lower brace and drop the forks out from under the front end. Take the forks to the bench, remove the upper cap, pour out the oil (measure) in both forks.....pry up the dust seal...and then run some 35mm film around the oil seals and hope to get them clean. Put new oil in and re-assemble. I hope I don't have to take the forks apart to get to the oil seal...it "SHOULD" be just under the dust seal...right? The bike was handling nicely so I don't think I have any spring issues... Am I missing anything here? Edited August 14, 2016 by videoarizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfVenture Posted August 14, 2016 Share #11 Posted August 14, 2016 I bought a brace from Condor and do not recall having any issue of installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jamsie Posted August 14, 2016 Share #12 Posted August 14, 2016 Iirc @cowpuc once mentioned a strip of 35mm film as a perfect tool to clean the seals, wonder where you can get some now its all digital plenty of vids to watch for if you do have to replace seals, but once you have the forks on the bench, its a 10 min job for each leg why this guy thought using a jack to compress the forks is beyond me , just clamp fork in a vice with protective cloth around it and use the stantion like a slide hammer to get seal out, making sure you removed the clip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jamsie Posted August 14, 2016 Share #13 Posted August 14, 2016 can only post 1 vid at a time now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jamsie Posted August 14, 2016 Share #14 Posted August 14, 2016 This guy has some good tips as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted August 15, 2016 Share #15 Posted August 15, 2016 Oppssss, thats right,, ol Cowpuc forgot that not everyone on the web has stacks of 35mm negative film laying around from picture taking of years go by.. Ya know,, now that I think about it,, I think I still have mini 8 movie reels and a projector somewhere - a Polaroid instamatic and probably a few 110 camera's with partially used film still in em Hey Vaz,, thinking this thru very carefully - if that 89 were mine and it was not plagued with the usual 40 mph wobble when ya let go of the bars or had some other ailment I was trying to over come I wouldnt mess with it.. On the 2nd Gen,,,, the whole intent of cleaning those fork seals with the 35mm film or using a modern day fork seal cleaning tool is to do so prior to having to take the forks all apart.. Normally it only involves putting the bike on a stand so the front end is raised up, pull the dust covers, wipe the seal clean and slip the film around the tube at an angle between the seal and the tube and work any debris out of it.. Having never owned a 2nd Gen - I had no idea we were talking about having to tear it down just to clean the seals brother ... Looking at what you got going on there I gotta tell ya,, aint no way - aint no how I would go to all that work and not drop new seals in it - ya got 3/4's of the work already done... PLUS - if I were gonna drop new seals in it - I would put new bushings in it too.. Just an opinion brother but thats what I would do!!! ,,,,, that'll teach ya to ask around here if your missin something Hey Vaz,, I LOVE the looks of those handle bars - sort of a Mini Ape look to em.. I also LOVE the way the grips angle inwardly - do those seem to give you the bar length you need to be able to lean back against Pat or your back rest and find your not stretching to control your scoot? One of the things I have ALWAYS loved about my 1st Gens = the bars!! Fold em back and in = PERFECT!! What are those bars David? and Prairiehammer = gators or gaiters, I still think those things make a bike look like a late 70's MX bike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIC Posted August 15, 2016 Share #16 Posted August 15, 2016 Really Dave..??? You forget about me so soon ?? I have an 89 and the 87. 89 has a upgraded brace and the 87 is stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share #17 Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Really Dave..??? You forget about me so soon ?? I have an 89 and the 87. 89 has a upgraded brace and the 87 is stock. Hi Bill, Nope, but didn't know if your 89 had the brace on it and if it fit easily... Wait a minute...didn't we try to put one on my scoot at your house??? Or was that your other VR? Edited August 15, 2016 by videoarizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share #18 Posted August 15, 2016 Oppssss, thats right,, ol Cowpuc forgot that not everyone on the web has stacks of 35mm negative film laying around from picture taking of years go by.. Ya know,, now that I think about it,, I think I still have mini 8 movie reels and a projector somewhere - a Polaroid instamatic and probably a few 110 camera's with partially used film still in em Hey Vaz,, thinking this thru very carefully - if that 89 were mine and it was not plagued with the usual 40 mph wobble when ya let go of the bars or had some other ailment I was trying to over come I wouldnt mess with it.. On the 2nd Gen,,,, the whole intent of cleaning those fork seals with the 35mm film or using a modern day fork seal cleaning tool is to do so prior to having to take the forks all apart.. Normally it only involves putting the bike on a stand so the front end is raised up, pull the dust covers, wipe the seal clean and slip the film around the tube at an angle between the seal and the tube and work any debris out of it.. Having never owned a 2nd Gen - I had no idea we were talking about having to tear it down just to clean the seals brother ... Looking at what you got going on there I gotta tell ya,, aint no way - aint no how I would go to all that work and not drop new seals in it - ya got 3/4's of the work already done... PLUS - if I were gonna drop new seals in it - I would put new bushings in it too.. Just an opinion brother but thats what I would do!!! ,,,,, that'll teach ya to ask around here if your missin something Hey Vaz,, I LOVE the looks of those handle bars - sort of a Mini Ape look to em.. I also LOVE the way the grips angle inwardly - do those seem to give you the bar length you need to be able to lean back against Pat or your back rest and find your not stretching to control your scoot? One of the things I have ALWAYS loved about my 1st Gens = the bars!! Fold em back and in = PERFECT!! What are those bars David? and Prairiehammer = gators or gaiters, I still think those things make a bike look like a late 70's MX bike 1: I think I just may leave well enough alone on the 89. It handles nicely... 