flyday58 Posted May 7, 2015 Share #1 Posted May 7, 2015 So this thread be about brakes. I'm the dummy they used to create the game "Stump the Dummy" so I'm no help. But several of youse guys are pretty dang clever and have done this on your bike(s). Could someone come up with a mostly-inclusive article for the tech library on the brake upgrade for 1st Gens? There's a wealth of experience on this, and a quit search opens up a Pandora's Box of everything involved. Obviously it would help new members to have a one-stop place to go, and also peeps like me who have delayed doing the mod due to dumping money into other areas of the bike. The article could start with how much has to change if you're contemplating the upgrade, options like ss brake lines, delinking the brakes, R1 vs R6 calipers, swapping of forks and rotors, progressive spring upgrade, 14mm master (not even sure what that is. See? Stump the dummy!!), fork oil options, anti-dive options. It may take a collaboration and that might be why there isn't an article for this. I ain't pointin no fingers, just sayin... I think it would be an invaluable source for brake info on our scoots. Then maybe eventually SOMEONE could tackle Vmax head swaps, final drive upgrades, all as tech articles. Savvy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted May 7, 2015 Share #2 Posted May 7, 2015 I think you are actually asking for a bunch of separate articles. Many of the upgrades that you have mentioned can and often are done as single upgrades without all of the others being done. To try to put all of that into a single tech article would be copying half of the service manual. There is a Pandora box full of info already out with much discussion on the pros and cons of each of the upgrades individually that you have mentioned. Each of those upgrades are not for everyone some love it and some hate it. What is important to me may not make any difference at all to the next person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patch Posted May 7, 2015 Share #3 Posted May 7, 2015 Perhaps a glossary like "proven Gen1 upgrades" where one can look up mods with a brief description of the benefits, with links to get started? Take the Vmax head mod for ex. at a glance what are the benefits, and where would we find the posts to get started? I know the answer, do a search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted May 7, 2015 Share #4 Posted May 7, 2015 I don't think it's a bad idea but on the other hand, it's not that hard to find specific articles in the Read Only Technical Libraries. A glossary would certainly add to it and I'm not against it, just not sure that I will take the time to do it. Are you volunteering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patch Posted May 7, 2015 Share #5 Posted May 7, 2015 I don't think it's a bad idea but on the other hand, it's not that hard to find specific articles in the Read Only Technical Libraries. A glossary would certainly add to it and I'm not against it, just not sure that I will take the time to do it. Are you volunteering? Not sure if I am the intended target to your question? I could look into to what it would involve; problem with me is I think fast, walk fast, ride faster, spell slow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyday58 Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted May 8, 2015 I guess those are the main issues - all of this info is available through a diligent search, and most of us are just too dang busy and want to ride in our scant few hours of down time. I get that. I also agree that I mentioned quite a few mods tied together under one post, and they would probably be better served separated out by themselves. Interesting thoughts, guys. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted May 8, 2015 Share #7 Posted May 8, 2015 OK MK1 brakes are lacking for sure. There is a reason they improved them with the MK2! The caliper bolt spacing is different between the two so you have to replace your front forks, and before the new forks are installed it is a perfect time to replace your old worn out springs with better performing progressive springs. Now the MK1 uses a hydraulic anti dive solenoid as opposed to electric solenoids on the MK2. The hydraulic solenoids rob hydraulic power going to the brakes. As far as R1 vs R6 there is no difference. Going the R1 route, you want the Gold capped ones over the Blue ones as the pistons in the Gold ones are coated aluminum which won't rust or corrode! The 14mm vs 5/8 in master cylinder bore size is a 2nd gen issue, although I suppose you could strap them on the handlebars just as easy... The last upgrade would be to replace your rubber brake lines with Stainless Steel lines which do not expand as easy. The expansion of the rubber lines robs hydraulic power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted May 8, 2015 Share #8 Posted May 8, 2015 Bob I am not sure what year they changed but the earlier 1st gens had a 1/2" front master and at some point they changed to the 14mm front master. You want the 14mm if you are going to de-link. I did not know that the 2nd gens have a 5/8 front master, that is bigger yet, and I may look into that and see if it will mount to my 88. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted May 8, 2015 Share #9 Posted May 8, 2015 Bob I am not sure what year they changed but the earlier 1st gens had a 1/2" front master and at some point they changed to the 14mm front master. You want the 14mm if you are going to de-link. The front master cylinder bore changed in 1986 when the MKII brake calipers (four pistons) were adopted. The MKI (two piston caliper) front brake master cylinder are all ½". So anyone that wants the MKII brake calipers on their MKI should consider, in addition to swapping front forks to accomodate the MKII calipers (or R1/R6 calipers), swapping the front brake master cylinder from the MKII onto their newly updated MKI brake system, even if you don't delink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose68 Posted May 9, 2015 Share #10 Posted May 9, 2015 The front master cylinder bore changed in 1986 when the MKII brake calipers (four pistons) were adopted. The MKI (two piston caliper) front brake master cylinder are all ½". So anyone that wants the MKII brake calipers on their MKI should consider, in addition to swapping front forks to accomodate the MKII calipers (or R1/R6 calipers), swapping the front brake master cylinder from the MKII onto their newly updated MKI brake system, even if you don't delink. I just did the front end up grade. Well Squid did and I helped lol. I have an 84 Standard, my question is the master cylinder from an 86 and up a direct bolt on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted May 9, 2015 Share #11 Posted May 9, 2015 I just did the front end up grade. Well Squid did and I helped lol. I have an 84 Standard, my question is the master cylinder from an 86 and up a direct bolt on? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patch Posted May 9, 2015 Share #12 Posted May 9, 2015 Newbei question, from 86 up is there advantage to decoupling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted May 9, 2015 Share #13 Posted May 9, 2015 That is kind of like asking what is the best oil, or tires. There are people that are very passionate on both sides of the discussion. I did the delink because twice in the same area, my yard, the grass was wet and when I touched the rear brake the front wheel locked and down I nearly went. You never want to touch the front brake on a slick surface, with the linked brakes you have no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patch Posted May 9, 2015 Share #14 Posted May 9, 2015 That is kind of like asking what is the best oil, or tires. There are people that are very passionate on both sides of the discussion. I did the delink because twice in the same area, my yard, the grass was wet and when I touched the rear brake the front wheel locked and down I nearly went. You never want to touch the front brake on a slick surface, with the linked brakes you have no choice. I know it is often on my mind, as to how short stops would be effected? Would you say front end dive changed for you- with regards to city driving? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted May 9, 2015 Share #15 Posted May 9, 2015 I noticed no difference in dive during any type of braking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great White Posted May 10, 2015 Share #16 Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) The front master cylinder bore changed in 1986 when the MKII brake calipers (four pistons) were adopted. The MKI (two piston caliper) front brake master cylinder are all ½". So anyone that wants the MKII brake calipers on their MKI should consider, in addition to swapping front forks to accomodate the MKII calipers (or R1/R6 calipers), swapping the front brake master cylinder from the MKII onto their newly updated MKI brake system, even if you don't delink. Good to know. I can tuck away the master cylinder from the junker 86 I just took apart for my 83 when I do the R1 brake change. That gets a couple more bucks of use out of, what i am officially christening, "The Pile". Edited May 10, 2015 by Great White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted May 11, 2015 Share #17 Posted May 11, 2015 Before you put it away, take it apart and check the bore. I went thru a bunch of them trying to find one that was not pitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great White Posted May 11, 2015 Share #18 Posted May 11, 2015 Before you put it away, take it apart and check the bore. I went thru a bunch of them trying to find one that was not pitted. Sure will. "The Pile" is one neglected collection of parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgyverit Posted May 11, 2015 Share #19 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) so if you take a mkII frt m/c and mount it on a mkI bike, does it have the same wiring as the mkI for the light hook-ups? Edited May 11, 2015 by mcgyverit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted May 11, 2015 Share #20 Posted May 11, 2015 so if you take a mkII frt m/c and mount it on a mkI bike, does it have the same wiring as the mkI for the light hook-ups? Use the MKI brake switch in the MKII master cylinder/reservoir assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great White Posted May 11, 2015 Share #21 Posted May 11, 2015 so if you take a mkII frt m/c and mount it on a mkI bike, does it have the same wiring as the mkI for the light hook-ups? A quick glance a the 83 and The Pile (86) revealed the same number and location of wires on each. I did not, however, compare the wiring connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgyverit Posted May 11, 2015 Share #22 Posted May 11, 2015 I was looking on ebay at some of the mkII sets and notice that the connectors on the end of the II were different. but according to PH above it sounds as though the leads can be switched out. anyone experience at this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted May 11, 2015 Share #23 Posted May 11, 2015 A quick glance a the 83 and The Pile (86) revealed the same number and location of wires on each. I did not, however, compare the wiring connectors. The 1983 front brake switch has two wires, whereas the 1986, with cruise control should have four wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great White Posted May 11, 2015 Share #24 Posted May 11, 2015 The 1983 front brake switch has two wires, whereas the 1986, with cruise control should have four wires. Yessir, you are quite correct. A closer look revealed The Pile brake switch has 4 wires at the connector. I only quickly looked while breaking it down and noticed the wire bundle sheaths, not the connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted May 11, 2015 Share #25 Posted May 11, 2015 I was looking on ebay at some of the mkII sets and notice that the connectors on the end of the II were different. but according to PH above it sounds as though the leads can be switched out. anyone experience at this ? Just swap the brake switch from the MKI to the MKII master cylinder. The float switch wires are the same on either MKI or MKII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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