GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Share #1 Posted June 10, 2019 Hoping I can get some help... Here's what has happened. - Got a rear wheel puncture... Flat as a pancake - Called the recovery people - No motorcycle specialist was available - A car recovery truck was sent - The chap put the bike on a car loader - He secured it like an ape... Pulling the handlebars out of position - The bike had to be 'ridden' to load and unload in the garage at home - I removed the rear wheel and got a new tyre - it was fitted as per the guide on this site - Took the bike out yesterday for a steady 'bed the tyre in ride' - Noticed the handlebars would move with no hands (which it didn't before) - In Left handers the bike was unsteady and the bars wobble slightly - Put more pressure (from 38psi to 42 psi) in the rear tyre thinking this could be an issue (front remaining at 37 psi as this has always felt fine) - checked steering head bearings the seem fine - Ensured rear wheel tracked true - No cupping on the front tyre This morning going round a left hand bend I nearly lost the bike, it felt like it was going to wash out from under me (foot off the foot peg, brown pants... Full scared out of my mind mode.. This wasn't a minor scare ha) - Could I have messed up putting the wheel back on? (spacers etc are all in the right place... However mounting was a pain (first time doing it) and it was tourqed to the correct spec) - Has the ape 'securing' the bike maybe damaged something in the front end? Whilst I know sometimes rear end issues can cause it to feel like the front has an issue... I'm 80/90% certain this is a front end issue. Any help would be much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrlinEngh Posted June 10, 2019 Share #2 Posted June 10, 2019 Glad that you stayed up on two wheels, Have had that same feeling a few times isn't any fun, What tires do you have on. If you put a bias ply on the back and have a radial tire on the front it can cause the feeling. It could be that the bearings in the triple tree may need to be tightened greased or replaced. How many miles on the front tire, I just replaced a good looking front tire that when going around a right turn you wanted both hands on the handle bar, it would feel like it wanted to skip out from under you and had a wobble feel. It wasn't cupped but before taking the tire off noticed a flat spot in the tire like it had did a long skid best I can explain it. Put a new tire on and it rides and handles like a dream again. I also had a bad tire pressure gauge that caused me months of grief after going threw everything I could think of to fix the handling it was telling me that the air pressure was 10 pounds more than what was in the tires, so if I was putting in 36 pounds I was only putting in 26 pounds. When you put the handle bars back did you get them centered so as not off a bit to onside or the other. Any new noise that you haven't heard before. Orlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #3 Posted June 10, 2019 Thanks for your reply They're both Avon front and back but I'll double check when I get home if they are they same type (pretty sure they are) the front was on when I got it in February and has 1017 date stamp so it's not old and has lots of tread.. I'll do a proper inspection... Although the bike felt fine prior to the puncture and new tyre I need a new pressure gauge for the car anyway so I'll pick one of them up on my way home Bars were put back centre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowrollwv Posted June 10, 2019 Share #4 Posted June 10, 2019 I would check the steering head for cracks. If he strapped the bike down with the bars he could have done some damage to the tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddlebum Posted June 10, 2019 Share #5 Posted June 10, 2019 What year is your bike @GrahamLFCkeeper ? For some reason the Avons have been known to cause the bike to wag like a dogs tail on many of the 1st gen Ventures. I myself, as well as others on the site have experienced this which seems to increase with speed sometimes coming on sudden like and as soon as the tires were removed and replaced with something else like Dunlops in my case the sensation went away. I too experiment with different tire pressures but with no luck, So went back to the dealer and he was kind enough to exchange them for the Dunlops. I am currently running Dunlop E3's front and back and the bike handles and rides like a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvmy40 Posted June 10, 2019 Share #6 Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) Anyone who will be trailering any bike anytime needs to watch this. I don't use the Tank Straps, but they are well worth the money. Edited June 10, 2019 by luvmy40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #7 Posted June 10, 2019 I would check the steering head for cracks. If he strapped the bike down with the bars he could have done some damage to the tree. After watching luvmy40 video... I'm now convinced he's done damage by strapping the bike from the handlebars (no travel in the suspension?) I'll have a good poke around when I get home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #8 Posted June 10, 2019 What year is your bike @GrahamLFCkeeper ? For some reason the Avons have been known to cause the bike to wag like a dogs tail on many of the 1st gen Ventures. I myself, as well as others on the site have experienced this which seems to increase with speed sometimes coming on sudden like and as soon as the tires were removed and replaced with something else like Dunlops in my case the sensation went away. I too experiment with different tire pressures but with no luck, So went back to the dealer and he was kind enough to exchange them for the Dunlops. I am currently running Dunlop E3's front and back and the bike handles and rides like a dream. It's a 2002 second gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted June 10, 2019 Share #9 Posted June 10, 2019 Not fun, sorry to read all this stuff you are going thru trying to get your scoot back up to "feeling" good Graham but am thankful you were survived riding the bike to a stop with a flat tire. The outcome of doing so doesn't always end as well! Thankfully you are ok. About the bike, I would: 1. Raise the bike, spin the back tire and watch the alignment line molded in the rubber on the tire to make sure the tire is fully seated on the rim. It is possible you are feeling a tire not seated properly. 