Need some Brake info 1200cc Venture

[Marcarl]

Hi all ventureriders ! I change all my brakes liquid but no changing, nothing better ! Is someone changing his brake system or only calipers on venture 1200 and with what parts !!! I search plans to adapt other calipers ! Thanks at all !

Bikers Friendships at all ! barry-only-n7

If you are only using the rear brake for stopping you'll be very dissappointed in the reaction, unless you really push hard. When you grab the front brake the action should be instant and very responsive. When you grab the front and stomp on the rear you will need a seat belt to hold you on. In my opinion these brakes work great, but old rubber lines give a lot, and the more pressure you apply the more they will give. Go to stainless braided lines and you'll wonder what happened, you'll be amazed.

With motorcycles as with cars, you really don't want a rear brake lock up, so the rear is not designed for that, and that's the nice thing about our linked brakes. But the rear pedal needs to focus on the rear brake, so although it is related to the front it does not do what the front brake does, not even close. If it did you would not have the control that you need for the rear brake for the front would begin to brake too soon and too hard.

The right brake handle is for the front brake, and the front brake only and so can control that issue very nicely. When practising a panic stop: jam on the rear and squeeze on the front, quickly and progressively. You'll need to pay all you attention on the front brake as this is where the real business is being annouced. By jamming on the rear and then 'forgetting' about it, the applied pressure to that braking system will remain somewhat constant and so will give you better control over your 'panic' situation. Practise this a number of times and you should get a real good feel for your brakes. If you can't get good control then something isn't right in the system.

Last year I was travelling on a 4 lane hyway, doing about 110 km in the passing lane, when all of a sudden the car in front of me jammed on the brakes to avoid a stopped van turning left. (Everybody was legal, but not all were awake). My wife was on the back, the trailer was loaded, so all told we were about 1650 lbs or 750 kg. When I squeezed the cheeks and put Scamper to a stop, all performed as expected, no sliding, no lockups, and my wife was 'in the drivers seat' when we were finished. My system is all stock, except for stainless lines all the way, so I'd say that it's not the stock system that's a problem.

[Snaggletooth]

Hey MikeC.

 

When I bought my '84 back a couple of years ago I had a grand time getting my brakes working right after 9 years of being in storage by the PO. What I found was the PO had opened up the proportioning valve for whatever reason and then failed to reassemable it in the proper order. Created all kinds of havoc and headaches for me.

 

With much help and advice from several boards I found info on the correct way to install the goofed up order of things. And belive me, there are several ways to put that valve back together. LOL!

 

But during the process of trial and error and waiting for more info to come to me I had reassmbled the valve without any of the inner workings. (cups, spring, retainers and spool) The valve is designed to divide the fluid pressure at 30% to the rear and 70% to the left front. Without the inner workings it should have been in theroy, about equal to both ends of the system. I rode it this way for quite a while and found the rear brake did tend to lock up sooner than it did after the valve was correctly reassembled.

 

After getting the valve back to spec I found that the rear felt weaker and the bike did tend to want to wag its tail in a hard braking situation. (parking lot experiment, on wet pavement)

 

I've been riding the last 6,000 miles with the proportioning valve as it was designed, but has considered removing the inner working over the winter to get the rear brake back to what I had before. I had given thought to delinking the brakes and going to the old school, front is front and back is back but tossed the idea after much conversation with folks who had done the that.

 

The pic here is the parts that were removed during the learning process.

 

Just remember, if ya take it apart, pay damn close attention to the order it come out in. There is only ONE way it will work right and ten ways to put the parts back in. LOL! Maybe 12? I lost count but I got really good at pulling master cylinders.

 

Mike

[barry-only-n7]

Hi Snaggletooth, Marcarl, Squid...................:happy34::happy34:

Snaggletooth, I think like you that:

I had given thought to delinking the brakes and going to the old school, front is front and back is back ! But Someone say that it is'nt a good idea and it's very risky !!!

Well, I think that in the firt time the best is change my pads (for EBC or Carbone Loraine in HH quality) and brake lines and if it is'nt like I want, I transform all and put R1 caliper on rear weel and 6 pot GSXR on front weel ! I like good brakes and curently it's good and also dangerous !

Thanks for all !

And if someone make a real change on his brake system, I'm interested for pics or plans !!!

Hey Squid, I'm buying a small english dictionnary but I don't know if it's better !!!

Amitiés Motardes ! (Bikers Friendships) barry-only-n7

[Snaggletooth]

So what's wrong with his english? I understand him better than some of the guys I work with. LOL!

