COP (coil over plug) ignition

My 24 year old ride is showing it's age. Coils need replaced but I don't want to replace old technology with old technology. I know a COP system is available but I'm having a heck of a time finding info that's directly related to the Venture. Any help with good links would be appreciated.

I'd like to do the same thing on my 08 RSTD, Still looking for the information

on how this can be done. ??

I do recall, somebody talking about this modification

Gary (dingy) has converted his Gen I and is in the process of another with his hybrid. My 86 is using the COP's from a 2008 Honda CBR 1000 with the Ignitec CDI conversion. Gary seems to be the authority for this conversion (where I obtained mine) and will likely chime in soon. This is a very clean installation and opens up a large area with the OEM coils removed.

I knew Dingy had done something with it. I would like to retain my CDI if possible since it's in great condition and would be an extra cost. I know it's been done on the vmax's so shouldn't be too difficult on the Venture.

The COP's (Coil Over Plugs) coil sticks are fairly easy to install, with some rewiring to the stock harness.

Main issue with using them is the primary coil in the COP's is a lower resistance in some COP's than what the primary coil resistance is in the stock coils. This lower primary resistance then leads to a higher current draw through the coils, which has been known to damage the internal circuitry on the stock TCI's rendering them useless. There are some COP's made that have a primary resistance in the 3 ohm range of the stock coils, but I don't know offhand what models they are.

I have gotten both sets of COP's I use from Ebay. Both sets was from a 2007 CBR, You want to get a set that has the wiring connectors included as they are rather specialized connectors. One set I paid $20 for and other was $45.

One of the VMax guys has (or had) a kit he sells with a rather large resistor in each of the coil circuits to prevent the over current. He sells the complete kit, Good (used) COP's, and wiring harness with resistors. I do not know price, but I could find out. He hasn't divulged the type of resistors he uses that I know of.

There are also COP's coils available in different lengths, the longer ones probably won't fit on a Venture.

Since you are happy with your current TCI, next bit is info only. The Ignitech TCI's have a dwell setting in the program that will compensate for the lower primary coil resistance. I have had COP's on Tweety (83 VMaxed 1300) for 2 years and it works well. I initially started using COP's due to wanting the larger VMax air box, which interfered with battery location on the Venture. Be eliminating the stock coils, I was able to relocate the battery into the area where they were.

Gary

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350847290438

here's a set of 3 (3 ??) for the vmax

I just read 18 pages of thread in Vmax forum, whew:) They talk like they have run thousands of miles using the short Denso coils with stock TCI and no resistors. Couldn't yet access some of the links due to being a new member.

Attached is a picture of kit VMax member sells.

His screen name is 88vmx12 VMaxforum.net

Price he has on this kit is $215, it would be a little less for a Venture, there is no use for the T-boost adapter shown in upper left corner on a Venture.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=24692

Gary

I just read 18 pages of thread in Vmax forum, whew:) They talk like they have run thousands of miles using the short Denso coils with stock TCI and no resistors. Couldn't yet access some of the links due to being a new member.

I didn't say every TCI was burnt up using COP's, the digital style stock TCI's from 90-07 on the VMax's seem to hold up better than the analog TCI's on the 85-89 VMax's.

Gary

Gary, Thanks for the link!

So who is going to try these on a 2nd gen RSV or RSTD ?

I wonder if figuring out what kind of resistor is needed is as simple as measuring the resistance of a stock coil/plugwire combo ?

Are the connectors the same (that would be too lucky) as the 1st gen /vmax?

The kit price isn't too bad considering everything is there ready to go.

http://www.densoautoparts.com/direct-ignition-coils-cop

So who is going to try these on a 2nd gen RSV or RSTD ?

 

I wonder if figuring out what kind of resistor is needed is as simple as measuring the resistance of a stock coil/plugwire combo ?

 

Are the connectors the same (that would be too lucky) as the 1st gen /vmax?

 

The kit price isn't too bad considering everything is there ready to go.

 

 

http://www.densoautoparts.com/direct-ignition-coils-cop

The resistance is the easy part, but most inexpensive multimeters are not accurate enough at that low of resistance to determine what resistance is needed.

Then you would need to figure out the amperage going through the coil to determine the needed wattage of resistor. A peak reading DC clamp on meter will easily get you that number. Or you could just calculate it based on resistance and voltage and ignore impedance.

As to the type of resistor, I would guess that you would want a non inductive type like a carbon resistor, a wire wound type may cause other issues with its added inductance.

I wasn't aware of the COP's until this thread. It appears that my car, a 2005 merc Marquis uses them. A new set of 8 for my merc coats $50 (aftermarket Orion brand). The ones I've seen looking at this seem to all use the same 2 prong connector.

Resistor wattage, err on the high side when in doubt. I inherited my father's old Simpson VOM. Same as I used in tech school during HS years. Should be accurate enough. 20,000 ohm internal impedance if I remember right?

So what are the chances that the 2nd gen could use the same COP as my car?

spark=spark=spark

I ran an old 650 Triumph on a Suzuki coil from a junk bin when I couldn't find one of the correct Lucas coils.

