Won't crank...see symptoms below

[jasonm.]

You are correct..."shorts" cause big amps. The bike did start but only with BOTH batteries together. I had the throttle cables unhooked. But it idled @600 cold for half a minute. So the engine spins once started

[dingy]

You are correct..."shorts" cause big amps. The bike did start but only with BOTH batteries together. I had the throttle cables unhooked. But it idled @600 cold for half a minute. So the engine spins once started

 

Starter ground path fix.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46890

Gary

[jasonm.]

I also own a Yamaha Vision. They have issues with OIL in the starter because the starter sits LOW. Not likely but.. Maybe I just have some oil in the starter... and the brushes are wet. The simplest would be finding the starter lead damaged somewhere siting against the frame. I can see a long painful weekend happening.

[Trader]

If you have to pull the starter anyway I would replace it with a 2nd gen 4 brush starter.

 

Then you don't have to worry about the grounding mod and it will eliminate the "slow crank when hot" issue so common with the 1st gens

[jasonm.]

20+ years with this bike. yes the 4 brush starter is better. But I never had a slow crank issue till the battery was weak or the starter was loaded with dirt from the brushes. I likely cannot afford a new starter. I suspect they are very expensive new...price of copper and all. Looking for a used one. What was the 1st year the 4 brush was used ???? So my spare 2 brush, or a me doing a rebuild is likely .

Edited October 16, 2013 by jasonm.

[Snaggletooth]

Gotta say this. Rebuilding Is fine.

 

But..... do not use the cheap brushes like you find as aftermarket items. Most are very low quality carbon and do not last. They wear down very quickly.

 

Don't ask how i know. It cost me a starter. The OEM brushes are pricey. About $25.00 each..

 

 

If you watch the parts listings you can usually find a used 2nd Gen starter for what a set of OEM brushes would cost ya. I've got a used four brush in my '84. I think i paid $35.00 for it..

 

From my Droid wherever I may happen to be at any given moment.

[jasonm.]

I got them from Dennis Kirk many years ago....I think the package said made in Japan...NOT China . So I hoped/thought they were good. If I look long enough I could find the original package. now 2 hours later... OH, I FOUND THE PACKAGE from the replacement brushes. the "made in" is blank. I peeled off the Dennis Kirk sticker to find "Rick's Enterprises" under it. Also no "Made in" listed. My OEM brushes still in the small box are only approx. 1/2 worn. What were the symptoms of YOUR cheap brushes causing failure ???

Edited October 16, 2013 by jasonm.

[Snaggletooth]

Worn down in about a year to nothing shorted out the armature. Fried it. The armature had been dressed and recut when the $10.00 set of ebay brushes were installed.

 

The 26 year old OEM brushes were only worn 1/2 way down.

 

My opinion. But not much of a life span for brushes.

 

From my Droid wherever I may happen to be at any given moment.

[jasonm.]

I have about 15-20k on these brushes. Did you have massive power draw symptom like me ??? HERE'S another odd thing. Looking at the OEM service manual. The overall length of the brushes...NEW 12.5mm...limit 5.5mm. I measured the old ones from 6+ years back. They measure 12mm...@70k. Is this possible ? Somehow I think the way they measure may be misprinted.

Edited October 16, 2013 by jasonm.

[Snaggletooth]

I had 43k when i replaced mine during the rebuild. They were probably less than half worn. I never measured them.

 

At the time i was fighting the old hot start problem. Rebuild, brush ground mod, 4 GA cables, DEKA AGM battery. The works. Yeah. Kinda a heavy draw before all that.

The brushes in the used 4 brush unit looked like new. No idea how much it had been used.

 

So from from what I've seen OEM brushes are the answer. But if yours are that good just dress the armature and clean the grooves between contacts. Clean helps a lot.

 

From my Droid wherever I may happen to be at any given moment.

[jasonm.]

before you 4 brush starter.................so...how did you know when your starter was FRIED ?