[barry-only-n7]

Hi snaggletooth ! I don't think that I've a good english control ! But, like I said to Squid, I've a dream.......ride a bike (i don't know when !) in your countries in the USA ! Then I learn every days a little bit more and talk with you on ventureriders is a good thing to learn !!! Tell me a thing, is it possible to rent a Venture (or other bike like that) to ride for holidays with my wife in USA ?

Bikers Friendships ! barry-only-n7

[Snaggletooth]

Well you are doing pretty well and everybody here speaks the univeral language.

 

Motorcycle!

 

So when the time comes I'm sure that someone on the board will be able to hook you up with a dealer that rents bikes. These guys seem like they can set up about anything.

 

Most the time they organize eating but then again you have to ride to get to the food.

 

Later

 

Mike

[deorto]

i'm planning to switch out my brake lines--

who many lines will i need

and where to buy--thanks guys

[rhncue]

i'm planning to switch out my brake lines--

who many lines will i need

and where to buy--thanks guys

 

Rick Hafferkamf at: http://buckeyeperformance.com has the kits made up of the proper length and size of lines.

 

Dick

[Rocket]

Rick Hafferkamf at: http://buckeyeperformance.com has the kits made up of the proper length and size of lines.

 

Dick

 

These kits include the clutch lines & middle gear cover gasket too.....

I have this installed on my 83 & will be installing it on Friesman1's 85, as well.

 

[GaryZ]

Hey 1st genners,

 

We have a member on the site that is having a problem. He's not real good with his english and he and I have been having corrispondence. He has a 1200 Venture and like many of you, is hating the braking system. Now I know on the 1300's that they can be upgraded with R1 calipers and better rotors. I have never dug deep enough into the 1200's to know what some of you fellas have done to upgrade the brakes on these particular models.

 

Could some of you share any knowledge on this thread here and help steer this fella in the right direction, Thanks a bunch

 

Everyone wants to make their stuff better and VR owners are typical. The standard brakes on the 1st Gen VR are very good for most applications. Updating to MkII or R1 will only produce a marginal improvement over stock brakes that are healthy.

 

I have been riding sport bikes for the last 5 years and using only the front brake on my 1st Gen VR is scary-bad. One rotor simply cannot stop a 750+lb motorcycle with rider and/or passenger. The rear brake is a little better, but not much. When used together the linked VR brakes are very effective. After rebuilding his stock brakes (remember to change out ALL the fluid), suggest that he try using the front and back together.

[Squeeze]

... The standard brakes on the 1st Gen VR are very good for most applications. Updating to MkII or R1 will only produce a marginal improvement over stock brakes that are healthy...

 

I'm sorry to say, but you have no Idea what's the Difference between well maintained MKI Brakes and R1 Brakes. Saying it's only as Night and Day, just doesn't cut it.

[GaryZ]

I'm sorry to say, but you have no Idea what's the Difference between well maintained MKI Brakes and R1 Brakes. Saying it's only as Night and Day, just doesn't cut it.

 

Let me try to understand your comment . . . You feel the difference between my sport bike brakes and healthy 1st gen brakes is more than night and day? I am not sorry to say that I disagree, and I regularly ride my bikes back-to-back. Most riders will feel little real difference upgrading to R1 calipers unless they are canyon carving or towing a trailer. The R1 calipers should offer less fade under heavy braking. Upgrading to the R1 master cylinder could offer a very different initial feel. I guess many will interpret the different "feel" as more or better braking power.

[Squeeze]

Let me try to understand your comment . . . You feel the difference between my sport bike brakes and healthy 1st gen brakes is more than night and day? I am not sorry to say that I disagree, and I regularly ride my bikes back-to-back. Most riders will feel little real difference upgrading to R1 calipers unless they are canyon carving or towing a trailer. The R1 calipers should offer less fade under heavy braking. Upgrading to the R1 master cylinder could offer a very different initial feel. I guess many will interpret the different "feel" as more or better braking power.

 

Now, isn't less fade under heavy Braking with heavy Bikes like the Ventures are, a good Thing in first Place ?

 

But, you referred in your upper Posting to a MKI Brake and that's why i posted my Comment.

 

A MK I Brake, even when well maintained or even with fresh Rotors and Pads will never be as good as a MK II or R1 Brake. That specifically means less stopping Distance and a Lot less heat related Fade of Braking Power. Better Feeling with R1 Calipers, when combined with a fitting 14 mm Master Cylinder is only the Icing on the Cake.

 

 

 

When you ask why's that ....

 

 

Go measure the Diameters of the Rotors and just look at the Area of Friction Zones involved. There are some Rules in the World which can't be bend from the human Race. Deceleration is basically converting Work into Heat. At the Moment, the Rules of this simple System can't be bent by Mankind.

