Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Share #1 Posted May 13, 2009 Ok all you electrical genius types. I am somewhat stumped here. I know how to test the stator using the AC voltage test and it seems to be fine. Is there a way to test the Regulator? I have an 84 VR. Is there a way to retrofit a MKII regulator? The plug has more wires in it than the 84. When I parked the bike for the winter it was charging fine. Over the winter I added a couple of relays (for horn and highway lights). A chrome bumper converted to LEDs and a 12v receptacle. So I'm wondering if I did something wrong but was very carefull with these installations. I soldered and heat shrank every joint etc. Is there a way to test for excessive drain while running? I had a "rebuilt Stator" that I got off eBay a couple of years ago and installed it. That didn't solve the problem. But it may not be a good one either. Any ideas?? Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted May 13, 2009 Share #2 Posted May 13, 2009 How much DC Voltage do you measure at the Battery Posts ? How much AC Voltage came up at the Stator Wires. Yes, a MKII REg/Rectf. can be fitted to a MKI Bike. How come, you don't suspect the Battery as weak ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 13, 2009 Share #3 Posted May 13, 2009 1. Assume Nothing-- First place to check it the Plugs going " TO " the Regulator, from the Stator. And the Plug, " From " the Regulator, going to Main fuse and battery. Also, the Two black wires From that plug that go to Ground. ( Inspect all pin, male and female for BURN Damage, Make sure all the male and female pins, have a Tight Fit. Make sure you TUG on all the wires, make sure the Crimps of the studs, are tight on the wire strands. -- IF you find any damage on these two Plugs, IT MUST BE REPAIRED!!! Check the Neg Bat cable where it connects to the Engine block, Clean, and Resolder. I would then Remove all fuses feeding power to ALL the Accessories, then Run Engine, and Monitor the DC Charging level at the Battery + Stud. Should be above 13.5 Volts. If Lower, then 13.5, consider that the Battery " MIGHT " have developed an Internal High load. Is the Battery a Lead Acid, stock type battery?? Is it OVER, 3 years old, if so then I would suspect the battery is failing. ( To test, Remove battery, Charge it on bench, at a 2 Amp or higher rate for 6 to 10 hours, Top off water level, then Let it sit, for 24 to 48 hours and recheck the voltage. If the 12.2 V charged level, slowly drops, ( ON THE BENCH ) over 48 hours, then consider the battery has failed. --- NO point in tearing into the Bike circuits, untill you are POSITIVE, that you have a GOOD Battery --- Always, Suspect, the Battery itself ( Even if only a year old or so) I have had 2 Yuasa, Sealed lead acid batteries FAIL, in less then 15 months. If battery is good, then start Re-Installing the fuse's for accessories one at a time, if you see a voltage Drop, then suspect that circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted May 13, 2009 Thanks guys: The battery is brand new Odyssey. I had a two year old yuasa (not sure how to spell that) that was fine but I changed to the Odyssey to try to help with the starting issue when hot. I took out the 3 pin connector and soldered those joints. I will have a closer look at the other connection and check the ground. I have not checked where the battery grounds to the bike. The other plug from the rectifier looks good and clean. I added dilectric grease to every connection I could find. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted May 13, 2009 Share #5 Posted May 13, 2009 The Question about the Voltages still stands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted May 13, 2009 Ok here we go.. At 2000 rpm DC voltage at the battery 12.7 AC Voltage 12.2 12.2 11.9 Does this help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOO Posted May 13, 2009 Share #7 Posted May 13, 2009 Here is a chart I have kept around for checking charging system when needed. Might give it a try, http://www.gadgetjq.com/fault-finding.htm Boo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted May 13, 2009 At 3000 rpm I'm now getting 13V DC at the battery. I tried taking everything off the battery except the main fuse and starter. I also disconnected all fuses except ignition. At 3000 rpm I was getting 13.1 or 13.2 and that did not change except it dropped to 13.0 when I put the headlight fuse back in. I added fuses one at a time and rechecked. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Posted May 13, 2009 Share #9 Posted May 13, 2009 I have followed this thread including the advice. I am often amazed by how much help comes from others. For me, electrical problems can be ovwhelming. I recently reported a likely electrical problem - my kill switch recently popped on a few times after running for a while on cruise control. Still not sure how to deal with the problem and what causes it although I have beeen told that cruise and kill switch wiring are linked. Anyway Wayne, good luck! Evan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 13, 2009 Share #10 Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Have you " Charged " that Odyessy battery ?? Correct charging proceedure is to charge it at a 6 AMP or Higher Rate, for 4 to 10 hours depending on the state of charge. Proceedure to determine State of charge of AGM type Battery. Read " NO LOAD " Voltage. 