Steering nut tightening questions....

[1BigDog]

Need some proper info on tightening the steering nut such as torque specs, procedures, etc. I installed new races and bearings top and bottom. Im attempting to install the tree and, following the shop manuals tightening procedures, it just seems to be a bit off. It calls for tightening the nuts to 37 ft lbs but when I tried that it tightened up well before it even would have clicked, which it didnt. The whole tree was way too stiff and hard to turn.

Now, just to clear stuff up: the races are fully seated, bearings are fully greased with Honda Moly 60 and im using the machined spacer that SkyDoc sold a while ago to replace the rubber "washer".

 

So, any suggestions?

[V7Goose]

I am not looking at the manual right now, so I cannot quote it exactly or tell you where you missed it, but the correct procedure to seat new tapered bearing (such as steering head or auto wheel bearings) is to tighten them first to a relatively high torque (probably the 37 ft lbs you reference), then to back the ring nut completely off and re-tighten it to correct final torque, which is very, very low (probably something like 4 lbs). As I recall, this procedure is specified in the shop manual.

 

When you put the second ring nut on, follow the procedures exactly or you will over tighten it and squish the rubber washer out. And do not forget to properly torque the cap nut before you put the handlebars back on - 94 ft lbs. This is what locks the ring nuts.

 

Finally, do remember to re-check the proper adjustment on those bearings in 5,000 miles or so - often new races will seat some more after they are put into service. That is why most of these bikes have loose steering heads well before 10,000 miles (not because the ring nuts move).

Goose

Edited August 25, 2011 by V7Goose
correct cap nut torque

[V7Goose]

I just went and checked the manual - the procedure you should be following is on page 3-45. And final torque is only 2.2 ft lbs - you will need an inch lb torque wrench to do it properly.

Goose

[Guest]

I am not looking at the manual right now, so I cannot quote it exactly or tell you where you missed it, but the correct procedure to seat new tapered bearing (such as steering head or auto wheel bearings) is to tighten them first to a relatively high torque (probably the 37 ft lbs you reference), then to back the ring nut completely off and re-tighten it to correct final torque, which is very, very low (probably something like 4 lbs). As I recall, this procedure is specified in the shop manual.

 

Yes, the manual does say tighten it to 37 ft lbs then a secondary tightening of 2.2 lbs but it didnt feel right considering how many typos there are in the factory manual.

 

When you put the second ring nut on, follow the procedures exactly or you will over tighten it and squish the rubber washer out. And do not forget to properly torque the cap nut before you put the handlebars back on - 97 ft lbs. This is what locks the ring nuts.

 

Im using a machined spacer, the one that Sky Doc sold a while ago to replace that rubber washer, which is one of the reasons why im seeking some additional advice. Just want to make sure its done right the first time.

 

Finally, do remember to re-check the proper adjustment on those bearings in 5,000 miles or so - often new races will seat some more after they are put into service. That is why most of these bikes have loose steering heads well before 10,000 miles (not because the ring nuts move).

Goose

 

Goose, if these races seat themselves any further then the steering neck has fallen off....LOL

 

Kent, thanks for the quick response. Now I can get back downstairs and do it right.

 

Oh yea, by the way. If you recall the post a while ago about me using my air compressor to add air to the forks, since disassembling my forks for rebuild I now realize why it was such a bad idea. Even though I got away with it, probably by the skin of my teeth, since I have now seen the innards and its working design I can understand it better now. I just added the air using a HD pump which I have borrowed and it worked great.

Live and learn.....Thanks again.

 

[V7Goose]

I know nothing about replacing the rubber washer with any sort of metal spacer, and I cannot imagine any value from such a thing. but I CAN imagine potential harm.

 

The rubber washer's job is to simply keep the ring nuts from rattling around on the shaft. The lower ring nut controls the load on those bearings, so exact position is important. Then it is held in place by the tab washer that ties the upper ring nut to the lower ring nut. So the key to the whole thing is what prevents the upper ring nut from moving?