2: Yeppers, ya gots to take the RSV apart to work on the forks. No way around it...I'm thinking about new seals and bushings...but that may be a problem. If I have to wait for the dealer or anyone else to get the seals for me....I'll probably forget what goes where!! Thankfully, I do have some 35mm film floating around somewhere if I do decide to just clean, change oil and put back together. BTW, it really isn't hard to take the bike down this far. The hardest part was unbolting the bars with the risers on and trying to keep them up and in line with one hand so I could take out the 4 bolts with the other. Other than that...it's a piece of cake to take the fairing apart... 3: Stock bars on the RSV. They do reach out and back a bit...but not enough for me to lean back and rest. Just a touch to short. And I have the Baron 1 1/2 inch risers that help a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share #19 Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Latest: Got tire and fender off ok...brakes off ok. So far...I've been down this road when I lowered the front forks... Now I've been trying to get the upper triple tree off....or as Yamaha calls it, the upper fork bridge. I took off the steering stem nut and washer, and loosened the two upper fork bridge clamp bolts on both sides. At this point, when I lowered the front end last year, all I needed to do is lift off the upper fork bridge...exposing the steering stem bearings and the top shock tube covering...which lifted right up as there is nothing holding them down but the upper triple tree(upper fork bridge). From there, I could loosen the lower fork bridge bolts on both sides and move the shocks up/down or out! Guess what, that upper fork bridge is not moving.... There are two hex head bolts near the front of the upper fork bridge that hold the inner fairing/headlight frame to the front end, but I sure as heck don't remember taking those off as they are buried! Besides, it appears they are bolted to a frame member underneath and inside of the triple tree....and the front edge of the triple tree goes over the mounting. I don't think they are a factor for the above reasons... I tried lifting the assembly (inner fairing and the upper triple tree together...but that didn't accomplish anything useful. Maybe tomorrow I can have my buddy over and we can try together....but when I lowered the front end...I did it by myself in only a few hours...did not have this issue....So... Ideas needed again! Thanks! Edited August 15, 2016 by videoarizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) BTW....here is what a 2nd Gen looks like at this point....The steering stem washer and nut are off...so disregard that in 1st pic. Really easy peasy to get this far...just a few screws/bolts/nuts to account for is the only concern... Edited August 15, 2016 by videoarizona add picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share #21 Posted August 16, 2016 Latest: Got tire and fender off ok...brakes off ok. So far...I've been down this road when I lowered the front forks... Now I've been trying to get the upper triple tree off....or as Yamaha calls it, the upper fork bridge. I took off the steering stem nut and washer, and loosened the two upper fork bridge clamp bolts on both sides. At this point, when I lowered the front end last year, all I needed to do is lift off the upper fork bridge...exposing the steering stem bearings and the top shock tube covering...which lifted right up as there is nothing holding them down but the upper triple tree(upper fork bridge). From there, I could loosen the lower fork bridge bolts on both sides and move the shocks up/down or out! Guess what, that upper fork bridge is not moving.... There are two hex head bolts near the front of the upper fork bridge that hold the inner fairing/headlight frame to the front end, but I sure as heck don't remember taking those off as they are buried! Besides, it appears they are bolted to a frame member underneath and inside of the triple tree....and the front edge of the triple tree goes over the mounting. I don't think they are a factor for the above reasons... I tried lifting the assembly (inner fairing and the upper triple tree together...but that didn't accomplish anything useful. Maybe tomorrow I can have my buddy over and we can try together....but when I lowered the front end...I did it by myself in only a few hours...did not have this issue....So... Ideas needed again! Thanks! OK got that figured out. It was those two bolts. Sure don't remember taking them off...and they were on there. I'm surprised I had that much strength last year ! Now I can't get the dust seal out....or whatever is first on the tube with the spring...shop manual is getting grease prints all over....that's good right? Picture of seal, then right fork tube, offending frame member with finger pointing at it...two bolts one on each side to release the upper triple tree....last, overall view of the front end at this point in time. I think I'll call the dealer and see if anyone wants to put new seals in my forks. Not sure I can finish this without damaging something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted August 16, 2016 Share #22 Posted August 16, 2016 I'm just minorly concerned with the condition of your uppers David. In the picture I do see a couple of dings and pits in them. New seals may not completely fix your issue but without closer inspection it's hard to tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share #23 Posted August 16, 2016 Hi @bongobobny, Thanks for your eyes! Just checked again to make sure....no dings or pits...just dust and dirt. The right side shock picture does show that I have dirt in under the dust seal, when I pump the shock, dust and dirt comes up. So new parts ordered for both. Dealer wants $165 for labor to re-do both shocks. Parts are under $100 for both...so the shocks are going in next week for a do-over. I feel this is a worthwhile investment as they guarantee their work. And after 50K miles, it's a good thing to do for the scoot! So now I'm writing things down, putting bolts and nuts back in their holes or marking them...since it will be over a week before I get back to work on bike. And taking pictures! Lift is braced in case of failure. Done about all I can to give myself a decent chance to put her all together again ! Now for lunch and a beer! To be continued: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jamsie Posted August 16, 2016 Share #24 Posted August 16, 2016 Now you have the front wheel out , remove 1 of the brake disc covers and see weather you prefer with or without Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share #25 Posted August 16, 2016 Now you have the front wheel out , remove 1 of the brake disc covers and see weather you prefer with or without Did that last year when I lowered the front end. Like them the way they are. For now....Grins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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