100 percent charge 12.8 Volts. 75 percent charge about 12.6 Volts 50 percent charge, about 12.4 Volts. Or, pull out the Instruction sheet, that came with your battery, Read up on the Charging proceedure's. Are you aware that the Odyessy charging proceedure IS NOT the same as a Lead Acid battery ? I'm suspecting that all you need to do is Charge that battery. The voltage is reading LOW, because the bike's system is in the process of charging the battery, and there is a drop across the battery itself. After fully charging, things might change. If you have been playing with a " Trickle Charger " throw it in the trash, and use a Car Battery Charger !! Use the 6 AMP high charge rate, for AGM type batteries. Edited May 13, 2009 by GeorgeS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted May 13, 2009 Share #11 Posted May 13, 2009 But to be honest, i'm less than excited about hose low AC Voltages. But since this whole Bunch of Items is a "System" i'd go to Battery charging as George suggested in first Place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share #12 Posted May 13, 2009 Over the last couple of weeks I have charged the battery up to full charge a few times. When I do that it will hold the charge as long as I want if the bike is turned off. It will last up to 2 hours of riding time. Starts off just fine and starts the bike well but eventually drains to the point that I need to have a push to get the bike started. I read the instructions for the battery and charged it with a Car charger. I also put the old battery back into it just to see if it was a battery issue. I didn't change the battery because the old one had failed. I changed it to try and get the better starting amps when the bike is hot. The old battery is only 2 years old and working fine. It also drains while riding. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 13, 2009 Share #13 Posted May 13, 2009 In that case, Remove Fuses' for All Added, aftermarket accessories. Recharge, and see what happens. ( check voltage ) Then remove all fuses except the Ignition fuse. Check charging voltage. Sounds like one circuit has a High Resistance, and dropping voltage. OR, you might have a BAD Odyessy Battery, I would also, fully charge it, and let it sit for 24 hours, ( dissconnected ) to see if it is holding a charge. A few folks have gotten " bad " Odyessy batteries, I recall about 3 of them being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 13, 2009 Share #14 Posted May 13, 2009 Open the Plug, " From " the Regulator, Measure Resistance, from the Two Black Wires, to Ground at the Net Bat terminal, and several other points on the bike frame, Make sure you read " ZERO " Ohm from the Neg output of Regulator to ALL points on the bike that are supposed to be grounded. Also, read from Neg Terminal, to Many points on the Frame, be sure Zero Ohms. Open up the main 40 Amp fuse holder, make sure the Two Small Screws are tight. And again, be sure to check the two big plugs " To " and " From " the Regulator. But, you might, have a bad regulator--- ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share #15 Posted May 13, 2009 Thank you GeorgeS and Squeeze for your help and patience. I have removed all the fuses except the ignition and replaced one at a time. Voltage stays pretty much the same all the time. It does drop by .2 or .3 V DC when I put the headlight fuse back in but even with all of them out and everything disconnected from the battery except the main fuse and starter the voltage only reads 12.7 at 2000 rpm and 13.1 at 3000 rpm. I really don't believe it is the battery because with a different battery it behaves the same way. I will do the checks on the regulator wires and let you know what I get. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted May 13, 2009 Open the Plug, " From " the Regulator, Measure Resistance, from the Two Black Wires, to Ground at the Net Bat terminal, and several other points on the bike frame, Make sure you read " ZERO " Ohm from the Neg output of Regulator to ALL points on the bike that are supposed to be grounded. Also, read from Neg Terminal, to Many points on the Frame, be sure Zero Ohms. Open up the main 40 Amp fuse holder, make sure the Two Small Screws are tight. And again, be sure to check the two big plugs " To " and " From " the Regulator. But, you might, have a bad regulator--- ?? GeorgeS: Am I measuring the resistance on the regulator side of the plug or the bike side of the plug. On the bike side I get .1 or 0 but on the regulator side with the plug disconnected the reading is quite high on both black wires. Could it be as simple as the regulator not grounding to the frame of the bike? Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 13, 2009 Share #17 Posted May 13, 2009 Just got back from the Gym : The two black wires come from the regulator, go thru the plug, and then up to the ground Stud, buried under the upper left side fairing. ( Its under the Inside panel of the fairing ) ( its hard to get to. has about 5 black wires grounded there ) That is the Ground for the Regulator. Current flow, Neg. to Pos. is from the Reg. to the ground stud thru the battery and back to the regulator thru the two red wires at the plug. Did you open the plug ?? Are the Pins damaged ?? Any sign of Burn Damage ?? Are all 4 male and female pins fitting snuggly together?? With Plug connected, Read Resistance from each side of plug thru all 4 sets of Pins. All should read zero ohms. Also, with plug connected, read from Reg. side of plug, to Neg Battery Terminal, it should show zero ohms, dead short. IF not, suspect the Neg Battery terminals. ( Might need to be resoldered ) ---------------------- Did you open the Large White Plug, going From the Stator, " TO " the Regulator ?? ( It might have been removed by previous owner, and wires spliced together ) Another test to do here. With large White plug connected, Read thru each of 3 sets of contacts, for the Resistance. Make sure you see Zero Ohms thru each set of contacts. Open the plug, inspect for Burn Damage to Pins. !!!! With everything together. Engine Running at 2000 RPM. Find the 3 wire White plastic plug from the Stator. Stick meter leads into each of the 3 wires going thru the plug. Read the AC ((( yes AC Voltage )) on each wire to Ground. You should see some AC voltage, from 5 to 10 volts, AC ( exact voltage not important ) What is important, is "" IF "" the AC voltage on one of the three leads, is substantially Lower then the other two. Then your Stator is bad!! This is a given, and not debatable. Do that AC voltage check, let me know what the three AC voltage readings are. Note: The service manual says, to check stator, take Resistance reading thru the 3 coils of the Stator ( 3 phases 's ) This test WILL NOT !!! tell you if your stator is good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share #18 Posted May 15, 2009 Ok here we go again.. I'm about ready to pull whats left of my hair out... GeorgeS I appreciate your help and anyone else that wants to chime in with some ideas.. I took the bike over to MarCarl's so that in theory 2 heads are better than one. Now both of us are frustrated. AC voltage from each wire to ground reads 9.8 on the three white wires. There is no plug and the wires are soldered to the wires coming from the regulator. We pulled the fairing and checked the ground wire going to the frame on the upper left side. There is only one of the black wires going to that ground. The other black wire goes to the neg terminal on the battery. Tested for resistance through the plug and all is good. Tested each black wire for resistance back to the neg post on battery and get zero. Tested the red wires from the regulator to the pos post on battery and get zero Got two used regulators from BongoBobNy and tried both with no change. When bike is running at 2000 rpm the DC reading at the battery starts at 13.2 when it is cold and drops steadily till it is around 12.7. We noticed that one of the black wires coming from the regulator gets very hot. I took apart the main 40 amp fuse and cleaned it etc. I have disconnected everything that I can see. Are there fuses somewhere else? I had a "rebuilt" stator that I'd purchased from eBay awhile ago and it is now in the bike. Could it be that my original stator is bad AND the so called rebuilt is bad as well? Carl and I have run out of ideas.. HELP!!!! Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 15, 2009 Share #19 Posted May 15, 2009 Ok here we go again.. I'm about ready to pull whats left of my hair out... GeorgeS I appreciate your help and anyone else that wants to chime in with some ideas.. I took the bike over to MarCarl's so that in theory 2 heads are better than one. Now both of us are frustrated. AC voltage from each wire to ground reads 9.8 on the three white wires. There is no plug and the wires are soldered to the wires coming from the regulator. -- ((( Thats good !! No Burnt pins to worry about. 9.8 AC on each of the 3 phases, is VERY GOOD VOLTAGE !!! -- I suspect the Stator has been Replaced with Aftermarket !! ))) --- We pulled the fairing and checked the ground wire going to the frame on the upper left side. There is only one of the black wires going to that ground. The other black wire goes to the neg terminal on the battery. --(( Well the Two black's { #14 wire } " From " the reg output plug, Both go to ground Stud factory wireing on my 89. ---I spliced into them both, and ran an Extra #14 to ground about 10 inches from the Plug )) -- Yes, thats overkill. ( I then ran an EXTRA #14 From Neg Stud, to a bolt on right side of battery ) -- Yes, thats more Overkill Tested for resistance through the plug and all is good. Tested each black wire for resistance back to the neg post on battery and get zero. --- (( Good !! ) --- Tested the red wires from the regulator to the pos post on battery and get zero -- (( Good !! )) --- Got two used regulators