dynodon
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Posts posted by dynodon
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For what ever reason, or combination of all, my H/F Tag Along reduces my gas mileage 2-3mpg, best I can tell.
I get the same result with my 1800/Bushtec, about 2 mpg less.
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right, you didn't talk about handling, I didn't say you did. I didn't even mention that word. Shouldn't be any problem there, but handling or some sort of behavior was part of some of the other conversations, and if a trailer is getting disturbed by dirty air, it will "handle" different, it will move around, it will pull the motorcycle, even a heavy Wing, side to side, and up and down (as it hits bumps.)
Where am I arguing? I didn't argue, just comments.
My comment was about my experience with two different types of trailers. I didn't put any words in your mouth. Don't assume something that isn't there. So all is good...right?
As for the airplane thing, I don't believe anyone has talked about dropping trailers from a height. My comment was how an airplane would behave in dirty air (and OK, let's just say it is actually flying, not falling uncontrolled, like a trailer behind a bike is controlled, not falling) and I am hoping you can agree that the airplane will do better than a brick. or brick like airplane if you will. I can put a huge number of qualifiers on but let's just not go there. OK?
Best wishes, I am not arguing, you can if you want to, but I don't see the point. How about a civil discussion? It does happen here, just have to not read too much between the lines.
I will agree to disagree that it is aerodynamic drag...period (your words) that "mostly" causes fuel consumption to increase. I submit it is as much friction and increase in weight. of course this depends on the trailer towed. If you are towing one that is flying a billboard sideways (big side facing forward) sticking way out beyond the bike, then, OK, MOSTLY it would be aerodynamic drag hurting mpg. My opinion, you are welcome to yours.
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Sturgis, I would think that even in dirty air, a more "aerodynamic" trailer would still fare better than a brick, could be some odd interaction, but still, an airplane will behave better in dirty air than a brick!
I have no idea if anyone, even the manufacturer has done any wind tunnel tests on the Bushtec trailers, but I am 100% confident it will slip through the air better than some of the boxy trailers that sit much higher. Having towed both types myself, and having a few friends that have done so with both types, we all agree, that the Bushec or similar looking trailers behave so much better behind our bikes that there is no argument which we want to tow under any conditions. Not scientific, but real world results.
As for dirty air behind a motorcycle, I have felt it, but I don't ride 3 feet behind bikes at 70 mph for example. I doubt if many or even any riders other than racers have done this. So without wind tunnel testing, I will still go with there being less wind on a trailer 3 feet behind a bike, than anything 10-20 feet behind it. For sure motorcycle racers know and take advantage of drafting and although their bikes are much more aerodynamic than my Wing, and the Wing at legal speeds is much slower, the effect is still there.
Be fun to get some real world tests.
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I dont have a wind tunnel to verify this, but the much lower speeds of our bikes on the highway vs a racecar at 190 mph means that the 'drafting' effect is much less beneficial with an aerodynamically dirty bike pulling an aerodynamically dirty trailer. I have seen as much as a 25-40% drop in fuel mileage pulling certain trailers, sometimes in a crosswind, at highway speeds.
Sturgis, Agreed, and although you didn't say it, I would point out that I never said that the two (bike/trailer vs drafting on a race track) were the same, just that there was a similar effect.
The weight of the trailer has little effect, (within reason) and the rolling resistance of most of these units is pretty low. The extra fuel used is nearly all due to the aerodynamics of the combination.
Agreed also, again, within reason. I pulled a box trailer 24' that weighed about 4000 pounds, and when I put a 4000 pound car in it mileage didn't go down significantly but it did go down.
Some other smaller trailers dont effect the mileage as much, such as the small single-wheel trailer I built last year, and probably the small uni-go style trailers also.
agreed, and although I am not familiar with your homebuilt, I would bet the Uni-go has an empty and loaded weight almost half that of a regular trailer.
