My thoughts on the Experienced Rider Course

[straycatt]

A couple of weeks ago I was surfing around the web and happened onto the local community college ad for the beginner and experienced rider courses.

I was curious to know how far in advance they were booked to. The beginner class is full to June, even having class every Fri/Sat/Sun from April thru September. The experienced rider class is held only one Saturday with an early AM class and late PM class.

 

For a whole $25 I thought I'd give it a try. I called admissions to sign up for the AM session and was told "sorry, no can do. Lack of interest canceled the AM class, but we do have space in the PM course."

 

Readers Digest version, they take up to 16 bikes per class and there were 10 riders there including yours truly.

Now in all fairness, it was raining off and on for most of the day, so I suppose that's a reason for the no-shows, the class was fully booked.

 

Nine guys, one girl. Riders ran from a low of 25 years old to a high of 55. Experience level was surprising to me, and a tad scary.

The 30something guy riding a very nice shiny newer Goldwing said he had a total of about 30 days riding experience. I'm sorry, did you say you're first bike is a Goldwing and you've been riding for 1 month?

Yup, that's what he said.

At least he had his M endorsement.

 

A couple of the guys had several years on various bikes, but the norm seemed to be 1 year give or take. I was the old man with my 40some years. There was only one rider that professed to regular (or ever) practicing parking lot drills. I felt a little lonely. lol

There was the usual assortment of HD's, the Wing, a Triumph Tiger, FJR, FZ, V Star, an V Strom, and my Venture.

 

Class time sucked. Or at least I assume it sucked as about 1/3 of the class had paperwork that said the class started a 1:30 when it actually started at noon. I was really bummed to be late. (yeah right)

The riding drills were pretty much the same thing as the BRC and almost bored me to tears. Most of them I did once or twice and then parked to watch the other riders. Now that was fun. Nobody dropped anything, but they did come close a few times.

 

The high point of the entire thing was the last drill. A large elongated oval with a kind of "swerve" on one side. They split the group in half and had five bikes at a time play follow the leader. The first group had all of the less, ah...stable, riders in it. They pretty much crawled around the circuit.

The other group was the FJR, a Dyna Wide, V Strom, Tiger, and Venture. A comment was made along the lines of it being alright to step up the pace a tad, and we were off.

 

We all stayed on the rubber with only the Dyna and myself dragging parts on every corner, and the instructor slowing us down only once. I never did get out of first gear. I know, it's not a race, but it's supposed to be fun, and that made it fun.

 

All in all, it wasn't a waste of time, but it came close. Now bear in mind that is the opinion of a rider with more than 40 years on two wheels, who still does slow speed parking lot practice on a regular basis. I was a little surprised that I did as well as I did considering that I've had this Venture for only about 1200 miles. I bought it late last fall when I sold my Spirit 11.

 

For some of the newer riders, it likely did a bit of good. The Goldwing guy was absolutely more comfortable at the end than when he got there, and the lone girl, riding a 1200 Sporty, was still shaky but said she felt better for having done the class. She told me that her first X-way ride was on the way to the course.

 

I'll admit I didn't really expect to get a lot out of it. I was surprised at how easily the Venture scraped running boards. I hadn't had one drag before, and this class did accelerate the experience for me so if nothing else, it was worth that lesson.

Plus, it was fun pulling into the lot wearing my non DOT beanie, sneakers, fingerless gloves and just a t-shirt in the light rain, then changing to stuff they'd let me ride in while I met the group.

 

Any time riding is a good time and for $25 it was worth it

[flb_78]

you must be a truly amazing rider. I can't wait to read more stories about how great you are and how you need no gear.

[straycatt]

you must be a truly amazing rider. I can't wait to read more stories about how great you are and how you need no gear.

 

That's all you got out of it?

I must not be a very good writer then. (duh!) I tried to give an honest factual account of the day, with a little funny at the end.

 

Consider it worth exactly what you paid me to write it.

 

And btw, since I don't use a whole lotta' safety clothing, I do try to know what I'm doing and I spend time practicing to keep my skills sharp. Can I screw up? Certainly, but I make the effort to minimize the risk.

 

I find it hard to understand how anyone could have a problem with it.

[Sylvester]

I take the Advanced Rider Safety every two years and have for over a decade. Not for some paper that says I took it, but as a bench mark to alert me whether age is causing lack of motor skills.

 

[Guest Ken8143]

I did the basic class couple years ago - and! found it valuable. I would like to do the advanced class. Your comment about frequent parking lot drills motivated me to work on those slow turns on my own! Any quick advice about the 180 turns in a small area, or tight 360's?