from BongoBobNy and tried both with no change. ---(( Hmmm ??? ))--- When bike is running at 2000 rpm the DC reading at the battery starts at 13.2 when it is cold and drops steadily till it is around 12.7. ---------------------------------------------------------- (( Do you have Any Extra Running, or Fog lights Installed ???? (( Do you have Any Other EXTRA aftermarket lights installed ??? (( Do you have Any Other Aftermarket Accessories of any kind installed ??? ---- If so,---- pull the fuse for ---- all ---- aftermarket stuff, and recheck the charging voltage ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ We noticed that one of the black wires coming from the regulator gets very hot. --NOTE: !! Red Flag !! --- ((( NO WIRES SHOULD EVER GET HOT!!! )) -- THIS MEANS THE WIRE IS TO SMALL TO CARRY THE LOAD--SO GETS HOT --- This make me think that one of the black, has a corroded stud, ( crimp ) on one end of the wire. Unless you have allready cleaned them Originally there were 2 blacks going thru the plug, into the Wire harness then to the Stud under the Fairing. Sounds like sombody Rerouted one to the battery Neg. Stud. Is the #14 black PigTail, From the Neg Stud, still there, goes to a ground bolt close to battery ??? OR, it runs across front of battery to the Stud under upper left fairing. ?? -- So , the Black Wire thats getting hot, Resolder the STUDS on Both Ends of that Wire !!!! Also, closely Check where this wire come's OUT of the Reg/ Plug. The wire strands might be comeing loose. They Might have some of the Strands Broken OFF INSIDE of the " Crimp " of the Pins, inside the plug !!!!!!! ( I am suspecting this at this point ) ( or corrosion ) --- I reccomend Removeing ALL the Pins from the Plug, and Resoldering the Wires to the Pins. ((( ALL OF THEM )))) You need a " KEEPER RElease tool " to release the Pin Keepers, to pull out the male and Female pins. ( TOOL, is basicly a very thin, piece of stainless about 1/8 inch wide, slide it in to release the keeper. ) Note: -- 2 blacks and 2 Reds, going thru Reg. plug, Yamaha used this method to double the size of the wire, to Carry the 30 AMP Load. So, there are 8 Pins inside that plug, that could have corroded wire under the " Crimp " IF SO-- You have to REmove the PINS to do a solder Repair. Also, on your Negative Battery Cable, Have you Cleaned, a Resoldered the Heavy Studs on Both ends of that cable !!! REmove from Engine block, and Bat, Dip in Solder Flux, Heat with Torch to Clean Corrosion, then Resolder the stud to the Copper wire strands of the #6 Cable. I took apart the main 40 amp fuse and cleaned it etc. --(( Good )) -- I have disconnected everything that I can see. Are there fuses somewhere else? ( Look, fwd of battery, right of batt. later 2nd gens have a second fuse holder with fuse's for the radio, and CB. , you bike might have that. ) I had a "rebuilt" stator that I'd purchased from eBay awhile ago and it is now in the bike. -- ( that explanes the 9 V AC readings, which are Very Good !! ) -- Could it be that my original stator is bad AND the so called rebuilt is bad as well? Carl and I have run out of ideas.. ------------------------------------------------ ReCap---- ----------- ((( Did you do the Battery Bench Check?---- ie: put on bench and fully charge, and let it sit for 24 to 48 hours , and monitor for INTERNAL voltage drop ?? )) -----Until you do this test, your battery is suspect, even if it was NEW, last week !!! (trust me, I been there on that one ) Idea: ------------- Pull all fuses Except those needed to drive bike. ( Ignition and Signal ) remove all others -- Ride for couple hours, see what happens. At this point, Frankly, I am still suspecting your battery--- Also I'm suspecting a corroded connection, When you check a connection, don't just look at it, Remove the nut/bolt, clean surfaced, and RESOLDER THE CRIMP TO THE WIRE !!! --- be sure to use Rosin/Core Solder !! NO ACID CORE SOLDER!!thats for copper water pipes. OK, -- After All this, If problem Still there, What next ??? I'm about out of Ideas. However, I would get a Spray Can of CRC 2-26, ( blue lable ) And Remove all the Plastic, And SEAT, Head light, and Start Inspecting Every -- " Inch " --- of Every Cable on the Entire Bike. ( looking for wear points !! ) Clean ALL handlebar Switches with CRC 2-26 - -- And open up EVERY Electrical Plug ( nose to tail ) and clean, and Inspect On the suspscion, of a High Resistance Short to Ground, somplace on the bike, that is cause'ing a Drop. HELP!!!! Wayne ------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share #20 Posted May 15, 2009 Thanks GeorgeS for your responses At Carl's we put his battery in my bike to test the battery theory. I have had my battery sit for days and it holds it's charge. Carl's battery in my bike creates the same symptoms. I added a few new accessories over the winter. All of them have been disconnected for this procedure. That was the first thing I thought because everything was working fine before I parked it for the winter. I had already added 2 35 watt highway lights which worked fine all last season. This winter I added a relay