Trundling along at the modest speeds of 75 mph, the air behind a bike does have the time to cause vortices right behind the bike, and the trailer runs smack into that. The airflow behind a motorcycle is not clean, and the trailer bumps right into it. Its like the bike's motor has to overcome the dirty aerodynamics of TWO motorcycles. Most 2 wheel trailers have lots of parts poking out in the windstream: wheels, fenders, axles. It takes horsepower to push that stuff thru the air, even IF there was a motorcycle in front of it parting the air for the body of the trailer.
A bike does punch a pretty dirty hole in the air, but there is still a low pressure area behind it, especially just a few feet behind. I would hope you would agree that the wind on a small (I am thinking my Bushtec roadstar for example) motorcycle trailer is less when behind the bike, than if it could somehow just go highway speeds by itself. If you don't agree, that is OK, neither of us has a wind tunnel, maybe someone can find some test someone else has done?
At 190-200 mph, the aerodynamically superior NASCAR units dont allow much air to fill in behind the first car before the second car thats drafting it punches thru. Not so with our more modest speeds and less efficient airflow.
Again, agreed, never said they were the same.
Not taking any sides, just my 2
.No offense taken, your reply is appreciated.
Quoted your note so it would be easy to follow the answers.
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Wow it's tough dealing with a detail man... You must go back and reread each and every post for your material. I guess the oat comment must have offended you??
But since you brought the subject up. Do you want to explain to me your wisdom of comparing two cars...or more... with minimum ground clearance, drafting down a straightaway at 200+mph bumper to bumper, with the air lift effect on a motorcycle trailer, 12 to 14 inches off the ground being pulled down the road at 75+... 4 to 5 feet behind the bike. Common sense just might tell you they are not the same thing.
My first post was a friendly expression of an idea. Sometimes I get a little 'country' when trying to make them that way. Hence the oat comment about fuel consumption.
As far as sarcasism goes, you might look in the mirror. Your "Ever heard of NASCAR and drafting?" (sic), might just be interpreted as exactely what you were complaining about, and what I took offense to. Sorry but that's the way I respond when someone starts to get smart ass with me.
So... this is going to be my last post on this tread.. Take your best shot in your response. I'm out of here....
Well, since you love to quote and quote, and post sarcastic comments and such, your latest reply is just more of the same, so look in the mirror my friend! Yes, there is some comparison to NASCAR drafting and going down a highway at 60+ mph. You made the point that there is a LOT of air out there with your foot in the wind comment, so you can't now claim that there is no air effect when you tuck in behind something. Trucks do it all the time at 60 mph, and it makes a big difference. Hyper milers with their Prius cars and more know that you don't have to be just inches from the vehicle in front to get some benefit. A trailer, lower than the bike, about the same size frontal wise, and tucked just a few feet from it WILL have some draft benefit. If you can't see that, then too bad, but sometimes the truth hurts!
Oh, and I never said they were the "same thing". You asked where I got the Oat comment, I made a simple quote of your own words without comment or more sarcasm (what DO you have against NASCAR anyway) and your comment shows you didn't want to just talk, but argue.
As for sarcasm and where it started, I turn the mirror around to you. You made the comment about foot in the wind....you don't see any sarcasm there? Like you would expect an experienced rider to never know there was any wind out there? Well, I did respond in a kindly manner and with similar sarcasm, but you started it. Look at your own comments before you fire, you may find a misfire!
That's not my best shot, but a good one.
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Plus running at 80mph towing a trailer and the bike drinks fuel like a horse eating oats.....
there you go, your comment about Oats!
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It's never too much. Nothing like a good toe dip to keep things cool down there. You should try it sometime, it's never too late. It's refreshing..... At least we're off the sarcasm.. veiled threat thing.... Now about that oil???
Yep, good to be off the oat eating, NASCAR denying (Geeze), hot kitchens, more NASCAR and never too late dipping. Yep, you sure let the sarcasm go.:rotf:Been fun, it's your turn now.
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Geeze it was sarcastic... now it's a veiled threat.... Must be that NASCAR water...
Or maybe you been dipping your toe in the wind stream a bit much?