[frankd]

Jason,

 

Brushes 1/2 the length of new will be fine.

 

Did you find any obvious problems when you opened up the starter? Excessive DC motor current is caused by 3 things.

 

1) Excessive load---not your problem because your motor runs normally.

 

2) Shorted motor field or armature windings. Smell the starter. If it's burnt and been hot you may smell burnt windings.

 

3) Worn bearings. This allows the armature to rub against the field windings, causing a lot of drag. You may see scuff marks.

 

 

When my 2 pole starter was cranking slow, I could smell the burnt windings as soon as I started to open it up. I just replaced it with a 4 pole starter because they are better. It's been about 5 years since I replaced it, but it wasn't that expensive. But if the starter on your parts bike is still good, I'd just use that one.

 

Frank

[Snaggletooth]

before you 4 brush starter.................so...how did you know when your starter was FRIED ?

 

Well the smoke was the first hint. Then all the black parts in the starter kinda gave it way.

 

From my Droid wherever I may happen to be at any given moment.

[jasonm.]

Jason,

 

Brushes 1/2 the length of new will be fine.

 

Did you find any obvious problems when you opened up the starter? Excessive DC motor current is caused by 3 things.

 

1) Excessive load---not your problem because your motor runs normally.

 

2) Shorted motor field or armature windings. Smell the starter. If it's burnt and been hot you may smell burnt windings.

 

3) Worn bearings. This allows the armature to rub against the field windings, causing a lot of drag. You may see scuff marks.

 

 

When my 2 pole starter was cranking slow, I could smell the burnt windings as soon as I started to open it up. I just replaced it with a 4 pole starter because they are better. It's been about 5 years since I replaced it, but it wasn't that expensive. But if the starter on your parts bike is still good, I'd just use that one.

 

Frank

This time,I have not opened my starter up YET. I was just saying earlier that I replaced the brushes 6+ years ago @ approx.70k, because it was slow even cold. I found it really dirty inside. I cleaned everything up to "spec." properly greased the bearing and bushing. I was careful Undercutting the segments(grooves) , etc. So this is a real surprise. When I open it up.. I will let you all know what I find. At least I have not smelled obvious smoke or seen it. Or maybe I did but it might have been the battery poles arcing attaching the booster cables... FYI- in 5 years the price of copper has more than doubled, and same for the price of starters and stators. So a new one might be $400. WHAT was the first year for the 4 brush unit ? So I can look for a used one...if I need to.

Edited October 17, 2013 by jasonm.

[Venturous Randy]

I got a 4 brush from Pinwall for about $50 or less a year or so ago on ebay and it looked like new. I was the only bidder.

RandyA

[jasonm.]

So now I know they are not too expensive on Ebay. Yes, I have dealt with Pinwall. But was/is it ALL 2nd Gens that use the 4 brush since '98 ? or was it earlier ? or later they started ?

[Prairiehammer]

Actually, the First Gen Ventures had four brush starters starting in 1991, but one never knows with bikes that old whether someone may have substituted a two brush during a swap or even some may have had their engines swapped with an earlier year.

 

So, it is safest to just go for a Second Gen starter, because all years of Second Gen Ventures are four brush.

[jasonm.]