Notes from two ebay listing on a COP (for example)

Primary Resistance 0.620 ohms / 0.5 ohms

Secondary Resistance 5.6K ohms / 5.43K

Turns Ratio 66:1 / 68/1

Honda MC thread on doing a conversion: http://www.rc51forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6482

http://www.ngk.de/en/technology-in-detail/ignition-coils/design-of-an-ignition-coil/design-of-a-pencil-coil-single-spark-coil-coil-on-plug/

Below are a few more links to VMax site dealing with COP's & resistors.

VMax site is not PG rated, FYI.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=31975&highlight=cop%27s+resistor

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=5427&page=5

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=29827&highlight=cop%27s+resistor

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=28460&highlight=cop%27s+resistor

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=16764&highlight=cop%27s+resistor

Gary

So who is going to try these on a 2nd gen RSV or RSTD ?

 

I wonder if figuring out what kind of resistor is needed is as simple as measuring the resistance of a stock coil/plugwire combo ?

 

Are the connectors the same (that would be too lucky) as the 1st gen /vmax?

 

The kit price isn't too bad considering everything is there ready to go.

 

 

http://www.densoautoparts.com/direct-ignition-coils-cop

I don't know of a reason they won't work on an RSV. I have test fitted them on the motor I have built for the RSV Hybrid and they will clear the chrome valve cover caps on the valve covers. This was with the sticks from a 2007 CBR.

Gary

The COP's (Coil Over Plugs) coil sticks are fairly easy to install, with some rewiring to the stock harness.

 

Gary

With the ignitech tci how much work is involved to change to COP?

Thanks

Duane

With the ignitech tci how much work is involved to change to COP?

 

Thanks

Duane

It's about 30 min or less to install ignitech TCI. Then remove stock plug wires to coils. Install cop sticks and wire power leads into connectors where existing coils plug into main harness. Probably a couple hours installing COP's.

Ignitech TCI does not connect directly to coils, it interfaces through existing main harness via a short adapter cable.

Changing to COP's from stock coils is seperate change from Ignitech swap. Benefit I see with Ignitech, there is no need for resistors being installed in COP's. Ignitech has a setting that is changed when using lower primary resistance coils.

Gary

It's about 30 min or less to install ignitech TCI. Then remove stock plug wires to coils. Install cop sticks and wire power leads into connectors where existing coils plug into main harness. Probably a couple hours installing COP's.

 

Ignitech TCI does not connect directly to coils, it interfaces through existing main harness via a short adapter cable.

 

Changing to COP's from stock coils is seperate change from Ignitech swap. Benefit I see with Ignitech, there is no need for resistors being installed in COP's. Ignitech has a setting that is changed when using lower primary resistance coils.

 

Gary

I already have the Ignitech TCI, I wanted to know how much wiring I would have to alter and where to make it work.

I already have the Ignitech TCI, I wanted to know how much wiring I would have to alter and where to make it work.

The COP's connect to the 2 pin connector on the main harness at each coil.

Cop's do not make a connection directly to TCI.

There are 4 yellow plugs (2) pin plugs, 1 to each coil, stock coil has mating plug. Unplug stock coils and wire COPs into the harness end of each plug.

Gary

COP May be worth a look.

 

The Ignitech TCI's have a dwell setting in the program that will compensate for the lower primary coil resistance. I have had COP's on Tweety (83 VMaxed 1300) for 2 years and it works well. I initially started using COP's due to wanting the larger VMax air box, which interfered with battery location on the Venture. Be eliminating the stock coils, I was able to relocate the battery into the area where they were.

 

Gary

Which dwell setting would I use?

Which dwell setting would I use?

Auto, which is what I am using, or Short.

Gary

Picture of the top of the CBR Denso coils I am using. Positive wire is on right side, connector is towards top of picture. Polarity is important.

Other picture is what coil looks like, viewed with air box removed, this is left front coil.

Object in upper right of 2nd picture is the VBoost servo motor, in case you are wondering what that is.

Gary

Got my COPs installed and fired up. Going to do some riding tomorrow with them. I went ahead and took the gamble with no resistors since I have the 90+ digital TCI. I ran my wiring in the factory loom that the high tension wire ran in, then snipped the connectors off my stock coils and used them. I already had a bunch of plastic off since I installed the upgraded battery cables but I left the stock coils in place since I didn't want to remove the fairing. I'm sure at a later date I will have it off and can remove coils then.

Can't really notice much difference in garage but it started up and ran fine. On stock setup I could hear an ignition tick in my speakers with radio on, drove the wife nuts since her hearing is much better than mine. The tick is gone now. Looking forward to road testing tomorrow.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x337/steve_roseman/Venture/COPs/securedownload.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x337/steve_roseman/Venture/COPs/securedownload1.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x337/steve_roseman/Venture/COPs/securedownload2.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x337/steve_roseman/Venture/COPs/securedownload6.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x337/steve_roseman/Venture/COPs/securedownload8.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x337/steve_roseman/Venture/COPs/securedownload9.jpg

250 miles today and everything worked perfect!