2. While spinning the tire I would also watch the center of the tread carefully and look for movement side to side in the tread of the tire. I have purchased new tires (both car and bike) that were not belted properly in construction and had to be replaced with another new tire. 3. If I did not do the balancing myself, I would also look carefully at how much lead was used by the installer to rebalance = to much lead would prove to me that something was up at install. 4. I would double check myself on the axle reassembly. With the bike in the air, I would grab the tire and try to move it side to side looking for any play. I would double check my spacer sequence and probably loosen the axle nut and axle cinch bolt, retorqueing the axle nut and then resetting the cinch bolt after I knew for sure that the axle nut had pulled the bearing stacking shims/washers tight and into place and that there was no side to side movement as a result of me misplacing a shim/washer. 5. With tire cold I would inflate to max load pressure as stated on tire side wall. It is not that uncommon for untrained bike haulers to strap from the grips resulting in bars being folded down during hauling = is this what happended in your case? If so and your bike being a 2nd Gen with "normal" bars on it (perches rubber mounted on the top clamp of the triple tree that clamp down on the bars to hold them in check = I am assuming this as I have never actually had a 2nd Gen apart but have rebuilt/replaced many "normal" such arrangements on both dirt bikes and street bikes thru the years) I would: 1. Double check the perch assemblies on the top clamp to make sure they were not damaged. Any noticable movement between bars and triple tree when "shaking" the bars back and forth with the front wheel supported should be addressed as even a small amount of movement there can result in exactly the type of "feeling" you are experiencing. 2. When readjusting the bars to proper height I would double check the area under the top clamps on the bar surfaces to make sure all is well there and I would make sure when I retightened those clamps that I did so properly so the bars are seated tightly and on center. 3. I would double check the condition of the front tire making sure it was not damaged by what ever ruined the rear tire. 4. While looking at front tire for damage I would also look carefully at its wear factor and replace it if it is showing signs of wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #10 Posted June 10, 2019 Not fun, sorry to read all this stuff you are going thru trying to get your scoot back up to "feeling" good Graham but am thankful you were survived riding the bike to a stop with a flat tire. The outcome of doing so doesn't always end as well! Thankfully you are ok. About the bike, I would: 1. Raise the bike, spin the back tire and watch the alignment line molded in the rubber on the tire to make sure the tire is fully seated on the rim. It is possible you are feeling a tire not seated properly. 2. While spinning the tire I would also watch the center of the tread carefully and look for movement side to side in the tread of the tire. I have purchased new tires (both car and bike) that were not belted properly in construction and had to be replaced with another new tire. 3. If I did not do the balancing myself, I would also look carefully at how much lead was used by the installer to rebalance = to much lead would prove to me that something was up at install. 4. I would double check myself on the axle reassembly. With the bike in the air, I would grab the tire and try to move it side to side looking for any play. I would double check my spacer sequence and probably loosen the axle nut and axle cinch bolt, retorqueing the axle nut and then resetting the cinch bolt after I knew for sure that the axle nut had pulled the bearing stacking shims/washers tight and into place and that there was no side to side movement as a result of me misplacing a shim/washer. 5. With tire cold I would inflate to max load pressure as stated on tire side wall. It is not that uncommon for untrained bike haulers to strap from the grips resulting in bars being folded down during hauling = is this what happended in your case? If so and your bike being a 2nd Gen with "normal" bars on it (perches rubber mounted on the top clamp of the triple tree that clamp down on the bars to hold them in check = I am assuming this as I have never actually had a 2nd Gen apart but have rebuilt/replaced many "normal" such arrangements on both dirt bikes and street bikes thru the years) I would: 1. Double check the perch assemblies on the top clamp to make sure they were not damaged. Any noticable movement between bars and triple tree when "shaking" the bars back and forth with the front wheel supported should be addressed as even a small amount of movement there can result in exactly the type of "feeling" you are experiencing. 2. When readjusting the bars to proper height I would double check the area under the top clamps on the bar surfaces to make sure all is well there and I would make sure when I retightened those clamps that I did so properly so the bars are seated tightly and on center. 