 

Nothing but the very high pressure of the top plate pushing hard on the upper ring nut (that's the 94 ft lbs of torque on the cap nut). The reason the rubber washer is there is to prevent any possibility of the upper ring nut being pushed down on the threads hard enough to push the lower ring nut harder against the bearings. If you put any sort of a metal washer in place of the rubber washer, you have fouled up the whole design because any downward movement or flex of the upper ring nut will be immediately transmitted through the lower ring nut to the bearings.

 

I imagine the risk is low, but do make sure to double check the bearing tightness after the cap nut is fully torqued.

Goose

[saddlebum]

Just my humble opinion, but will doing the initial 37 ft/pd preload torque, I always felt it wise to rotate the handle bars back and forth while turning the nut, to make sure the bearings seat or preload properly. Then back off and set your final torque.

[Guest]

This washer mod has been around for a while, since 2004 I believe. It was supposed to be done to eliminate the rubber washer which can break down over time and loosen up the steering. What I do remember now is that the replacement metal washer needed to be scuffed to hold the upper nut in place better. But I do understand your description of the workings here. Since im not in any rush to complete this project I could go ahead and order the rubber washer.

 

Maybe Sky Doc can chime in here since he was selling these washers.

[Guest]

Goose, sent you a PM. Please tell me your opinion....Thanks

[Gearhead]

Yammy used the rubber-washer design in many bikes, and Goose has described it's design intent to a tee! There has long been sentiment among Vmax and Venture owners, that the rubber washer somehow made the bike more susceptible to front-end wobble, the kind that first appears on decel from about 40 mph. Supposedly replacing it with a metal washer so everything could be tightened down against everything else improved the situation. I don't believe it.

 

There is also a popular sentiment here that the bearing preload actually needs to be much higher in order to prevent this same wobble. With all due respect, I don't believe that either, as I have tried it without success. A bearing is not a damping device. I digress a little, but I have concluded that full-dress machines are prone to this wobble phenomenon, and it is related to front tire wear. My dad and I have both had the same experience, he with his Voyager and me with my Venture. Overtightening the bearings did not reduce the wobble that was present on my Venture at that time, but a new front tire kills it, for a while.

 

All that to say, use the factory procedure, as Goose said. And as Saddlebum said, rotate the bars back and forth. Then reapply the 37 ft-lb in case something moved, and turn the bars again. Then back off and apply final torque.

 

Jeremy

[Guest]

After listening to the opinions here I have decided to go ahead and order the rubber washer. Thanks to all for their help.

[V7Goose]

This washer mod has been around for a while, since 2004 I believe. It was supposed to be done to eliminate the rubber washer which can break down over time and loosen up the steering. What I do remember now is that the replacement metal washer needed to be scuffed to hold the upper nut in place better. But I do understand your description of the workings here. Since im not in any rush to complete this project I could go ahead and order the rubber washer.

 

Maybe Sky Doc can chime in here since he was selling these washers.

What's wrong with your original rubber washer? Based on the function I described, I see no possibility that an old rubber washer (provided it is not falling apart) would not do the job 100% as well as a new one. In fact, if I happened to loose that washer, I would happily take any old tire tube and just cut a new one. Like I said above, that rubber washer performs absolutely no locking function; it simply isolates the lower ring nut from any downward pressure of the upper ring nut.

 

Now a few comments about instability and proper steering bearing adjustment. I STRONGLY advise anyone who does not have brand new steering bearings just installed to check their adjustment using BOTH methods. By both, I mean the way shown in the manual (pull/push the forks forward and back by holding near the axle), as well as the side-swing/no bounce method that most people prefer. Unfortunately, the pull/push method takes a gentle touch and some experience to know just what you are trying to feel. Sometimes a buddy lightly resting his hand on the back of the upper tree and the steering neck together will detect the motion from bad or maladjusted bearings before the tester will.

 

The reason doing BOTH checks is important is because in most cases the side-swing test will not tell you if the bearings are damaged! Riding for very long with the steering bearings too loose will damage them by continually pounding the rollers into the exact same spot on the races. The side-swing check is great for getting the bearing preload just right, but bearings with this kind of damage will still feel perfect when moved in such a small arc. If the bearings are good, when they have the right amount of preload for the side-swing to just go to the steering stop, the pull/push test will also feel solid.

