bartvaughan Posted October 19, 2009 Share #1 Posted October 19, 2009 I just bought a 1984 VR and like a dummy i hooked the battery from my car to it with jumper cables i did not start the car but it did start and run my problem is a wire connction started melting it is a three wire conctor that gose under the motor the wires are all the same color and the concetor has came apart plz help this dummy bart:crying: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flb_78 Posted October 19, 2009 Share #2 Posted October 19, 2009 Well, hooking the bike up to the car WILL NOT hurt anything. Both are 12volt systems. I've jumped many bikes from cars with no problems. If the wires started to melt, then there's a wiring problem with the bike. The car did not cause it. Im not familiar enough with the 1st gen models, but don't worry, someone much more in the know will be along to help. It might help if you could post pics of the affected plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted October 19, 2009 Share #3 Posted October 19, 2009 Stator connector maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camos Posted October 19, 2009 Share #4 Posted October 19, 2009 Well, hooking the bike up to the car WILL NOT hurt anything. Both are 12volt systems. I've jumped many bikes from cars with no problems. Just a little qualifier: Jumping a MC with the car running can very easily melt something since the MC charging system is designed to cope with a fairly low total amperage. Jumping with the vehicle off should not hurt anything on the MC that is in decent shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 19, 2009 Share #5 Posted October 19, 2009 Three white wires on the left side of the bike?? Strator Connection. Take them apart and clean good and dielectric grease them. It is best to cut this connection out and soder this connection. More help to come!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 19, 2009 Share #6 Posted October 19, 2009 Just a little qualifier: Jumping a MC with the car running can very easily melt something since the MC charging system is designed to cope with a fairly low total amperage. Jumping with the vehicle off should not hurt anything on the MC that is in decent shape. I had my VR connected to my running Astro van for over 20 minutes yesterday while I was syncing the carbs. Sorry Camos, you are mistaken. The MC will only draw the power it needs from the running car, just like the cars' own battery. A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 19, 2009 Share #7 Posted October 19, 2009 I take one of the 9 ft Extenision cords you can get at Dollar Store for a buck chop off the plug ends and put some electrical clips on it and I have a set of Motorcycle jumpers. Easy to carry in bag won't carry enough juice to be a danger to bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camos Posted October 19, 2009 Share #8 Posted October 19, 2009 I had my VR connected to my running Astro van for over 20 minutes yesterday while I was syncing the carbs. Sorry Camos, you are mistaken. The MC will only draw the power it needs from the running car, just like the cars' own battery. A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it . . . Well, I say I'm not mistaken. Just because you did it once does not mean you will get away with it all the time. I have not done an exhaustive research into this so I cannot define for you under what circumstances hooking up a car or truck charging system to an MC battery will cause damage. I only know one person who had a problem doing it but have read over the years of quite a number of others who have had wiring burn and batteries overload when hooked to a running vehicle. Just because some seem to get away with doing it or even if it is most, why take a chance? Unless the vehicle has a really bad battery, there is no need to have it running when trying to jump an MC. I can only speculate about the situation you describe, perhaps your battery was not totally dead. A completely discharged battery will try to charge at whatever rate it can and the vehicle system will sense the load and supply up to it's max output which could be as much as 75-100 amps more or less. Take the chance if you want but it is not a good idea in all situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted October 19, 2009 Share #9 Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) I had my VR connected to my running Astro van for over 20 minutes yesterday while I was syncing the carbs. Sorry Camos, you are mistaken. The MC will only draw the power it needs from the running car, just like the cars' own battery. A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it . . . In this case, Camos is correct. If the motorcycle uses a shunt type regulator/rectifier, and most do, the regulator COULD try to draw enough current to damage something from the slightly higher voltage and much higher current capacity of the automobiles electrical system, which may be what happened to Barts bike. I'm saying its POSSIBLE. The motorcycle R/R is trying to regulate the voltage it is seeing, lets say 13.9, from the car, and in doing so, it will try to clamp the excess input to ground thru a load, built into the regulator, dropping overall system voltage to say, 13.6. The bike's original stator may have been a 30 amp unit, and the stator can handle that amount of current. But not the current from the automobile's alternator, which could easily be in the range of 60-120 amps, and is now able to provide more current than the R/R can easily handle. Some components can sustain damage. Also, the relatively small motorcycle battery is not designed to be able to withstand the full charging current of an