[CaptainJoe]

Someone that has been riding for 42 years, Should have, in my humble opinion, a lot of experience and knowledge. That in itself is not surprising.

So you only picked up one or two things. Well, that may just be enough to save you and your passenger one day.

Just keep an open mind.

I am 51 going on 52 and have been riding motorcycles since 14 and rode mini bikes for a couple of years before that. That equates to between 38 - 40 years plus experience.

I'm still learning and infact ordered Ride like a Pro V, 2 months ago. I would recommend that video to anyone that rides a bike.

Even with all that experience, a deer jumped up on to the side of the road and took the bike out from under me in about a milla-second. I knew he was going to hit me so I came down hard on the brakes locking both front and back for 12 feet and left up on brakes right before the 'side' impact. I was travelling at 45 mph, maybe bleed of 10 mph, before hitting the the pavement with my full face helmet and left rib cage, breaking 2 of my ribs right below the left collarbone. The reason I'm "sharing" this experience, is that I use to think I could ride my way out of just about anything. Now, I'm positive that I can't. The ER Doctors were amazed at what llittle damage I had and stated what saved me was my Alpinestar jacket, gloves, steeltoe boots and full face helmet. I slid 42 feet unconsious on my helmet visor. I'd hate to think what it would have looked like had I been wearing my half helmet like I normally do. Guess what? That half helmet is in the garbage can. Did I learn anything from that experience? You betcha. Had my jacket had armor in the chest of the jacket, I wouldnt even have broken ribs. I ordered a set for my wife and I that will be sewn in ASAP.

[RSTDdog]

I did the basic class couple years ago - and! found it valuable. I would like to do the advanced class. Your comment about frequent parking lot drills motivated me to work on those slow turns on my own! Any quick advice about the 180 turns in a small area, or tight 360's?

 

If you don't do it already, drag the rear brake in slow turns. Allows you to keep the engine loaded against the throttle and clutch and regulate the maneuver speed. This also works well for staying upright at real slow speed without putting your feet down.

 

We have a bridge I cross in the morning going to work. It can be bumper to bumper. I practice timing, balance and brake dragging by trying to cross without putting my feet down. Its about 2 miles across the bridge.

 

My comment on Safety gear is this: If I were the only one on the road, I probably wouldn't wear it, but since I'm not......... Also donot recommend crossing the Everglades (41 or the Alley) without a Full face helmet, large windshield or preferably Both.

 

RSTDdog

 

Riding with a helmet so long that I'm uncomfortable riding with out one.

[Guest seuadr]

experienced rider isn't the best name for the course. they explained it when i took it out here in lansing as "experenced means, we dont' start with how the clutch works" i was a little dissappointed as well. i was hoping for more complex theory and more advanced drills.

 

i'm looking to take the lee parks control clinic and advanced rider tactics classes in the future.

[Dave77459]

experienced rider isn't the best name for the course. they explained it when i took it out here in lansing as "experenced means, we dont' start with how the clutch works" i was a little dissappointed as well. i was hoping for more complex theory and more advanced drills.

 

i'm looking to take the lee parks control clinic and advanced rider tactics classes in the future.

 

Thank you for the explanation of "experienced". Clearly, experienced means different things to different people. I would hope that such a class would teach any rider something, even with 42 years under their belt.

 

I will say that when I took the "Riders Edge" class, there was a couple in the class who I'd call experienced. He'd ridden for 25 years, and she'd been a passenger for 25 years. She'd bought a bike herself (a nice Harley) and felt qualified to ride it since she'd been a passenger so long. She'd dropped it three times, hard enough to need repairs, before the service manager compt'd her to the class. Hubby went with her to keep her company.

 

The husband was a shambles at the beginning... he'd ridden wrong for 25 years and it was in muscle memory. By the end of the class, he'd actually improved dramatically, and was very glad to have taken even the introductory class. The wife dropped the Buell Blast so many times that she was flunked out.

 

I was considering the Experienced class, but I think I'll skip it. I took the Ride Like A Pro class (they offer it here), and I'll go find a parking lot to practice.