 

But it is very common for me to properly adjust head bearings in older bikes and then still feel slop when pulling on the bottom of the forks, showing they are bad. This happens because the races develop more wear in the front and back than they do on the sides due to the forward motion of the bike and the forces applied to the wheel and forks. So when you tighten the bearings, the side rollers begin to apply pressure on the races before the slop is taken up in the front and back of the race. No amount of adjustment will ever make the bike handle properly until the bearings are replaced.

Goose

[Guest]

What's wrong with your original rubber washer? Based on the function I described, I see no possibility that an old rubber washer (provided it is not falling apart) would not do the job 100% as well as a new one. In fact, if I happened to loose that washer, I would happily take any old tire tube and just cut a new one. Like I said above, that rubber washer performs absolutely no locking function; it simply isolates the lower ring nut from any downward pressure of the upper ring nut.

 

Goose

 

The original rubber washer was trashed a few years ago when I tried the replacement metal washer. Now that im thinking about it the front end never felt "right" afterwards if you know what i mean. It performed well, but you know when something just dont feel "right". Never had that feeling before with the rubber washer.

[allwx]

Yammy used the rubber-washer design in many bikes, and Goose has described it's design intent to a tee! There has long been sentiment among Vmax and Venture owners, that the rubber washer somehow made the bike more susceptible to front-end wobble, the kind that first appears on decel from about 40 mph. Supposedly replacing it with a metal washer so everything could be tightened down against everything else improved the situation. I don't believe it.

 

Jeremy

 

I don't believe it, either. The decel wobble around 40 mph is present on other bikes, too. It had been present on just about every bike I've ever owned, large and small. That is why I seriously doubt that it is anything other than a tendency of the design. The arms and hands on the grips act as a dampening device. As long as I keep my hands on the grips during decel, I get no hint of wobble. Take the hands off, wobble most of the time, not all the time, so there are other factors, too, like uphill, downhill, road surfact, etc).

 

I usually snug my head bearings up just a slight hair tighter than spec. This makes the bike a little harder to handle in slow speed maneuvers, like parking lots, but it makes it a good deal more stable in straight line and sweepers, IMO. Most importantly, to me, it makes the front end a lot less tending to wobble with hands off the bars, which I prefer because I like riding for long stretches not having to keep my hands on the bars. Cruise control, after all.

[Guest]

Got the forks mounted and all torqued up to specs. No side to side slop. Very nice, smooth movement all through the arc range.

 

Thanks again for all the input. Ya learn something new every day.

[allwx]

Today I finished doing maint on my front end. This included pulling the steering shaft out of the frame and repacking the bearings. The bike has 23k miles on it, and is a little over 3 years old (07 model). I was surprised at how little grease was present on the bearings. All they had on them was a thin film. I'm glad I did this when I did. The book calls for a repack every 16k miles, which I've felt is too often. Maybe they are stingy with the grease at the factory. I'll do this again in around 20k and see what they look like then.

 

I got the ringnut tool from Dingy, and had no problme getting the bottom ringnut torqued to 37 lbs/ft, but I don't have a small torque wrench that can measure the tiny second torque, and can't afford one just now, so I did what I alwyas do, which is to just snug it up until the front end "feels" right to me. Test ride tomorrow.

[Gearhead]

For the small torque value for preload I use a short ratchet (4") and a fish scale. 3 ft-lb is 9 lb on the scale.

 

Jeremy

[allwx]

Hmmm, fish scale. I'm no fisherman, so I'm imagining what this thing looks like and how it works. I'll keep this in mind. In the meantime, I've developed a pretty good sense of how tight to make the ringnut and have it be right. I nailed this time for sure. I've put 400 miles on the bike since doing this work (tires, steering service) and it is perfect. No hint of decel wobble at 40 mph, and I sure tried to get it to wobble today. A lot of that could be the front tire, maybe older tires tend to wobble more than newer ones, I don't know. Thanks for the idea.

[Guest]

Actually, the 2.2 ft lbs of torque (or 26.400 in lbs) was inadequate. It was way too sloppy. I did the final adjustment by feel and the free play is perfect.