snyper316 Posted October 25, 2017 Share #26 Posted October 25, 2017 A picture is worth a thousand words, so when I get it apart I will post some pics of the dogs and the washer.Good cuz I do know the venture or site has it it's just I can't blow up the pictures big enough to see them Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaj1917 Posted October 25, 2017 Share #27 Posted October 25, 2017 Another option is to put in a trans from a 2nd gen and then do the V-Max rear end. This combination will get you lower engine RPMs cruising down the highway and a lower first gear for better hole shots or getting a trailer or 2 up moving more easily. Those that have done this have been very happy with it. I am looking for a Vmax rear I can snag cheap. Yes, when repairing failed 2nd gear on my '84 I bought a used '89 transmission on eBay and installed most of its parts in my bike. One must be cautious doing that though. You must retain your original middle gear components, otherwise, you'll run into gear lash issues unless you're prepared to reshim things, and that ain't for the faint of heart - trust me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted October 25, 2017 Share #28 Posted October 25, 2017 Another option is to put in a trans from a 2nd gen and then do the V-Max rear end. This combination will get you lower engine RPMs cruising down the highway and a lower first gear for better hole shots or getting a trailer or 2 up moving more easily. Those that have done this have been very happy with it. I am looking for a Vmax rear I can snag cheap. Bar none,, that right there is exactly what I would do if I were ever to undertake the tranny repair/update on a MK1.. Fool is spot on here,, I know that @VenturousRandy has also done a lot of figuring on the gear ratio's and also knows exactly what you would end up with percentage wise (up and down) by doing this.. As I understand it, the drop in gear ratio is significant enough in 1st gear that idling around in the woods at a snail's pace in 1st is much easier if your into such nonsense. Yep,, this is the direction I would head iffen I was gonna rip er all apart like you got goin Johnny.. Either way though,, LOOKING GREAT THERE = all the best in a good outcome with high anticipation for a great 2018 ride season brother!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snyper316 Posted October 25, 2017 Share #29 Posted October 25, 2017 2nd gen trani can fit? So vmax hub assembly is all I would need... I am chasing an annoying oil leak.... And would rather keep my bike with 2nd gear... Where do I find write up? Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #30 Posted October 26, 2017 Another option is to put in a trans from a 2nd gen and then do the V-Max rear end. This combination will get you lower engine RPMs cruising down the highway and a lower first gear for better hole shots or getting a trailer or 2 up moving more easily. Those that have done this have been very happy with it. I am looking for a Vmax rear I can snag cheap. Not sure how I missed this post, but I did. I was considering the swap with a newer trans but wasn't sure on the details and also the added cost. Never heard about the Vmax swap but that will need consideration also. I will do some more digging and see what I can come up with. If someone else has already done it, that makes it much easier. Probably just a matter of rounding up the parts. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #31 Posted October 26, 2017 Here are a couple of pics of the gear dogs. The first pic shows two gears both with dogs. The red arrows point to the dogs. The darker gear to the left will slide to the right when shifting I believe into 4th and the gear dogs then mesh and make up the drive ratio. The second pic shows another set of gears, the one on the right has the gear dogs and the one on the left has cutouts where the dogs can engage the gear. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #32 Posted October 26, 2017 Here are a couple of pics showing the location of the thrust washer and the thrust plate (2 pieces). Also is the diagram showing the location. The first pic show the area of the washer, red circle with arrow. The second pic is taken from the end showing the thrust plate. Third pic is after the thrust washer and thrust plate have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #33 Posted October 26, 2017 Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with the 2nd gear is wear with the thrust plate and not the washer? Also the grove in the shaft can wear. Is this correct. Here is a pic of my thrust plate showing some wear. The thrust washer doesn't show any signs of wear. Also all the gears and gear dogs look very good, no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #34 Posted October 26, 2017 Also just to be clear 1st gen is 83-93 and 2nd gen is 99-13? So when looking for a newer transmission I am still looking for a 1st gen bike but the later years 86-93 after this issue was fixed at the factory. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted October 26, 2017 Share #35 Posted October 26, 2017 While my "M.O." has always been to by em missing 2nd gear and short shift em out to 2 or 3 hundred thousand miles so I have never actually had one down as far as you have yours Johnny (I commend you though, looking good there) I may have an answer to your question here.. Looks to me like it is actually both the washer and the plate you want to replace to be sure and also check that shaft groove very closely. I have done many other bike trannies in the past and if it were mine, I would also check those 2nd gear dogs and engagement window edges closely too.. Also the shift forks for wear (be surprised how people like to rest their toe on a shifter when they ride).. Anyway,, here is what I found in some of my accumulation of paper work.. Hope this helps!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowpuc Posted October 26, 2017 Share #36 Posted October 26, 2017 Also just to be clear 1st gen is 83-93 and 2nd gen is 99-13? So when looking for a newer transmission I am still looking for a 1st gen bike but the later years 86-93 after this issue was fixed at the factory. Is this correct? Yep,, you are on to it!! 1st Gen Mk 1 = 83 thru 85, 1st Gen Mk2 (no clam shell bags and other small changes including different drive shaft length but same tranny) = 86 thru 93, 2nd Gen = 99 up and have the bat wing fairing. The "gear ratio change" 2nd Gen tranny swap you hear about is ONLY applicable for certain years of the 2nd Gen's I believe.. That may only apply to the RSTDs even (the ones that have no fairing - cruisers with V-4's they made from 96 up but not sure. If you are interested in doing a total tranny swap so you get the different ratio's we will need to rattle some chains here and get a good guru so you can be sure and get the parts your looking for.. If you are going to just rebuild back to stock = yes, 86 to 93 1st Gen MK2 parts should work as far as I know. Also, if you look at the pics I posted - take note on the model number pic - notice the VIN number on the bottom one being stated? I think that "1413" at the end of the VIN is the last of the bad thrust washer business that caused 2nd gear failure. That simply means if you are looking at an 85 and the VIN is higher than that number = your good to go on the tranny issue.. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted October 26, 2017 Share #37 Posted October 26, 2017 The real issue is the thrust washer material was too soft. Replace it regardless of how nice it may look now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #38 Posted October 26, 2017 Yep,, you are on to it!! 1st Gen Mk 1 = 83 thru 85, 1st Gen Mk2 (no clam shell bags and other small changes including different drive shaft length but same tranny) = 86 thru 93, 2nd Gen = 99 up and have the bat wing fairing. The "gear ratio change" 2nd Gen tranny swap you hear about is ONLY applicable for certain years of the 2nd Gen's I believe.. That may only apply to the RSTDs even (the ones that have no fairing - cruisers with V-4's they made from 96 up but not sure. If you are interested in doing a total tranny swap so you get the different ratio's we will need to rattle some chains here and get a good guru so you can be sure and get the parts your looking for.. If you are going to just rebuild back to stock = yes, 86 to 93 1st Gen MK2 parts should work as far as I know. Also, if you look at the pics I posted - take note on the model number pic - notice the VIN number on the bottom one being stated? I think that "1413" at the end of the VIN is the last of the bad thrust washer business that caused 2nd gear failure. That simply means if you are looking at an 85 and the VIN is higher than that number = your good to go on the tranny issue.. Make sense? Makes perfect sense cowpuc, thanks for the clarification on the terms. I just wanted to make sure I am on the same page with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #39 Posted October 26, 2017 The real issue is the thrust washer material was too soft. Replace it regardless of how nice it may look now... Makes sense, thanks for the input, I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share #40 Posted October 26, 2017 I wanted to thank everyone for their input, I appreciate any help I can get on the project. After thinking about this for the day and doing some research I decided to let the bank account make the decision. Yes it would be great to go all out and do a trans swap with the gen2 and the vmax rear hub upgrade. That is probably the best way to go if the funds are there, but realistically they aren't there. I don't want to have a half assembled bike waiting on the funds to finish it. So the smart choice although maybe not the best is to stick with the repair as Yamaha had specified in their bulletin and just go with the washer replacement. I'm a little let down, but the bike is low miles and I don't see any wear other than the thrust washer so I don't see why this will not meet my needs. I ride pretty easy and won't be abusing the trans so this repair should last for a long time. Thank again for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Dan Posted October 26, 2017 