 

Dave

[dynodon]

First, the best advice to making any turn, but especially tight turns is to TURN YOUR HEAD and LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO BE! Look around the corner. AS soon as you look straight ahead, you are done! It is hard to do, but you can force it. I practice this all the time in my cage. Yes, you can practice looking around a corner in a cage, and it will make you a better driver. By looking around the corner you will not turn in too soon, and you won't weave around the corner. once you learn that your mind/body will make the turn correctly, you can have more confidence in doing this. Try it, it really works. Yes, you can sneak a peek a couple times to make sure you don't hit hidden sand/gravel or some other object, but keep looking down the road as far as you can.

 

Second, I have not taken the ERC but I did watch some of my riding friends take it a couple years ago. The course they took was in Peoria, IL at the local Jr. College. It was a lot more involved than the one straycat described, so check out the course in your area, it could be better or worse than expected.

 

Third, I practice low speed maneuvers a lot, and since starting riding again about 5 years ago, I have gone from a "on the feet" crawling turn around, to a leaning turn around that I can do on a country road, or less than two lanes of a typical two lane. I can do it better, but it takes constant practice for me. I practice in a small parking area in my driveway, or at any parking lot I happen to be at with an extra few seconds. IT is fun to watch other "experienced riders" get amazed at me scraping the pegs of my '86 VR while they walk their bikes around. I did buy and watch the Ride Like a Pro DVD and highly recommend it to any rider. I would go to their in person class if I was near one.

[WHiP]

"I have gone from a "on the feet" crawling turn around, to a leaning turn around that I can do on a country road, or less than two lanes of a typical two lane."

 

I had the same experience. I'm 54 and have been riding something with two wheels and a motor since I was 7 or 8 years old. My father ran a Harley aftermarket shop in our backyard.

 

Earlier this year I was riding with a local meetup group that had a lot of inexperienced riders. Apparently Texas now requires a basic safety class before issuing a motorcycle endorsement. These riders were discussing techniques from the course to use on the hill country roads - pressing, leaning turning your head, braking before the curve not after, etc. When one of them asked me how I managed the curves, I couldn't really tell them, I just ride by instinct. I was impressed with their knowledge and the fact that they drove so deliberately, meaning there was a purpose and a method to how they rode their bike. I don't know how many times I've applied brakes in a curve even though I know I shouldn't and I had never even heard of this look press lean thing. I decided to take the skilled rider course the Harley dealer give, it cost $75.

 

There were 12 bikes, 11 Harleys and one (my) 2000 Royal Star Venture. Most of the other riders were required to take this course periodically to be road captains in their HOG clubs. The course was all day long. Lots of slow speed manuevering drills, the oval thing as described. I did learn to decrease my turning radius simply by turning my head and keeping my eyes focused up rather than on the road in front of my bike. They didn't cover the clutch/brake thing but I learned that a long time ago from a motorcycle cop. On my Triumph I could just about stand still indefinetly. I haven't been able to master that on the RSV, mine doesn't seem to have a lot of clutch (already slips) and the rear brake is very strong. There really wasn't anything I hadn't heard (and mostly forgotten)but it was good to practice that stuff.

 

Overall, It was a worth the time and money especially considering Progressive reduced my insurance a little as well. Also, I have been riding more deliberately, thinking ahead a little, paying more attention to what I'm doing. It actually makes it more interesting to ride these hill country roads if your really thinking and challenging the curves a little.

 

I recommend the course to even the most experienced rider. That's my $.02 worth or rather $75.00 worth.

[straycatt]

I did the basic class couple years ago - and! found it valuable. I would like to do the advanced class. Your comment about frequent parking lot drills motivated me to work on those slow turns on my own! Any quick advice about the 180 turns in a small area, or tight 360's?

 

The advice in the above posts is good.

Turn your head to look thru the turn, don't look at the ground other than a glance for debris. Tight figure eights are done best by leaning the bike (full lock handlebars) to the inside of the turn and then leaning your body to the outside of the turn. That allows the steering geometry of your bike to make the tightest radius possible.

 

Drag the rear brake, keep the revs up a little and slip the clutch some (friction zone).

I use four parking spaces....two wide nose to nose with the other two, to do figure eights in. When you can consistently stay inside the lines and not run past the ends, you're pretty damn good.

 

If you ever get a chance to watch the Police Motor officers ride or practice a skills Rodeo, do it. You can learn more from closely watching these guys than you can almost anywhere else short of a Palidino class.

Flint Mi has what they call "Bikes on the Bricks" held in August or September. The big attraction is a Motor LEO Rodeo. The first year had 15 or so riders, last year there were more than 50 from all over the state. They are hoping this becomes the largest skills competition of its kind in this part of the country. Admission is free and it's a good time.