Now I have the starter out and.....YOU WON'T BELIEVE THIS. Is looks like I skipped a step when testing. I failed to Test with a different battery. Which I think George suggested and maybe others here. I am pretty sure I said a tried to start, when connecting a car battery w/ bike battery. I think I said somewhere here I test w/car battery directly connected with no results.... I think. As it turns out I may have skipped this step. This morning, I pulled the starter out of both my runner and my parts bike. The bench tested both. BOTH had the same issue when bench testing with my Venture battery. WHAT...? So I took a lighter duty smaller 14Ah bike battery vs. the Venture battery. And it spun the starter like ziiiiiiiiiiinnnng. Have you ever heard of a battery only shorting inside when you attempt to start ????????? Because it sits on my bench now with 12.9v on the meter...dang it....! ALSO open up both starters. My original with aftermarket brushes looks great...the armature is spotless shinny copper where the brushes rest and the brushes are 12.5mm overall and it's amazingly clean.. The spare starter w/ original brushes does not look as nice in the "contact area"...actually looking silver...dirty. now waiting for the o-rings for starter and thermostat. Right now my head is spinning...I read back and I said...I Did test connected directly @solenoid w/car battery...? Really... jeeezzz....Oh and the car battery is good. Because it spins the starter easily on the bench. vs...the Venture battery not at all. Jeeez...it was the simplest solution and I did not see it. Anyone think I'm wrong? Or maybe the starter caused the battery to go bad. FYI_ nothing is black/burned inside it or dirty. I did a search and HBAndrew had what seemed to be the identical issue. Wonder how he made out ?

Edited October 20, 2013 by jasonm.

[Flyinfool]

It is a common failure mode for a battery to read normal voltage with just the meter and no other load, but then the voltage just is not there under load.

 

Now with the starter on the bench, there is still not much of a load. Best is to have the battery load tested.

 

Yup there were a couple of posts that would have saved you from pulling the starter.

[jasonm.]

now I know the battery is bad. Heck , it won't do a bench test on ANY starter. I suspect under heavy load it is actually "opening". Thus no real voltage. Dang it. Wish I caught this earlier. But my starter testing with starter on the bike...really has me confused. So now I will put the starters in the bike one at a time and see what happens when applying power AGAIN directly to the starter...using the car battery. Oh , all lead ends have been soldered properly ...including ground. The car battery has been charged every few months since its removal. It was never bad...just old. But, "with age comes death". Heck if my car battery is also weak...I will be jumping off the roof. But I guess it's time to buy another bike battery. Any recommendations ? my last one was Westco

[frankd]

AGM batteries have higher cranking current available, less current drain during storage, longer life, and you never have to add water. They're a little more expensive, but I think they're worth it because they definitely help hot starts . Skydoc sells them and they are also available in other places. Mine is 3 years old and still acting like it's brand new. Actually both bikes have AGM batteries in them, but my brother hasn't ridden the 83 very much. They are both Deka batteries.

[jasonm.]

my battery was/is a sealed battery. Really not sure if it's AGM. They are very good. I may just go to Advance Auto down the street and hope they have the AGM for me in stock. No matter what I will get an AGM.

[Flyinfool]

As long as you are going to Advance Auto, charge up you old car battery and have them load test it for free, then you will know if it is worth storing some more. Advance Auto will give you a $5 gift card for each of the old batteries. Check your local yellow pages to see if you have a battery manufacturer in your area, they pay the best prices for old junk batteries. I got $12 for my old MC battery and $15 for an old car battery.

[jasonm.]

I compared going to Advance and my local one man shop. Advance has EXT18L AGM in stock at a good price with 1 yr. warranty replacement. But my local guy can get me a fresh AGM Yuasa for $100. The type that is activated by the customer adding the acid. Thus it has not been sitting on the shelf sulfating. Just have to decide in the next couple of days. Anyone use an AGM Yuasa or Advance EXT battery ? As for the "grounding strap" write up. I understand and see that is showing a Vmax starter. Which is painted inside and out. The black paint can make a good ground an issue. The brush plate is sandwiched in pretty tight. Making a good ground on the unpainted Aluminum body. As for the Venture starter having a grounding issue ...? I have never known it to happen. BUT I see others have done it and it's an improvement

Edited October 28, 2013 by jasonm.

[jasonm.]

I did the starter grounding upgrade and a new Yuasa AGM battery. I have had this bike since 1989... Seems to spin a bit faster than I ever remember. Whether it's the battery or the grounding mod. Time will tell. Also one thing to do is to lightly sand the area where the mounting bolts contact/hold the starter to the engine. Basically get the paint off. This will also help. Cheers