Bearing in middle gear broke....why?

[Lug Nut]

1998 RSTC 40k miles. What would cause the middle gear bearing ring to break apart? Rode it 60 miles home and was fibe. Parked it, changed oil and filter added MMO to crankcase. Let idle 30 minutes to get everything hot (did not ride it). Started other maintenance and noticed a brake fluid leak under slave cylinder. So, I removed the middle cover and pieces of the bearing ring fell out. What would cause this?

[Flyinfool]

I have never heard of this happening, the only thing I can think of is it was a defective bearing.

 

Can you get pictures of the bearing and pieces that came out?

 

Are you sure it is the bearing and not something else coming apart?

[Lug Nut]

Pics....[

URL=http://s429.photobucket.com/user/sbojrab/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160503_144540_zpsqwxacpqc.jpg.html]http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq14/sbojrab/Mobile%20Uploads/20160503_144540_zpsqwxacpqc.jpg[/url]

 

Pieces that fell out...twisted metal. http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq14/sbojrab/Mobile%20Uploads/20160503_144530_zpsm490bbkw.jpg

[Flyinfool]

Those pieces are from the ball retainer, I originally thought you meant the outer ring of the bearing came apart.

 

I have seen a lot of ball retainers fail over the years. I never saw or heard of it in one of our bikes, but I have seen it on a lot of bearings in other applications. The 2 halves of the retainer are usually spot welded together in between each set of balls, it only takes one weak weld to start the failure in progress. Once one weld fails the next ones are under a much higher load and also soon fail, once it starts it all happens pretty quick.

 

I don't know if it can be done, but it almost looks like you could get that bearing out, and a new one in, without pulling the engine or splitting the case. Even if you can get the bearing out, you would need to put the jigsaw puzzle of bearing pieces back together to be sure that all of the parts are accounted for, any one piece that would be left in the transmission and found its way in between 2 gears would be a very bad thing.

[Lug Nut]

The part is cheap enough...about $45 for the bearing ring....55mm nut and some retaining clips....per the manual you don't need to split the case...guess I have another little project. I did get the exhaust issue figured out at least!

[edeas62]

Does anyone have a used CB antenna for a 2006 RSV. I had someone snap mine off while in a restaurant eating. I priced it at our dealership here in San Diego for 143.00. Im thinking someone may have upgrade and still had there old ones.

 

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[yamagrl]

The part is cheap enough...about $45 for the bearing ring....55mm nut and some retaining clips....per the manual you don't need to split the case...guess I have another little project. I did get the exhaust issue figured out at least!

I'm not too sure about that. The red arrows in the photo (item 6 in the breakdown) are pointing to the exact thrust washers that are the cause of the infamous second gear issue with the early 1st Gens. The middle gear has be placed in a hydraulic press in order to compress the huge spring on the middle gear so as to remove and replace those half moon thrust washers. I think you might have to remove those trust washers too, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

I'm afraid that if you remove the middle gear retainers and remove that big nut that you might not like what happens next.

 

So just let me check for you. I have an old middle gear out in my M/C shop/garage. Tomorrow or Saturday I will see exactly how it comes apart. I'll take a pic or two for you. I'll be able to determine if it can be done in place or not. Certainly, if it can be done in place that's what you would want to do.

 

Flyinfool what do you think??

 

Heather

 

 

 

 

 

[Flyinfool]

I have never been in there, I was just looking at the pictures posted here. that is why I said I don't know if it can be done. If you start to loosen that nut and retaining clips and the bearing is following them out, STOP, or that big spring is gonna get ya.

[yamagrl]

I've been researching this morning. I think the infamous thrust washer may very well prevent the spring from pushing everything out. But I won't know until I can take one apart in my shop.

 

I also think it may be nearly impossible to remove the bearing since it is kind of held very snuggly between the upper and lower case halves. But on a positive note there

is no "positioning pin" on this bearing like on the other two on the middle gear shaft.

[Lug Nut]

Thanks for the research! Talked to a buddy and he will help. We will take a stab at keeping the case intact and in the bike.

[yamagrl]

I separated the two main sections of the middle gear shaft. You will not have to worry about things popping apart.

 

I de-staked and put the bearing section into the vise and attempted to unscrew that big nut and zero luck. I couldn't turn it. But then I didn't "go on a mission" to get it off. I simply determined that it's on pretty tight.

 

Theoretically the bearing can be changed from the outside. But, I think you will be faced with two or three challenges:

 

1. The outer portion of the bearing is going to be pretty tightly squeezed into the case. This may prove to not be very problematic. You might be able to lessen the squeeze by de-torquing the case bolts in the immediate vicinity, being mindful to not actually break the seal of the case halves. But even if you do, an oil leak may not even occur or be minimal. Cross your fingers.
   
2. The nut may be very hard to turn and you may be exerting a pretty significant force on the gears in the transmission.
   
3. The bearing may be pressed on.
   

"Take a stab at it"

 

Here is a pic of the separated middle gear.

 

 

I'm not too sure about that. The red arrows in the photo (item 6 in the breakdown) are pointing to the exact thrust washers that are the cause of the infamous second gear issue with the early 1st Gens. The middle gear has be placed in a hydraulic press in order to compress the huge spring on the middle gear so as to remove and replace those half moon thrust washers. I think you might have to remove those trust washers too, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

I'm afraid that if you remove the middle gear retainers and remove that big nut that you might not like what happens next.