[GaryZ]

Now, isn't less fade under heavy Braking with heavy Bikes like the Ventures are, a good Thing in first Place ?

 

But, you referred in your upper Posting to a MKI Brake and that's why i posted my Comment.

 

A MK I Brake, even when well maintained or even with fresh Rotors and Pads will never be as good as a MK II or R1 Brake. That specifically means less stopping Distance and a Lot less heat related Fade of Braking Power. Better Feeling with R1 Calipers, when combined with a fitting 14 mm Master Cylinder is only the Icing on the Cake.

 

 

 

When you ask why's that ....

 

 

Go measure the Diameters of the Rotors and just look at the Area of Friction Zones involved. There are some Rules in the World which can't be bend from the human Race. Deceleration is basically converting Work into Heat. At the Moment, the Rules of this simple System can't be bent by Mankind.

 

I am trying to answer a posted question and you only want to be right. Updated brakes are better, when the rider needs or wants better brakes. However, better is relative. How bad do you need to improve your 1st Gen brakes? $500 better? $1000 better?

 

Are you having problems stopping? Fix your stock brakes.

Are you having problems with brake fade? Upgrade.

Do you want better, just because you want better? Upgrade.

 

As others have stated, the 1st Gen brakes are not bad. In fact, they do a pretty good job stopping a 750lb motorcycle. Please do not confuse others by making them think the factory brakes have something wrong with them.

[greg_in_london]

Sorry - I agree with Squeeze - the standard Venture MK1 brakes are awful.

 

Please remember, though, that we are both European (as is our Parisian friend [will you be going to LeMans ?]) and from what I can tell from various posters and magazine write-ups (as I've never crossed the Atlantic, although it looks pretty stark from the West Coast of Ireland) there is quite a difference in terms of expectations in braking.

 

Apparently, for example, Harleys are considered to have brakes in the states whereas many here consider them laughable. Or at least, that you need to change your riding style to allow for them - which would not be considered acceptable on anything else.

 

There are other threads on rider training in the states recommending that people learn to use their brakes better. This is incorporated into basic rider training in all European countries.

 

The proportioning valve and metering valve both reduce the braking available. This makes your brakes less effective, but means any fool can do it without falling off (to paraphrase Yamaha). To my mind it means you can reduce speed slowly, but not brake heavily in a short distance when you need to.

 

If you feel your brakes are adequate for your use, stick with them. If you find them dangerous and are more used to conventional brakes, then unlinking them, replacing the front master cylinder, removing the valve on the back brake and SS hoses will give a massive improvement at limited cost. Changing forks and callipers etc may be better, but will cost more.

 

I absolutely HAD to upgrade mine because of the extra weight I carry, but I started the process (SS hoses) while the bike was still solo. I was riding in and around London, though, so probably needed better brakes than someone riding Route 66.

[Squeeze]

I am trying to answer a posted question and you only want to be right. Updated brakes are better, when the rider needs or wants better brakes. However, better is relative. How bad do you need to improve your 1st Gen brakes? $500 better? $1000 better?

 

Are you having problems stopping? Fix your stock brakes.

Are you having problems with brake fade? Upgrade.

Do you want better, just because you want better? Upgrade.

 

As others have stated, the 1st Gen brakes are not bad. In fact, they do a pretty good job stopping a 750lb motorcycle. Please do not confuse others by making them think the factory brakes have something wrong with them.

 

I think you don't understand what i'm saying, or you chose to misunderstand what i'm saying.

 

Please read again what i said.

 

If you want to tell me/us a MKI Brake is more than any Rider will ever need. Ok, i got your Point. The MKI Brake was outdated two Years after the Bike came on the Market and the Stopping Power the MKI Brakes provides wasn't adequate anymore. Things have changed since .... (at the 1Gen's a Bit early in 1986)

 

How bad i need to improve my Brakes on a MKII ?? Depends on the Cost ....

 

I spent half of the Money of complete Rebuild of the stock MKII Calipers and i saved about ten Hours working Time on rebuilding the Calipers .... You don't believe that ?

 

Ask a Bit around, here are Members that actually made the Upgrade and know the Numbers way better than me. I even know of a Member that actually made Money out of the Upgrade. On a MKI this is not true, it may cost some Money because you need more Parts to make it happen, but the Brakes ARE better.

 

How do i know that and stand behind my Words ??

 

I've ridden many Bikes, some of them were 1985 to 1992 Vmaxxes which have exactly the same Brakes on the as the MKI have. I tell you, it's just scaring. I've ridden a Friends FJ1100 with 140 hp and the same weak Brakes and they scared me even more.

 

How did your personal Evaluation Procedure go ?

[GaryZ]

I just realized that Squeeze is in Europe (thanks greg). IMHO we are saying the same thing about brakes, however, convincing him is another matter.