3. I would double check the condition of the front tire making sure it was not damaged by what ever ruined the rear tire. 4. While looking at front tire for damage I would also look carefully at its wear factor and replace it if it is showing signs of wear. Thanks for this... I'll go through all these steps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoarizona Posted June 10, 2019 Share #11 Posted June 10, 2019 Last thought. Grab the forks with the front wheel off the ground and try to twist them or move them forward and back. Let's hope when the idiot tied the bike down hard, that he didn't damage the forks or seals.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted June 10, 2019 Share #12 Posted June 10, 2019 Thanks for this... I'll go through all these steps ANother thought here Graham,, there is a spacer that goes between the inner bearing race on the wheel bearing located between that race and the rear end that it mates to. Numerous members have found that spacer missing upon install with many of those members ending up having to go back to the tire mounter to retrieve the spacer that fell out of its location when the tire was being mounted and ended up on either the tire machine or on the floor in the shop. Not to confuse matters brother but that little spacer has caused more than one puzzling issue after tire mounting.. Just something else I thought might be a consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #13 Posted June 10, 2019 Last thought. Grab the forks with the front wheel off the ground and try to twist them or move them forward and back. Let's hope when the idiot tied the bike down hard, that he didn't damage the forks or seals.... I'll check, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #14 Posted June 10, 2019 ANother thought here Graham,, there is a spacer that goes between the inner bearing race on the wheel bearing located between that race and the rear end that it mates to. Numerous members have found that spacer missing upon install with many of those members ending up having to go back to the tire mounter to retrieve the spacer that fell out of its location when the tire was being mounted and ended up on either the tire machine or on the floor in the shop. Not to confuse matters brother but that little spacer has caused more than one puzzling issue after tire mounting.. Just something else I thought might be a consideration. Ah yes, I noticed this when loading the wheel into the car (it fell out) I kept double checking when re mounting the wheel that it was still there ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #15 Posted June 10, 2019 [quote=cowpuc;1062394 4. I would double check myself on the axle reassembly. With the bike in the air, I would grab the tire and try to move it side to side looking for any play. I would double check my spacer sequence and probably loosen the axle nut and axle cinch bolt, retorqueing the axle nut and then resetting the cinch bolt after I knew for sure that the axle nut had pulled the bearing stacking shims/washers tight and into place and that there was no side to side movement as a result of me misplacing a shim/washer. I'm now starting to doubt if I did this correctly (not a bad thing) so I think this will be the first thing I check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted June 10, 2019 Share #16 Posted June 10, 2019 There is a spacer on the right side. It has a shoulder on it. If you put it in backwards, it will allow the wheel to slightly move back and forth. I did it once and the rear tire would actually rub when it moved to the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted June 10, 2019 Share #17 Posted June 10, 2019 There is a spacer on the right side. It has a shoulder on it. If you put it in backwards, it will allow the wheel to slightly move back and forth. I did it once and the rear tire would actually rub when it moved to the right. EXACTLY and GOOD POINT brother:thumbsup:!! On the 1st Gen there is spacer that sets into the outer wheel bearing seal that the rear brake caliper butts up against that has to be installed correctly so its raised shoulder matches the wheel bearings inner race (raised shoulder facing inwardly), then there is a shim/flat washer that goes between the caliper face that faces outwardly toward the swingarm that you must make sure is in place when you slide the axle in, the raised shoulder of the axle rests against this shim and the shim becomes part of the alignment stack that ultimately gets pressed against the inside face of the rearend when you tighten the axle nut. I am not sure why I didnt video the complete shim stacking in the video below (maybe one of us should reproduce a full and complete version of this as getting those shims/spacers in incorrectly (or not at all) seems to be a stumbling block for many of us = myself included:missingtooth:. While I am not sure if this is exactly the same as on a 2nd Gen (shoulda made a vid like this when I helped @videoarizona swap out a rear tire on his 2nd Gen a while back,, RATSSS,, missed another GOOD opportunity ) I have a hunch that it is.. Graham, take a look at the following vid, start at 14:25 on the time line and watch to the end. Does this look familiar/similar to your application? If so, notice the spacer/shim in the wheel that the caliper rests against? I believe that is the spacer that Don is speaking of (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong here @Freebird). That spacer has a raised shoulder on it that faces inwardly toward the wheel bearing that matches the inner race of the bearing. The flat surface of that spacer faces outwardly and meets/contacts the caliper when it is installed. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddlebum Posted June 10, 2019 Share #18 Posted June 10, 2019 ANother thought here Graham,, there is a spacer that goes between the inner bearing race on the wheel bearing located between that race and the rear end that it mates to. Numerous members have found that spacer missing upon install with many of those members ending up having to go back to the tire mounter to retrieve the spacer that fell out of its location when the tire was being mounted and ended up on either the tire machine or on the floor in the shop. Not to confuse matters brother but that little spacer has caused more than one puzzling issue after tire mounting.. Just something else I thought might be a consideration.The spacer has also been mounted on the wrong side of the caliper support. Check your rotor and see that it properly centered to the caliper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patch Posted June 10, 2019 Share #19 Posted June 10, 2019 Hoping I can get some help... Here's what has happened. - Got a rear wheel puncture... Flat as a pancake - Called the recovery people - No motorcycle specialist was available - A car recovery truck was sent - The chap put the bike on a car loader - He secured it like an ape... Pulling the handlebars out of position - The bike had to be 'ridden' to load and unload in the garage at home - I removed the rear wheel and got a new tyre - it was fitted as per the guide on this site - Took the bike out yesterday for a steady 'bed the tyre in ride' - Noticed the handlebars would move with no hands (which it didn't before) - In Left handers the bike was unsteady and the bars wobble slightly - Put more pressure (from 38psi to 42 psi) in the rear tyre thinking this could be an issue (front remaining at 37 psi as this has always felt fine) - checked steering head bearings the seem fine - Ensured rear wheel tracked true - No cupping on the front tyre This morning going round a left hand bend I nearly lost the bike, it felt like it was going to wash out from under me (foot off the foot peg, brown pants... Full scared out of my mind mode.. This wasn't a minor scare ha) - Could I have messed up putting the wheel back on? (spacers etc are all in the right place... However mounting was a pain (first time doing it) and it was tourqed to the correct spec) - Has the ape 'securing' the bike maybe damaged something in the front end? Whilst I know sometimes rear end issues can cause it to feel like the front has an issue... I'm 80/90% certain this is a front end issue. Any help would be much appreciated Because you worked on the rear you must recheck the assembly take your time to regain your confidence in that she is back together smartly. My take on the highlight above, front forks! Does she mush like before this all happened? If so is it a smooth motion as you push the forks down, brake on bushing down? Can you feel any height difference sitting straight up on her? Finally if it proves not to be the rear work you did? Then I would check the forks and air lines for hydro lock. This will make you feel you need to ride her straight up thru curves or she feels like she want to drop when leaned over! If so that's the front forks! Patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #20 Posted June 10, 2019 Quick update I've rechecked and re torqued everything It looks exactly like the pictures here http://www.venturers.org/Tech_Library/?action=article&cat_id=002014&id=323 There seems to be a small amount of movement in the wheel when it's spinning. I can't tell if it's just been balanced badly or there's a bigger problem (or would that be normal with an unloaded wheel?) No movement at stand still when I push and pull on the wheel Tea break time ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV1100SE Posted June 10, 2019 Share #21 Posted June 10, 2019 There is a write-up in the read only tech section on checking the steering head tightness. Lift the bike and turn the steering head 45 degrees to one side and let go. If it moves, the steering head needs to tightened. The write up describes this method and how to tighten. This is a simple test and a good way to rule it out...or in. Have you ever replaced the bearings in the steering head? Possible damage with the strapping down? Or it pulled enough to put the head into a "loose" condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #22 Posted June 10, 2019 There is a write-up in the read only tech section on checking the steering head tightness. Lift the bike and turn the steering head 45 degrees to one side and let go. If it moves, the steering head needs to tightened. The write up describes this method and how to tighten. This is a simple test and a good way to rule it out...or in. Have you ever replaced the bearings in the steering head? Possible damage with the strapping down? Or it pulled enough to put the head into a "loose" condition? That's my next step... Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #23 Posted June 10, 2019 Because you worked on the rear you must recheck the assembly take your time to regain your confidence in that she is back together smartly. My take on the highlight above, front forks! Does she mush like before this all happened? If so is it a smooth motion as you push the forks down, brake on bushing down? Can you feel any height difference sitting straight up on her? Finally if it proves not to be the rear work you did? Then I would check the forks and air lines for hydro lock. This will make you feel you need to ride her straight up thru curves or she feels like she want to drop when leaned over! If so that's the front forks! Patch Thanks for this... Bike rode fine before all this happened.. No height difference... I'll look into the front end if it turns out the back is OK... Thank you again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted June 10, 2019 Share #24 Posted June 10, 2019 On a side note, on the 2nd gen if they strap down the handlebars chances are very likely they are bent!!! Had that happen to me when my bike got trailer-ed home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamLFCkeeper Posted June 10, 2019 Author Share #25 Posted June 10, 2019 Not the best quality but you can just about see the wheel wobble... Does anyone know if this is just out of balance? Or something else? Or maybe even normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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