for those lights so that I couldn't "forget" to turn them off. I also added a 12 volt receptical (cigarette lighter). A chrome bumper with LED lights and a Wolo horn with another relay. I'm thinking a bad ground from the regulator now (hot wires). Can I add more ground wires like you did or replace existing ground wires? If one is getting hot could it be that the other one isn't working at all so all the load is going through the one that is hot? When I test for resistance on either wire I get zero though. If I splice an extra ground wire would I do that before or after the plug? Anyhow I've got some things to try. Thank you and I'll let you know how I make out. Won't be for a couple of days.. Work (evil word) gets in the way sometimes. :-) Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted May 15, 2009 Share #21 Posted May 15, 2009 I'd try to run a Bypass Wire to the black Wire which gets hot. What about your Starter Clutch ? Probably the Clutch is shot and isn't disengaging as it should and therefore, the Starter is acting as a Generator and screwing up normal electrical Function. This has happened before but not with that weird electrical Problems, afaik. Doesn't mean i can't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6m459 Posted May 15, 2009 Share #22 Posted May 15, 2009 I have a 100% virgin Electrosport stator you could try installing to eliminate the possibility that you have a bad one. My bike passed all the static stator tests but the original one was bad anyway. I bought the electrosport unit but never used it as an OEM one came available. Yours on a approval, buy it if you like it. Hope this helps. Brian H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard765 Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share #23 Posted May 15, 2009 I have a 100% virgin Electrosport stator you could try installing to eliminate the possibility that you have a bad one. My bike passed all the static stator tests but the original one was bad anyway. I bought the electrosport unit but never used it as an OEM one came available. Yours on a approval, buy it if you like it. Hope this helps. Brian H. Brian: That is an amazing offer and I just might take you up on that. I plan on chasing the ground issue on Saturday. If I cannot resolve the problem that way I will take a road trip to Uxbridge. Thank you so much. Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeS Posted May 15, 2009 Share #24 Posted May 15, 2009 Thanks GeorgeS for your responses At Carl's we put his battery in my bike to test the battery theory. I have had my battery sit for days and it holds it's charge. Carl's battery in my bike creates the same symptoms. I added a few new accessories over the winter. All of them have been disconnected for this procedure. That was the first thing I thought because everything was working fine before I parked it for the winter. I had already added 2 35 watt highway lights which worked fine all last season. This winter I added a relay for those lights so that I couldn't "forget" to turn them off. I also added a 12 volt receptical (cigarette lighter). A chrome bumper with LED lights and a Wolo horn with another relay. I'm thinking a bad ground from the regulator now (hot wires). Can I add more ground wires like you did or replace existing ground wires? If one is getting hot could it be that the other one isn't working at all so all the load is going through the one that is hot? When I test for resistance on either wire I get zero though. If I splice an extra ground wire would I do that before or after the plug? ---- ((( After the Plug, Cut wires about 6 in from plug. Splice ( use western union splice, and SOLDER, and Insulate ) into both #14 black wires with two new length of stranded #14 Black wire, then run these to a Grounding point, Install a new Stud, Crimp ( AND SOLDER ) and bolt to a clean ground point. --- (((so, from this new ground point on frame, Run another #12 Black wire and Route it up the the NEG Battery Stud. SOLDER IT TO THE CABLE STUD, AND Cover with new layer of Shrink tubeing insulation. --- (( If you have NOT removed the Pins from the Bike side of your Reg. output plug as yet !!! Do that. Also, Do the Pins going thru that Plug, have a TIGHT FIT ????? Did you check for corrosion on the crimps of those pins ??? ---(( Also, another Item, you said the Stator white plug had been Removed, and wires were solderd. POINT- It might be worth opening up those 3 splices and checking the connections, RESOLDER THEM !!! Left Field, -- but ?? --- Anyhow I've got some things to try. Thank you and I'll let you know how I make out. Won't be for a couple of days.. Work (evil word) gets in the way sometimes. :-) Wayne Good luck -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnDave77 Posted May 15, 2009 Share #25 Posted May 15, 2009 I found this while I was looking up some other things. Seems easy to follow and makes sense (to me anyways). It's a "Fault finding chart for motorcycle charging systems". Something to try ? http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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