Share #41 Posted October 26, 2017 Also Cutting the Dogs a little in you original Tranny would insure a long lasting fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 27, 2017 Author Share #42 Posted October 27, 2017 Also Cutting the Dogs a little in you original Tranny would insure a long lasting fix. I'm assuming that would need to be done by a machine shop? Would this just be for second gear, and would both the gear with the dogs and the gear it engages need to be cut? It would make sense that both gears would need to be cut so they match. Would it be cheaper and, or maybe better to purchase a set of gears from a newer model 86-93? I don't necessarily want to cut any corners, but looking at the overall project I need to save where I can and make smart choices. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaj1917 Posted October 27, 2017 Share #43 Posted October 27, 2017 I'm assuming that would need to be done by a machine shop? Would this just be for second gear, and would both the gear with the dogs and the gear it engages need to be cut? It would make sense that both gears would need to be cut so they match. Would it be cheaper and, or maybe better to purchase a set of gears from a newer model 86-93? I don't necessarily want to cut any corners, but looking at the overall project I need to save where I can and make smart choices. Thanks! For my money, I'd just buy a new 2nd gear wheel for about $100 or so. It's a thicker more robust version than the original. It's all you need, aside from thrust washers. A '86+ trannie will have that upgraded wheel but will likely cost more than $100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 27, 2017 Author Share #44 Posted October 27, 2017 For my money, I'd just buy a new 2nd gear wheel for about $100 or so. It's a thicker more robust version than the original. It's all you need, aside from thrust washers. A '86+ trannie will have that upgraded wheel but will likely cost more than $100. That's the info I was looking for. I wasn't sure if the later models had the wider gear. Thanks for the suggestion and info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 28, 2017 Author Share #45 Posted October 28, 2017 Found a used transmission out of an 87 model with just over 14,000 miles on it. Got a deal at $75 plus $20 to ship. Cheaper than fixing the one I have as long as there are no issues. Now I can sell mine, probably not for much, but any little bit helps with the budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaj1917 Posted October 28, 2017 Share #46 Posted October 28, 2017 Good news. Make sure you retain all your original middle gear components, otherwise you'll get into gear lash/shimming issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share #47 Posted October 29, 2017 Good news. Make sure you retain all your original middle gear components, otherwise you'll get into gear lash/shimming issues. So it's not as easy as swapping out a complete transmission, including the drive and driven assemblies from the 87? I was hoping to drop in both assemblies from the 87 and sell the one's from the 83. I should have known it wouldn't be quite that easy. haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaj1917 Posted October 29, 2017 Share #48 Posted October 29, 2017 Right. Keep all the components pictured from your original transmission. Shims #20 and #9 are unique to each transmission and ensure a proper "fit" of those helical cut gears. Speaking of shim #9 - there is usually more than one. When reassembling the cases, be careful, it's easy to damage these shims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted October 29, 2017 Author Share #49 Posted October 29, 2017 Right. Keep all the components pictured from your original transmission. Shims #20 and #9 are unique to each transmission and ensure a proper "fit" of those helical cut gears. Speaking of shim #9 - there is usually more than one. When reassembling the cases, be careful, it's easy to damage these shims. Yep that makes perfect sense, the same as shimming the pinion on an automotive rear end. I wasn't thinking of the gears going to the driveshaft as the important part of the swap. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycyclone Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share #50 Posted May 10, 2018 Well, after a long winter I am finally back out in the garage. I'm splitting time between two projects and this one won't get quite as much time as I would like, but the goal is to spend at least one evening a week working on it. I did manage to get the two halves of the engine back together and have started the cleanup. This engine had lot's of leaks over the years and so there is more to clean. I'm also making some progress on the heads. I pulled the valves, cleaned them up, then lapped them to the seats. I finished them up by installing new seals. One head is done and I will start working on the other one next week. Here are a couple of pics for the week, hopefully we can keep them coming over the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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