 

So just let me check for you. I have an old middle gear out in my M/C shop/garage. Tomorrow or Saturday I will see exactly how it comes apart. I'll take a pic or two for you. I'll be able to determine if it can be done in place or not. Certainly, if it can be done in place that's what you would want to do.

 

Flyinfool what do you think??

 

Heather

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by yamagrl

[Lug Nut]

Thanks a ton! I will make the attempt now that I know its at least possible.

[ChurchBuilder]

I know the bearing will move if the case bolts are loosened. When I replaced my 2nd gear my bearing was not flush with the case. I loosened the bolts and tightened the bearing plate. The plate pushed the bearing back flush.

I can't see how you can compress the middle gear spring without splitting the cases. I hope someone can figure this out though.

 

 

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[yamagrl]

I know the bearing will move if the case bolts are loosened. When I replaced my 2nd gear my bearing was not flush with the case. I loosened the bolts and tightened the bearing plate. The plate pushed the bearing back flush.

I can't see how you can compress the middle gear spring without splitting the cases. I hope someone can figure this out though.

 

 

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The spring does not need to be compressed for the procedure that he is hoping to be able to perform without spitting the case.

 

The middle gear in the above picture is only separated so that we could determine if that big nut could be loosened without the spring pushing everything apart.

[ChurchBuilder]

Yes, you are right. I just checked the old bearing I have in my garage. It looks like the bearing is pressed onto the middle gear. It would be hard to pull it off. Might be possible though.

 

 

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[Lug Nut]

So, for the purpose of removing and replacing the bearing....

 

I would loosen but NOT remove the 55mm bolt?

Crack loose the case nuts a little to allow some movement

I would have to totally remove the large plates that hold the bearing top and bottom

What would I do with the small half moon shims/thrust washers under the nut?

 

Thanks for all the input.....very much appreciated!

[ChurchBuilder]

I'll look again when I get home from work. Maybe get a picture of the disassembled pieces

 

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[yamagrl]

If it's possible to get the bearing out from the outside you will have to remove the nut. There is separator between the bearing and the gear. Compare the two photos below. The red arrow points to it.

 

 

 

[ChurchBuilder]

Yes, just pull the nut off. The spring is loaded against the split washer and a shoulder inside the middle gear. You might be able to pry somehow between the case and the inner part of the bearing

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160509/72b6e099b8241f5acedd356bc1298de0.jpg

 

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[Flyinfool]

OK, Just thinking out loud here.

 

Hopefully @ChurchBuilder and @yamagrl with their open parts can answer this.

 

For removal;

Loosen the case bolts in the area of the bearing, since the sheet metal ball cage is already broke, rip the rest of it out, slide all of the balls to one side of the bearing, you should then be able to get the outer race and balls out of the bore. Now you will have more access to pull the inner race off the shaft. From the above discussion it is my understanding that it is pressed onto the shaft.

 

The part that worries me.

What is taking the thrust load while you are pulling the press fit inner race off the shaft? Same for pressing the new bearing back onto the shaft?

Is all of that load on the bearing that is on the other end of the shaft? A high side load can ruin a ball bearing.

Is there some other part that will be getting a huge side load that was not designed for a huge side load? Something like a shift linkage, or small aluminum lip on the crankcase? Remember this will be pulling for removal and pushing for install.

 

Not trying to discourage you, but trying to see all of the variables before something else gets broke.

 

You also still need to be sure that there are no bits of the old ball retainer floating around in the trany, any bit of metal that finds its way between 2 gears under load can do a LOT of damage in just a split second.

[ChurchBuilder]

The load while pulling the bearing will be on the side of the case. I don't think that would be an issue. While pressing the bearing back on the load will transfer to the other side of the middle gear. (The side that is in line with the drive shaft).

I think the hardest part would be pulling the bearing off the shaft since there isn't much to get a puller on.

 

 

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[Flyinfool]

If I were doing this at my home I would disassemble the bearing to get the balls and outer race out of the way and then be able take measurements to make on the lathe, a puller cup that would grab the inner race by the ball groove then use a bearing puller to pull it off, this would put zero pressure on any other components.

 

For installing all I can think of is to make a tool that will put equal pressure on both the inner and outer races of the new bearing and then gently tap it on with a hammer. OUCH, did I just say hammer and bearing in the same sentence?????

[yamagrl]

Flyinfool,

I think you nailed it concerning the cage, balls and outer race.

 

I think I would cut the inner race on two sides with a Dremel, being careful to not go all of the way through and damaging the shaft. That's going to be the easy part. I saw something similar on YouTube about changing head bearings. Once it's cut almost through on both sides snap/pry it apart.

 

The hard part is going to be getting the new one on. I'm not sure it can be done so easily. Remember the spring? Which is more forceful; the spring or the force required to press the bearing back on? I don't know. It might just pogo you around.

 

Maybe the shaft can be frozen with liquid something. Maybe the inner race on the new bearing could be heated. Perhaps a drilled and tapped hole into the end of the shaft and some kind of bearing pusher be invented to draw the bearing on, such as a reverse flywheel puller.

 

I know it sounds like reaching for stars but then again ...who'd a thunk it anyway? Let's just get the old one off first.

 

ChurchBuilder, What do you think?

 

Heather

 

[yamagrl]

Another thought about putting it back on... How about that big nut? It might just force it on...

[Flyinfool]

As for putting it on.

MAYBE, if you were to screw some threaded rod into the 4 holes that hold those retainer clips, and then get a flat plat of steel with a hole pattern to match and a center hole just big enough for the shaft you could then progressively tighten those 4 nuts on the threaded rods to pull the bearing into place.