[jasonm.]

FYI-I do not believe the R1 calipers fit the 1200 Venture forks. The mounting points are different. The poor brake issue in France is likely the typical air bubble where the hose passes bye the steering neck. The 1300's have a bleeder to fix this. My memory says the 1200's did not.

Edited February 13, 2009 by jasonm.

[Rocket]

FYI-I do not believe the R1 rotors fit the 1200 Venture forks. The mounting points are different. The poor brake issue in France is likely the typical air bubble where the hose passes bye the steering neck. The 1300's have a bleeder to fix this. My memory says the 1200's did not.

 

Correct on the mounting points, the lower forks would need to be changed, over to 1st gen Mk2, as well as changing the rotors & calipers. Some may also change, the rear brake setup as well, including the mount.

 

Could be a air bubble at the steering neck or more likely the flex lines need to be changed (bulging under pressure). Remember the recommended sevice life, of the OEM flex lines is 4 years & the Mk1's are over twenty years old. The SS Braided lines is a big improvement, for increasing brake pressure to the calipers, regardless of caliper type / size.

 

The Buckeye SS Braided lines, adds a bleeder at the steering neck for the Mk1's, which was not part of the Mk1 design & added in for the Mk2.

 

[painterman67]

dont know much about the 1200 but maybe you guys should give muffinman a pm. Doesn't he ride a mk1?

 

David

[painterman67]

Hi snaggletooth ! I don't think that I've a good english control ! But, like I said to Squid, I've a dream.......ride a bike (i don't know when !) in your countries in the USA ! Then I learn every days a little bit more and talk with you on ventureriders is a good thing to learn !!! Tell me a thing, is it possible to rent a Venture (or other bike like that) to ride for holidays with my wife in USA ?

Bikers Friendships ! barry-only-n7

 

 

 

Bary-only-n7,

 

Dont worry about the english. You seem to me to have a grasp on the language that some in this nationhaven't achieved yet. I work with guys in the painting buiseness every day that cant speak a word of english. And if you get over here look me up . If youo get on my sid eof the states we''ll get together and have a ride.

 

 

Good luck with the brakes.

David

[Squeeze]

FYI-I do not believe the R1 rotors fit the 1200 Venture forks. The mounting points are different. The poor brake issue in France is likely the typical air bubble where the hose passes bye the steering neck. The 1300's have a bleeder to fix this. My memory says the 1200's did not.

 

You're right. The R1 Rotors are "floated" 298mm Diameter, the MKII is solid 282mm and the MKI are solid 267mm.

 

When upgrading a MKI to the MKII or R1 Brakes, you need the lower Fork Legs, Calipers (100mm Mounting Distance) and 282mm Rotors.

 

 

The R1 Rotors fit the 2nd Gen Bike, though.

 

The Reason why i wrote "floated for the R1 Rotors is this:

 

The "floated" stock Yamaha Rotors are made out of two Pieces and held together by a Sort of Rivets which look like Floaters. But these Rivets don't allow the outer Ring to move in any Direction whereas at a real floating or semi-floating Disk, the Floaters allow the outer Ring to move from left to right in a Range of around 1/10 ". The Semi-floated Rotors have a Diaphragm Style Spring which only shuts down the Rattling Noise full floating Rotors produce by Design. That's a convenience Thing and does nothing to the actual Function of "Floating". The stock Rotors are done when worn out, with real floated Discs you can replace the worn outer Rings and if needed the Floaters and get out cheaper.

 

The Idea of full floating Discs is this.

 

When you run a fixed(solid) Rotor between the two Brake Pads, there's always some Loss in Performance due to Misalignment and Fabrication Tolerances. The Fact that the Rotor expands during heating in a non specific Direction under braking doesn't help either.

 

When you run a moving, read somewhat tumbling Rotor through the Pads, the Rotor will adjust itself exactly in between the Pads with nearly no Force needed. When the Rotor expands because of the Heat produced, the Adjustment is continuing Process that goes back and forth as needed. With floated Rotors, you gain around 2 to 5 Percent braking Power and Longevity, depending on how good or bad the Parts are mechanically aligned and how the move under braking. It's not a academic Value, it's real Gain.

[jasonm.]

note: I CHANGED MY PREVIOUS POSTING. I MENT CALIPERS FROM AN R1 WILL NOT FIT A 1200. tHE ROTORS ARE 282 mm on a 1300. I think the same for a 1200. The R1 rotors are 296mm and very thin. I know the bolt pattern 2001-2003 is same as 1st gens. If I am correct Rotor adaptation is not simple due to diameter difference as you state.

Edited February 13, 2009 by jasonm.