Condor Posted October 5, 2011 Share #26 Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) I did this mod yesterday and only found a small improvement! What did I do wrong? That's my thinking. If the bike slows and stops reasonably well, why in in the H does everyone find a need to go back in time with a set up 'like I used to have...' :stirthepot: Edited October 5, 2011 by Condor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share #27 Posted October 5, 2011 I did this mod yesterday and only found a small improvement! What did I do wrong? Did you already have delinked brakes? Benifit of doing it through proportioning valve initially is the same rear brake line will work. If it is moved to the front port, new line is required due to greater distance. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share #28 Posted October 5, 2011 If the bike slows and stops reasonably well, :stirthepot: Difference between stopping reasonably well, and stopping to its maximum ability may allow you to see the next sunrise. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 5, 2011 Share #29 Posted October 5, 2011 That's my thinking. If the bike slows and stops reasonably well, why in in the H does everyone find a need to go back in time with a set up 'like I used to have...' :stirthepot: It kind of depends on the subject. Linked brakes on the VR were designed for riders that didn't know how to properly apply brakes with a front brake bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #30 Posted October 6, 2011 Difference between stopping reasonably well, and stopping to its maximum ability may allow you to see the next sunrise. Gary Or put you in a ditch...... If you can lock them up with the OEM system you don't need anything more... Face it. Brakes will only slow you down until the tires loose traction. Outside of the weak front brakes on the MKI's I for the life of me can't understand why anyone would want to mess around with something that works.... :confused07: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #31 Posted October 6, 2011 It kind of depends on the subject. Linked brakes on the VR were designed for riders that didn't know how to properly apply brakes with a front brake bias. Not really... They were designed to work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share #32 Posted October 6, 2011 Not really... They were designed to work better. Why didn't they make it to the RSV's then if they are that good? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #33 Posted October 6, 2011 Why didn't they make it to the RSV's then if they are that good? Gary There are a lot of things they didn't do to the 2ndGens to save on production costs and keep the retail down... Linked brakes was one of them.. Sensitive rear brakes and OMG locks up by many riders were the result... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 6, 2011 Share #34 Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Face it. Brakes will only slow you down until the tires loose traction. Outside of the weak front brakes on the MKI's I for the life of me can't understand why anyone would want to mess around with something that works.... :confused07: I don't think any performance bikes have linked brakes. My 1999 Ninja does not have linked brakes and I do not feel that changing the 1985 VR brakes to operate like a 1999 Ninja going backwards. The VR front brakes feel weak because of the linked configuration. The VR linked brakes do not work very well other than in a straight line. A good braking system is repeated on other motorcycles and this system was completely discontinued. Linked brakes seem to appear on expensive touring bikes where the drivers are generally older and not very skilled. The riders that defend the linked brakes can be honest and admit they simply like the way the system works for them. Instead we have riders that want to insist the linked brakes work better. Edited October 7, 2011 by GaryZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #35 Posted October 6, 2011 I don't think any performance bikes have linked brakes. My 1999 Ninja does not have linked brakes and I do not feel that changing the 1985 VR brakes to operate like a 1999 Ninja going backwards. The VR front brakes feel weak because of the linked configuration. The VR linked brakes do not work very well. A good braking system is repeated on other motorcycles and this system was completely discontinued. Linked brakes seem to appear on expensive touring bikes where the drivers are generally older and not very skilled. The riders that defend the linked brakes can be honest and admit they simply like the way the system works for them. Instead we have riders that want to insist the linked brakes work better. I guess that's why many of the major manufactured backed track bikes are now looking at computorized traction and power controll. Why?? Because it's better. And lets face it a 1stGen ain't a Ninja, and a Ninja ain't a track bike. Also there's absolutely nothing wrong with 1stGen MKII brakes. They do an excellent job, but like I mentioned in a previous post the MKI beta models needed help. Not because the brakes were linked, but because of the equipment. That was corrected with the MKII. Delinking the brakes on a 1stGen doesn't add an iota to their stopping ability. This is being honest.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus1300 Posted October 6, 2011 Share #36 Posted October 6, 2011 Not too change the subject too much but I have a question about removing the proportioning valve.If you do that wouldn't you end up with an overly sensitive rear brake:confused24:? I would think that you would need something to limit the force going to the rear brake as the weight will shift foreward during braking and unload the rear giving you less traction.Just wondering out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share #37 Posted October 6, 2011 Not too change the subject too much but I have a question about removing the proportioning valve.If you do that wouldn't you end up with an overly sensitive rear brake:confused24:? I would think that you would need something to limit the force going to the rear brake as the weight will shift foreward during braking and unload the rear giving you less traction.Just wondering out loud. The discussion going on only is pertaining to Linked Vs Delinked brakes on 1st gen bikes. Delinking includes severing the rear rotor/left front rotor conection and ties the two front rotors together, both operated from front master. Delinking the brakes should only be done if you are mechanically skilled. Delinking will signifigantly alter bikes braking charictaristics. Some like it, some don't want to try it. DO NOT remove proportioning or metering valves on a stock setup. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 6, 2011 Share #38 Posted October 6, 2011 I like the linked system. Just a little more "Grab" on the whole system would be nice. I'm looking at R1 stuff and steel lines but I don't think that I would do away with linked system.... But goose claims I ain't too bright??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #39 Posted October 6, 2011 Some like it, some don't want to try it. DO NOT remove proportioning or metering valves on a stock setup. Gary Not that we don't like it, as most of us have been riding bikes before the linking of brakes ever came along. The design was an improvement over the 'old' separated brakes. I see no benefit going backwards. Heck, if the old ways were better lets go back to drum brakes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 6, 2011 Share #40 Posted October 6, 2011 Not that we don't like it, as most of us have been riding bikes before the linking of brakes ever came along. The design was an improvement over the 'old' separated brakes. I see no benefit going backwards. Heck, if the old ways were better lets go back to drum brakes.... I don't Jack. I have drum on the rear of that 750 Maxium with disk on the front and they work great. But about 500 lb less than the Venture?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg_in_london Posted October 6, 2011 Share #41 Posted October 6, 2011 I tried to avoid commenting on the quality of braking systems, but... Delinking the brakes on a 1stGen doesn't add an iota to their stopping ability. This is being honest.... This is not true. (I mean, not accurate - I don't mean your'e not being honest ;-))The reduction valve reduces the pressure to the front left brake disc. This is needed because you have less feel with your foot. The proportioning valve reduces the pressure to the back brake once are slowing down. Having to combine your insensitive foot with braking from your hand means you have little control over braking force on the front, so it is fortunate that the system is not very powerful. In the UK, the braking system was one of the things the press slated when they were knew, including locking up wheels in the wet when trying to get some braking. I forget the exact wording, but Yamaha said that the braking system was to try and make the system idiot-proof. hang on - just checked and found it: "The exclusive advantage to this brake system is that the brake operation requires no skill..."http://labs.trunkful.com/vrmanuals/8385servicemanual.pdf page 130 (I added the underlining.) If you like the standard system and it is adequate for your needs - probably big wide open freeways - then good, if it suits you. It is not very sophisticated though, and if you want more powerful brakes, that's the way to go. I would always remove the proportioning valve myself - that just makes it an ORDINARY back brake, the same as any other bike of the period (except harleys, which I understand have almost negligible braking, so much so that some people remove one of the brakes and don't notice much difference??? Are they insane ???) and not particularly grabby. Delinking the brakes was another upgrade for me. Putting SS hoses on is just maintenance - it is cheaper and better than rubber, which must be suspect by now. I hear that some modern bikes have linked brakes (and ABS, so the lack of feel and control matters less), but the VR system really put me off the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 6, 2011 Share #42 Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) The design was an improvement over the 'old' separated brakes. I see no benefit going backwards. You've now repeated this twice. This is not true and the second time makes it dishonest. Separate controls for the front and rear brakes is not a step backwards, it is the standard on most motorcycles today. ABS is added to separate brake controls on most bikes. The touring bikes with linked brakes today are not linked to the rear brake pedal as is the VR system. The 'old' brakes around here are the VR MKI and MKII linked brakes . . . Thanks greg_in_london: Quote: "The exclusive advantage to this brake system is that the brake operation requires no skill..." Edited October 6, 2011 by GaryZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #43 Posted October 6, 2011 I tried to avoid commenting on the quality of braking systems, but... This is not true. (I mean, not accurate - I don't mean your'e not being honest ;-))The reduction valve reduces the pressure to the front left brake disc. This is needed because you have less feel with your foot. The proportioning valve reduces the pressure to the back brake once are slowing down. Having to combine your insensitive foot with braking from your hand means you have little control over braking force on the front, so it is fortunate that the system is not very powerful. In the UK, the braking system was one of the things the press slated when they were knew, including locking up wheels in the wet when trying to get some braking. I forget the exact wording, but Yamaha said that the braking system was to try and make the system idiot-proof. hang on - just checked and found it: http://labs.trunkful.com/vrmanuals/8385servicemanual.pdf page 130 (I added the underlining.) If you like the standard system and it is adequate for your needs - probably big wide open freeways - then good, if it suits you. It is not very sophisticated though, and if you want more powerful brakes, that's the way to go. I would always remove the proportioning valve myself - that just makes it an ORDINARY back brake, the same as any other bike of the period (except harleys, which I understand have almost negligible braking, so much so that some people remove one of the brakes and don't notice much difference??? Are they insane ???) and not particularly grabby. Delinking the brakes was another upgrade for me. Putting SS hoses on is just maintenance - it is cheaper and better than rubber, which must be suspect by now. I hear that some modern bikes have linked brakes (and ABS, so the lack of feel and control matters less), but the VR system really put me off the idea. Sounds like you're making a good case for linked brakes. Isn't making things simpler, and better, progress?? Since the VR is a touring bike, and not a crotch rocket, why would anyone want to mess with something that works.. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Granted some psychological benefit might be attained by doing something 'cool' to your bike, but other than putting R1 calipers on the MKI's and RSV's I see no performance benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #44 Posted October 6, 2011 You've now repeated this twice. This is not true and the second time makes it dishonest. Separate controls for the front and rear brakes is not a step backwards, it is the standard on most motorcycles today. ABS is added to separate brake controls on most bikes. The touring bikes with linked brakes today are not linked to the rear brake pedal as is the VR system. The 'old' brakes around here are the VR MKI and MKII linked brakes . . . Thanks greg_in_london: Quote: "The exclusive advantage to this brake system is that the brake operation requires no skill..." OK, since I'm so dishonest, and... heaven forbid... at the risk of repeating myself, what makes a seperated front/rear braking system superior to the linked Venture system? Give me a real time everyday non ABS example. BTW ABS by nature is applied to each wheel, ergo the system would have to be unlinked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 6, 2011 Share #45 Posted October 6, 2011 I don't Jack. I have drum on the rear of that 750 Maxium with disk on the front and they work great. But about 500 lb less than the Venture?? Heck, my Ariel Square Four had drums at both ends. Stopped fine, but a brake job was a biatch..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 7, 2011 Share #46 Posted October 7, 2011 Yeah the Maxium stops Great but a little more work to changing brakes. I check them every time I pull rear wheel. But I can lock front or rear without much effort. Can do same on Venture and without ABS what can be gained?? I've got the calipers to do "Ugly" my 85 but Steel lines are the best way to go for the 86? I don't intend to unlink either. In a panic situation I've leave it up to the proportioning valve to handle things when I grab all I can grab. I am not a Pro. I have a brother that claims he is better than ABS and I call Bull.... on that one too!!! YEAH I KNOW!! Get Back in the Corner!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share #47 Posted October 7, 2011 Yeah the Maxium stops Great but a little more work to changing brakes. I check them every time I pull rear wheel. But I can lock front or rear without much effort. Can do same on Venture and without ABS what can be gained?? I've got the calipers to do "Ugly" my 85 but Steel lines are the best way to go for the 86? I don't intend to unlink either. In a panic situation I've leave it up to the proportioning valve to handle things when I grab all I can grab. I am not a Pro. I have a brother that claims he is better than ABS and I call Bull.... on that one too!!! YEAH I KNOW!! Get Back in the Corner!!!! Dan, Try to get along with our fowl named brethren. Next thing, you will be arguing with Penguin or Peacock. And delinked brakes are certainly on of those love them or dumb idea topics, right up there with the darksiders and headlight modulators. And I do not mean this to be degrading to anyone that likes them, but I think the more experienced riders would see a difference if they were to ride to similar 1st gens in the course of a day. One linked and one delinked. I just prefer to have the best brakes I can have, as opposed to an adequate set. I also don't think that linked brakes were a very large manufacturing expense. Only real difference is the metering & proportioning valves, probably under $20 initial manufacturer cost. Trivial when compared to faux finned side covers or a digital dash. Quite similar to the anti-dive valve system, an experiment that never really panned out. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 7, 2011 Share #48 Posted October 7, 2011 I can get along with anyone that wants to get along!! But calling me Stupid will stick forever. Sorry Don. I will leave if needed. As for the brakes Gary on the 86 they just don't feel right. I'm thinking lines. A good working MK 1 system doesn't need improvment in my opinion. But each to his own. Just ride and enjoy!! I'm more interested in the Go than the stop.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted October 7, 2011 Share #49 Posted October 7, 2011 I can get along with anyone that wants to get along!! But calling me Stupid will stick forever. Sorry Don. I will leave if needed. As for the brakes Gary on the 86 they just don't feel right. I'm thinking lines. A good working MK 1 system doesn't need improvment in my opinion. But each to his own. Just ride and enjoy!! I'm more interested in the Go than the stop.... Didn't mean to cause a shoot out on this thread..... Yes I did.. It was raining all day and I didn't have anything better to do.... Plus outside of about half dozen members regularly posting here this place has been dead lately. Nothing like a little controversy to liven things up.... I love touchy subjects... and members... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 7, 2011 Share #50 Posted October 7, 2011 Now who would that be...:whistling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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