 

Anyway, ride. I spend oddles of time just playing with my bikes, I ride. I have no doubt I'm not the best rider to ever grace the planet, and I can learn new tricks if there is something to learn from. But I'm fairly good, because I ride, and the only people that should matter to is me and my rear.

I think the MSF Experienced Rider Course is named improperly. It should be called the Second Year Rider Course. If you've mastered these skills and use them occasionally you don't need this course.

Having never taken the BRC I was expecting to be challenged. I wasn't. For $25 it was worth it. If I had paid $50, I'd have been upset.

 

Bottom line, as always, try it for yourself. You may get more out of it than I did.

Above all, just ride.

[rod]

The ERC is geared for a rider with 6 mo to a year riding after the BRC. It teaches how to match bike, rider and techniques for handling a larger bike. The book part is for mental/perceptions skills and risk management for the most part. On the range it is about control of your bike. Counter weight, counter steer, look where you want to go, entry speed, etc. The ARC-ST is more advanced riding techniques, skill to risk ratio, good judgment. On the range body position, trail braking, adjusting speed in the corner, better cornering and braking. If you want a challenge try the ARC-ST. The ride like a pro is a great resource it helped me on the Venture.The book "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch is another good resource. The more you learn and practice the better/safer rider you will be. Rod

[KiteSquid]

The ARC-ST is more advanced riding techniques, skill to risk ratio, good judgment.

 

I this the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Advanced Rider Course, Sport Bike Techniques????

 

 

 

I ask as I could not see where the acronym ARC-ST was defined.

 

 

If it is, would I be able to take the course on a Yamaha Royal Star Venture (RSV)?

 

 

 

The more you learn and practice the better/safer rider you will be.

 

I agree, now I have to get out more often and practice!!!!!!

Edited May 3, 2010 by KiteSquid

[FutureVentures]

Nice post Stray cat.

One thing amazed me though:

"I was surprised at how easily the Venture scraped running boards. I hadn't had one drag before, and this class did accelerate the experience for me so if nothing else, it was worth that lesson."

 

Prior to this you had never scraped the boards? You must be a lot more conservative in the turns.

I actually try to scrape mine as it's just kinda fun, especially at night! Funny though, I like scraping to the left but to the right, no, no, no, don't like it as much.

 

The ride like a pro DVD's are awesome. I practice the skills frequently, but still not enough.

 

CaptainJoe, great post. I always learn so much from reading stories like yours. Lately, I've only been wearing my full face helmet. It's not as comfortable and sometimes I feel like a dorky astronaut but, I still think it's better than a skin graft on my face.

Edited May 3, 2010 by FutureVentures
adding a thought.

[Guest seuadr]

I actually try to scrape mine as it's just kinda fun, especially at night! Funny though, I like scraping to the left but to the right, no, no, no, don't like it as much.

 

thats funny, i'm the opposite. i don't mind hard right leans, don't like hard left leans

[straycatt]

 

Prior to this you had never scraped the boards? You must be a lot more conservative in the turns.

 

My Venture and I are in the early dating stage right now. We've been going together for just a few actual "riding months". Our first date was just this past September and then we played it cool for a few Michigan months.

 

I got to first and second base fairly quick, but since I'm hoping this will be a long term relationship, I thought it best to take it slow to third base and home.

Saturday was third base, I'm getting to know her pretty well now, so home can't be far behind.

 

I'm finding the Venture is more of a sport bike than it appears. I didn't pick her up to drag running boards so I really hadn't pushed her that far, but now that I know how well she'll lay down......she's gonna spend some time on her side. Or rather, at least close.

[TEW47]

I do the ERC several times a year, since I am one of the ERC instructors in our business, Gulf Coast Motorcycle Safety. Last year I had a guy that worked in a motorcycle shop a he did not use his front brake. I told him he whould if he wan't to pass the course. He didn't know you got 70% of you braking power from the front brake. Have seen alot of crazy thing people do, some of it is real funny. You press on the handle bars to do WHAT?

 

tew47

[Guest Swifty]

I got to first and second base fairly quick, but since I'm hoping this will be a long term relationship, I thought it best to take it slow to third base and home.

Why? I figure you gotta find out ASAP if you can get to home plate; if she's not going to take you home, there ain't going to be a long term relationship...so I'd just dump'er.

On the other hand, there are guys like 86er who get dumped before he even gets to find out if she'll go to home plate.

[rod]

ARC-ST = Advanced rider course, Sportbike techniques and yes do it on the Venture, you will love it. Very different then the ERC. Rod