automobile's alternator. And if its partially or mostly discharged, hitting it with the output from a 100 amp alternator could sure as hell damage it, or even cause it to explode. Your statement "A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it" is only partially correct assuming a steady input voltage. Ask anyone who has seen a 6 volt lightbulb hooked up to a 12 volt source. Edited October 19, 2009 by tx2sturgis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartvaughan Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted October 19, 2009 ok here is the deal in detail i did not have a battery in the bike, the bike had sit gfor a year in the guys barn i hooked it up to my car and let it run that is when i saw the conncetor melting there are three wires coming out from behind the cover buy the shifter they are white dose it matter whitch wire gose to witch wire the wires came out of the conncetor sorry no pix right now wife has the camra with her can i just wire them back toghter or do they need to be put back in the same order the where before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dksmith196958 Posted October 20, 2009 Share #11 Posted October 20, 2009 you can jump a bike from a car or truck but you dont need to have it running ...it shouldnt take that much to start a bike 1200 cc-1900cc...a car battery is four times the size...needed to start a bike ...if you have the car our truck running you can get a voltage and amp spike that your bike does not need..melting things that normaly would not...dont make a small problem bigger.. o and it can blow all the bulbs out on the bike also:thumbdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted October 20, 2009 Share #12 Posted October 20, 2009 ok here is the deal in detail i did not have a battery in the bike, the bike had sit gfor a year in the guys barn i hooked it up to my car and let it run that is when i saw the conncetor melting there are three wires coming out from behind the cover buy the shifter they are white dose it matter whitch wire gose to witch wire the wires came out of the conncetor sorry no pix right now wife has the camra with her can i just wire them back toghter or do they need to be put back in the same order the where before With no battery in the bike, you probably fried the stator, and or regulator/rectifier. You MIGHT be lucky...and nothing is seriously damaged...lets hope. In the future, NEVER hook up to a bikes electrical system with anything putting out current, unless the battery is installed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartvaughan Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted October 20, 2009 can i just wire the wires together or is there a order there are no makeings on the wires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgray Posted October 20, 2009 Share #14 Posted October 20, 2009 if it is the stator wires, then there is no order. If they melted, the stator is probably fried they are kind of delicate in stock form already, I would open the stator cover and inspect it before hooking anything back up. at minimum do a ohm check between each other and to ground. If you burned up your stator, $150.00 to replace yourself for new, less if you find a used on on ebay. I would get a upgraded one if you are spending the money on a new one. Also get a new gasket... Never ever just fix a melted wire, the wires melt because something went horribly wrong. inspect everything carefully on both ends of the wire before attempting a repair. if you just hook it back up without inspecting and testing it may fry your regulator next.. Now you get to replace even more parts... I am unsure what each stator wire should read in ohms, someone should pop in with how to test it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpagak Posted October 20, 2009 Share #15 Posted October 20, 2009 Well, I say I'm not mistaken. Just because you did it once does not mean you will get away with it all the time. I have not done an exhaustive research into this so I cannot define for you under what circumstances hooking up a car or truck charging system to an MC battery will cause damage. I only know one person who had a problem doing it but have read over the years of quite a number of others who have had wiring burn and batteries overload when hooked to a running vehicle. Just because some seem to get away with doing it or even if it is most, why take a chance? Unless the vehicle has a really bad battery, there is no need to have it running when trying to jump an MC. I can only speculate about the situation you describe, perhaps your battery was not totally dead. A completely discharged battery will try to charge at whatever rate it can and the vehicle system will sense the load and supply up to it's max output which could be as much as 75-100 amps more or less. Take the chance if you want but it is not a good idea in all situations. i used to do it a lot.. never had a problem.. but i guess that it was because my stator were bad for a long time.. probably cause my stator was only runnin on 2 of the 3 legs that it had.. i would have to jump it if i let it set for a few days.. if i used it every day or 2 it was fine.. i didnt really know that it was bad.