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see the problem is solved. Just watch those tires if you load the trailer heavy, don't let them overheat.
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Yea, good steaks get created in hot kitchens!
But nice veiled threat there! -
Geeze no... what's that????
You were only slightly more sarcastic than I was at your sarcastic comment about a foot in the wind.
Want to agree that you started the "obvious" and leave it at that? -
My hitch ball remains upright and coupler moves around a bit on the ball. It doesn't effect the ride one iota.....
My comment had nothing to do with the orientation of the ball, but the hitch itself, but I can see how you would take it another way. I have seen the entire hitch move around, side to side usually, but some aren't designed too strong up and down either. So the OP should make sure his hitch isn't giving some motion to the system.
The next time you're running down the road at 80+mph take your foot off the floorboard and let it drop down into the windstream. You'll find there's a lot more going on than you think. Why does the mpg drop so much when towing a trailer... It's called wind resistence. You can't have resistence unless you have wind. The trailer doesn't ride in a vacume. Plus running at 80mph towing a trailer and the bike drinks fuel like a horse eating oats.....
Yep, lots of wind out in the main windstream like when you stick your hand out to wave or stick a foot out. But the trailer is riding directly behind the bike. Not in a vacuum but certainly not in the full stream of air either.
Ever heard of NASCAR and drafting? Well, it does apply in this instance, the trailer is usually well within the size limits of a big bike. I know my Bushtec barely sticks out from the bags on my Wing. yes, there is still air hitting it, but nothing like sticking your foot or hand out into the main windstream!
As to why the MPG drops, well, it has to do with several things. First is just plain total weight. Takes more throttle to get it moving and even keep it moving. Second is friction from the tires/axles. Third or maybe tied with friction would be wind resistance. But for sure wind resistance isn't all of the MPG penalty, or even most of it.
My bike drops a lot of MPG running 80 vs 70 without a trailer, that is a basic rule of speed VS MPG on these big bikes and almost any vehicle. I am sure if I was to drive for a tank at 80 with the trailer, I would notice even worse mpg.
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I think tire pressure could have some effect on sway, if for no other reason than to cause bounce if people put too much pressure, or drag with one tire too low? maybe.
Aerodynamics on a small trailer following a rather large bike is probably minimal, but as mentioned, a large bag on top could upset airflow enough to cause some wiggle.
My Bushtec has the goldwing style spoiler on it, and even at 70-80 mph I doubt it has enough surface area to cause any downforce. I like it there for the extra light it provides!
One other consideration that I don't think has been mentioned is the hitch. How solid is the hitch? I have seen some that you can move side to side with your foot a LOT. A tiny bit of sway during a turn or bump, could turn into something dangerous if the hitch is moving around.
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don't use the tire pressure listed on the sidewall, that is usually the recommended MAX pressure for high speed/high load use. Most tires will have a much higher load capacity than you can put into a small motorcycle trailer. You want to check with the trailer MANUFACTURER on tire pressures for empty/loaded trailers, NOT the pressure on the sidewall of the tire. Also, unless otherwise stated, the pressures are COLD pressures. Check before taking off, and check after any big change in temperature outside.
For sway, again, check that you have at least 10% of total trailer/contents weight on the hitch ball. Example: trailer and contents weigh 300 pounds, then you need at least 30 pounds on the hitch. use a bathroom scale if necessary. Doesn't have to be exact, but should be close. Make sure your load doesn't shift a lot when moving. Also try to get the trailer level or slightly down in the front so loads don't shift back. If you have a cooler package, be sure to take into account anything you put in there. and as that empties, don't let tongue weight get light again!
Check the axle to make sure it is square with the frame and tight. Make sure the wheel lug nuts are tight.
The Piggybacker rides kind of high, try to load heavy stuff in the bottom of the trailer, light stuff up high.
Do you have anything on the top of the trailer? A rack with a bag? that can cause turbulence that can upset the aerodynamics and cause problems.