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 20, 2009 Share #16 Posted October 20, 2009 In this case, Camos is correct. If the motorcycle uses a shunt type regulator/rectifier, and most do, the regulator COULD try to draw enough current to damage something from the slightly higher voltage and much higher current capacity of the automobiles electrical system, which may be what happened to Barts bike. I'm saying its POSSIBLE. The motorcycle R/R is trying to regulate the voltage it is seeing, lets say 13.9, from the car, and in doing so, it will try to clamp the excess input to ground thru a load, built into the regulator, dropping overall system voltage to say, 13.6. The bike's original stator may have been a 30 amp unit, and the stator can handle that amount of current. But not the current from the automobile's alternator, which could easily be in the range of 60-120 amps, and is now able to provide more current than the R/R can easily handle. Some components can sustain damage. Also, the relatively small motorcycle battery is not designed to be able to withstand the full charging current of an automobile's alternator. And if its partially or mostly discharged, hitting it with the output from a 100 amp alternator could sure as hell damage it, or even cause it to explode. Your statement "A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it" is only partially correct assuming a steady input voltage. Ask anyone who has seen a 6 volt lightbulb hooked up to a 12 volt source. You and Camos are making many assumptions and a couple of mistakes here. A running car can deliver >100 amps, a car battery >60 amps. Either of these will easily fry wires on a system that is broke. The key here is "broke". If there could be a rectifier/regulator problem jumping a bike from a running car, then the same problem can occur jumping car-to-car. I started jump-starting cars and motorcycles around forty years ago. Unfortunately I have needed to jump-start my motorcycles (I had three) a couple times a year due to the lack of a battery tender. I agree that a bike probably doesn't need the addition of the car running. But, it shouldn't make a difference to a healthy electrical system. I stand by my statement "A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it" and I also think you guys do not understand what a load is. A load is a path of resistance between the positive and negative terminals of the power source. The higher the resistance, the less current flow (amps). A short is a path with very little resistance causing maximum current flow. A short will fry wires. A 6V bulb is a load on a 6V system and it is a short on a 12V battery. A good bike battery (even if it is discharged) is not a short and will not draw a bunch of current. 13.9V vs 13.3V is only half a volt and cannot develop enough current to damage a good regulator. BTW, why are you yelling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatonka Posted October 20, 2009 Share #17 Posted October 20, 2009 Funny, But we all know to hook up the cables to the "dead" battery first before hooking up to a power source or other battery and that we always have to hook them up + pole to + pole, right? And no sparks or fire by the dead battery because it could possible explode, right? Yeah, I hooked up the dead battery after hooking up the good battery a few times and never had a problem except once, when the battery exploded. It only took that once. Let's be safe folks. We also tell cagers not to telephone or SMS when driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 20, 2009 Share #18 Posted October 20, 2009 Let's be safe folks. Absolutely true . . . If you are uncomfortable, unsure, or just plain scared of your car or bike battery, let someone else take care of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camos Posted October 20, 2009 Share #19 Posted October 20, 2009 Yeah, I hooked up the dead battery after hooking up the good battery a few times and never had a problem except once, when the battery exploded. It only took that once. @GaryZ Tatonks was comfortable about hooking up his battery until it exploded just as you have been comfortable about doing the wrong thing for 20 years or so. You said: "I stand by my statement "A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it" and I also think you guys do not understand what a load is." and you are almost right. Unlike a 50w light, a dead battery will draw an unlimited load to the max output of the donor charging system. That includes drawing a load higher than it's internal connections can handle, ergo the exploding battery. You are standing on an erroneous assumption that some of us guys don't understand what a load is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradT Posted October 21, 2009 Share #20 Posted October 21, 2009 Hey Bart Welcome to the site and hope you get your problem figured out. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartvaughan Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share #21 Posted October 21, 2009 i put the wires back toghter and put new batt. in and it stated right up volt meter on dash shows about 14 volts but im still working out problems clutch was dry filled up the res but it dies when i put it to gear i think it neededs bleeding the fuse for the headlight was out i put on in it but then it would not start until i took the fuse out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryZ Posted October 21, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 21, 2009 @GaryZ Tatonks was comfortable about hooking up his battery until it exploded just as you have been comfortable about doing the wrong thing for 20 years or so. You said: "I stand by my statement "A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it" and I also think you guys do not understand what a load is." and you are almost right. Unlike a 50w light, a dead battery will draw an unlimited load to the max output of the donor charging system. That includes drawing a load higher than it's internal connections can handle, ergo the exploding battery. You are standing on an erroneous assumption that some of us guys don't understand what a load is. Wow. I did not dispute the possibility of exploding batteries. I clearly stated "healthy" electrical system and other similar stuff. Please go argue with someone else . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camos Posted October 21, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 21, 2009 Wow. I did not dispute the possibility of exploding batteries. I clearly stated "healthy" electrical system and other similar stuff. Please go argue with someone else . . . Well actually you didn't say that. I had my VR connected to my running Astro van for over 20 minutes yesterday while I was syncing the carbs. Sorry Camos, you are mistaken. The MC will only draw the power it needs from the running car, just like the cars' own battery. A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it . . . Quite clearly you made an incorrect and potentially unsafe statement with no qualifications so if anyone is arguing it appears to be you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBeaver Posted October 21, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 21, 2009 i put the wires back toghter and put new batt. in and it stated right up volt meter on dash shows about 14 volts but im still working out problems clutch was dry filled up the res but it dies when i put it to gear i think it neededs bleeding the fuse for the headlight was out i put on in it but then it would not start until i took the fuse out Good to hear. If I were you, I would still go ahead and test the stator via the resistance test. You can find a service manual on here somewhere that will give you the specs for the resistances you ought to read. If you have not yet gone through and cleaned the connectors and such that would be in order. The headlight fuse may have popped when you jumped it with your car, since you had no battery in your bike ().It is also likely that other fuses blew too. That is unless your headlight was out before you tried to jump it... As for the bike dying when you put it in gear - is your side-stand down when you do that? If you side-stand is up and it dies when you put it in gear how does it die? Is it an immediate cut out like someone flipped the engine cut off switch? or does it lurch forward and chug a little bit, then die? If it is an immediate cut out then you may want to check your side-stand switch (or put the side-stand up and try again if you have been doing this with it down). Anyways, I don't know that much about the 1st gens but these are the few things I would go ahead and check first. Hopefully someone else that knows a bit more about them can jump in and help out. There is a search function on the tool bar that may be of some help to you - also, if you have not found it yet there is a dedicated 1st gen technical area that has all sorts of good info. Good luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tx2sturgis Posted October 25, 2009 Share #25 Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) You and Camos are making many assumptions and a couple of mistakes here. A running car can deliver >100 amps, a car battery >60 amps. Either of these will easily fry wires on a system that is broke. The key here is "broke". If there could be a rectifier/regulator problem jumping a bike from a running car, then the same problem can occur jumping car-to-car. I started jump-starting cars and motorcycles around forty years ago. Unfortunately I have needed to jump-start my motorcycles (I had three) a couple times a year due to the lack of a battery tender. I agree that a bike probably doesn't need the addition of the car running. But, it shouldn't make a difference to a healthy electrical system. I have not made any mistakes here. I was talking about possiblities, and as I stated, it is POSSIBLE to fry the bikes systems, and thats especially true if something is 'broke'. But if the car is running, and the bike has a battery that is partially dischaged, bad things can happen. And actually a car battery can put out WAY more than 60 amps. Hence, the CCA numbers of 500 to 800 on the average car and light truck batteries. I stand by my statement "A charging system does not force current into a load, the load draws it" and I also think you guys do not understand what a load is. A load is a path of resistance between the positive and negative terminals of the power source. The higher the resistance, the less current flow (amps). This gets into semantics. But, electrical theory proves you wrong, on face value. emf ( electromotive force) is a term used to describe how the voltage is a type of 'pressure' that looks for a way to 'push' electrons 'thru' a load. The voltage source is 'active', and the load is 'passive'. If there is no EMF, or voltage, the load can't draw one single electron thru itself. I DO understand electrical therory, and am fully aware of what a load is, and how ohms law works. A good bike battery (even if it is discharged) is not a short and will not draw a bunch of current. 13.9V vs 13.3V is only half a volt and cannot develop enough current to damage a good regulator. Here you are incorrect. A relatively small motorcycle battery can be damaged, or exploded, if the charging source is not limited. Want proof? Hook up a truck battery charger set for 500 amps to a discharged motorcycle battery. Hint: RUN AWAY. The heat developed in a very short time will violently boil the electrolyte, and I dont recommend being within 50 feet or so of the experiment. BTW, why are you yelling? I'm not yelling. I use this font because I like it. BUT NOW IM YELLING. See the difference? Edited October 25, 2009 by tx2sturgis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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