A good habit to get into is to check the tires and bearings on any trailer ANYTIME you stop. Make that the first thing you do before you head to the bathroom or whatever. Touch the tread and sidewalls of the tires, and touch the bearings sticking out of the wheel. Bearings should be cool or just lukewarm anytime, and tires should be warm to hot, but not hot enough to burn you. If anything is too hot, check it out or you could burst/melt a tire, or have a bearing lock up on you, and either could cause a wreck.
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I don't think the seafoam will do that, but about any internal combustion engine will put out a little puff of white/grey smoke when you get on it, especially after a bit of modest running all at the same speed. Just cleaning out the combustion chamber.
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good one, so what is the next target?
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there are two types of Arcus clouds. Shelf clouds and what you ran into, a roll cloud.
In my 64 years I could never remember seeing one, but last year I was riding North near Champaign IL and there was one all the way across the horizon from my left to right (W to E). It was about 90 degrees, and I thought I could get off at the next exit and maybe ride West under the cloud, but it moved south faster than I could move, as I approached the exit, the temp fell in less than a mile from 90 to about 65. Winds were picking up and vehicles going south in the other lanes were wet and swaying more and more. I got to the exit and the wind was wild. had to be 40+ and rising fast. I did a quick u-turn (in the cloverleaf) and at 80 mph went back south a couple exits, and this time did manage to get far enough West to cut through a small gap and get home.
Roll cloud for sure is what you had, and they are nasty!
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Good one! I had the solution, just forgot to go get the pic when I was out and about.
The go Kart track is something new, nice thinking on that one. Again, there is one in my area, just have to remember the contest when I go out. maybe I need to write a note, stick it on a wire wrapped around my head and hanging down in front of my eyes....mayb e then I would remember the target?
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I think maybe the best way to explain a crossover is a blending of two types of vehicle.
Think of it as SUV light. A car like vehicle that is made to serve some duty as a SUV.
May or may not have AWD, probably ride a bit higher than a car but not as high as a truck or SUV. Will be more boxy than a sedan or typical station wagon and probably shorter.
Hope that helps.
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ohh, ohh, ohh, I used to work at one just a few miles away. I can get this one, just have to be quick enough.
Don
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Man you guy's are tough.
How 'bout this
You, your bike and a gas pump
Happy hunting
Nope, My new Wing gets such good mileage I just stop by the refinery once a week to pump some gas BACK to them!
Hey, I am up for some tough targets, so I am waiting for the one that is: You and your bike, next to the working light on top of a 1000 foot tall TV tower! That should be easy!
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Many folks doing pgr parades next mo:whistling:nday.
Mike, good thought, but one problem, never seen a PGR flag line in a parade. Flags on bikes, but not the flag line.
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Problem with a PGR flag line is it isn't always right n ext to the bikes. Also, the flag lines are quite solemn occasions.
I haven't been able to get to a PGR event for some time, maybe the target should be reset for a more fun thing?
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Good one! set the next target!
.![:15_8_211[1]:](https://www.venturerider.org/forum/uploads/emoticons/1032973393_15_8_2111.gif.a6beda5601c872b5a86a839d02066c23.gif)
Oh, and I never said they were the "same thing". 
But nice veiled threat there!
Want to agree that you started the "obvious" and leave it at that? 
It's Gone...
in Watering Hole
Posted
I still have my '86 VR, but my 04 Wing was pretty good. I wanted something newer with
ABS and eliminated the Victory and Harley, and the Kawa just didn't trip my trigger. I also was hoping Yamaha would update the Royal Star, but I wound up getting a lightly used 2010 ABS 1800 wing. Couldn't be happier. For now I am keeping the VR for a standby, but may move it on. That old Vr still is almost as smooth as a Wing, and the suspension IMO is better than the wing, but overall, the 1800 is a great bike. I wasn't in love with the looks of the bags or the colors on the 2012, and didn't want to wait on some "maybe" new colors for 2013. But if they bring out a power windshield, and some great colors (gold, gold, and maybe bronze?) I might be tempted to trade.