Condor Posted April 28, 2011 Share #1 Posted April 28, 2011 Has anyone here swapped out the gears from a V-Max final with a 2ndGen final, and if so is it much of a hassle? Second. Is the stud in the V-Max final for the left shock easily removable? Here's the deal. I have spares of each and thought I'd swap out the gears and have a low geared RSV final, and a sellable high geared V-Max final to offset some of the costs, and I'll still have the original on the '99 to keep as a spare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted April 28, 2011 Share #2 Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) There is a shim in the rear end that comes in varying thicknesses. When you change a gear set out to another case, this shim may need to be changed. In the parts fiche it is called WASHER,THRUST UR 22U-46118-00-xx (five different sizes, 12,14,16,18,20). Attached is a picture of a 99 RSV final drive, call out #18 Gary Edited April 28, 2011 by dingy attached picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted April 28, 2011 Share #3 Posted April 28, 2011 I've never done it. I understand, but don't know for sure, that is takes some special tools to properly set the backlash and etc. Just not something that I wanted to tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uechi kid Posted April 28, 2011 Share #4 Posted April 28, 2011 Can't you just swap out the whole unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted April 28, 2011 I've never done it. I understand, but don't know for sure, that is takes some special tools to properly set the backlash and etc. Just not something that I wanted to tackle. I might not either, that's why the questions. On the backlash, I wonder if plasti-gauge could be used to check engagement depth?? Also wonder what the special tool(s) could be??? I don't want to screw anything up either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted April 28, 2011 Share #6 Posted April 28, 2011 Can't you just swap out the whole unit? Only if you do some machining. The VMAX drive does not have the hole machined for the speed sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted April 29, 2011 Share #7 Posted April 29, 2011 Here is the 99 RSV service manual section on the rear drive adjustment. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted April 29, 2011 Share #8 Posted April 29, 2011 Yea, I remember looking at that now. Just not something I cared to tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted April 29, 2011 If the entire gear train were swapped out from one housing to another, and the backlash were OK in the original housing, what would cause the BL to go out of adjustment if the housing are machined within tolerances.... ?? Although it would be nice to swap them out, I do have another V-Max final that has the shock stud lopped off, and would work on a 1stGen Venture. Maybe a little machining for the speed sensor might be an option to fit it to a 2ndGen??? Thank's for the .pdf's.... They helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted April 29, 2011 Share #10 Posted April 29, 2011 Well, I'm in no way an expert on these things but my thinking is that "within tolerance" does not mean they are the same and that is why they take shims of various thicknesses to get the correct backlash. If they were all the same and the tolerances that exact, then all the shims would be the same also. Yes, if you were to machine the housing on the VMAX drive, it should work. There was somebody here who had done that but I don't remember now who it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted April 29, 2011 Share #11 Posted April 29, 2011 Jack, sounds to me like you wanna blow away some 1st gen's .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted April 29, 2011 Share #12 Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) Gear backlash is a very precise setting. Every gear housing and related part is machined to within a given tolerance or it would be rejected. The problem comes up when parts are selected that are within tolerance, but one is at low end of tolerance and other is at high end. A common term in engineering for this is Tolerance Stack Up. A tolerance on a given part may be stated at 1.000" +/- .002". This means that parts from .998" to 1.002" are acceptable. What this means is if you have two adjoining parts that are dimensioned as the above example shows, the final dimension for the two parts could be from 1.996" to 2.004", now a variation of .008". This wide off set is statistically small in a given set of parts, most part stack ups will fall in the center of the desired stack up range, this is refered to as a bell curve distribution. The ideal setting for backlash would be calculated at all involved tolerances being machined to the optimal dimension. This is not practical though in a production setting. Factors such as tool sharpness are one that figures into tolerances that can be held. Tolerances can be held to almost any desired set point. The cost rises with increasing precision though. At one point I worked at a GM wheel bearing plant. They bored the bearing races, then ground them, then honed them. This allowed extremely close tolerances, but added significant machining processes. In this case the high precision was required for the wheel bearing, these were not a shim-able assembly. Even the ball bearings were measured precisely, so every bearing had balls in it within microns of each other. The way to compensate for tolerance variations is through the use of shims or different size bearings when parts are assembled. In the case of the engine blocks, the machined bores are individually measured after machining and the cases marked. Same is done with cranks & rod journals. These numbers are used to select the proper bearing from about 7 different sizes. The middle drive gear is also shimmed. this is due to tolerances in block machining as well as the housing for the middle drive, as well as the cuts on the gears. The shim in the final drive is adjusted to take up the variance of at least three parts, one is the ring gear, second is the pinion gear and third is the drive housing, which probably has two or more involved surface tolerances. Gary Edited April 29, 2011 by dingy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingy Posted April 29, 2011 Share #13 Posted April 29, 2011 Jack, sounds to me like you wanna blow away some 1st gen's .... I don't think the man is delusional, He does show as owning five 1st gens. He is well aware of the limits of the 99. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted April 29, 2011 Share #14 Posted April 29, 2011 I don't think the man is delusional, He does show as owning five 1st gens. He is well aware of the limits of the 99. Gary How about it Jack... are you or are you not delusional? nahhhhhhhh ... forget that ... I know the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted April 29, 2011 Share #15 Posted April 29, 2011 The Shock-Stud in the Vmax Housing is dismountable. Just use a Vise Grip or put it in a Vise and turn it out. But the Thread (btw M10x1.25) has to be closed somehow, as the Hole goes all the Way through the Housing allowing Final Drive Lube to come out if the Stud isn't there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share #16 Posted April 29, 2011 The Shock-Stud in the Vmax Housing is dismountable. Just use a Vise Grip or put it in a Vise and turn it out. But the Thread (btw M10x1.25) has to be closed somehow, as the Hole goes all the Way through the Housing allowing Final Drive Lube to come out if the Stud isn't there anymore. Thanks Squeeze. Wasn't sure if it was press fit or threaded. Yep, if it isn't plugged up it'd let all the dark out.... The older V-Max Final has the stud hack sawed off. Not a bad job, but still not good. May have to drill, and use an easy out. Not delusional although I do halucinate occassionally. I've noticed that the '99 goes just as fast... maybe even a little faster... then the '91.... when coasting down a long grade in neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezyRider Posted April 29, 2011 Share #17 Posted April 29, 2011 Well, I'm in no way an expert on these things but my thinking is that "within tolerance" does not mean they are the same and that is why they take shims of various thicknesses to get the correct backlash. If they were all the same and the tolerances that exact, then all the shims would be the same also. Yes, if you were to machine the housing on the VMAX drive, it should work. There was somebody here who had done that but I don't remember now who it was. That was Pegscraper. I ended up trading a stock rear end to him for the modified one (long story) and ran it on my 99.....which I then sold last year to a guy from Chicago. Don't think he ever joined here. Anyway, Lynn (Pegscraper) can give you more info on what is required, but it does work. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hulign Posted April 29, 2011 Share #18 Posted April 29, 2011 This is way up on my list of mods so if anyone does get the info please post it for all to grab. Thanks Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted April 29, 2011 That was Pegscraper. I ended up trading a stock rear end to him for the modified one (long story) and ran it on my 99.....which I then sold last year to a guy from Chicago. Don't think he ever joined here. Anyway, Lynn (Pegscraper) can give you more info on what is required, but it does work. Joe Joe, Do you know if he did the gear swap himself?? I did talk to the folks who did Freebird's and they shot me a trade/offer involving them keeping the RSV gears and V-Max housing. After thinking about it it's sounding better and better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezyRider Posted April 29, 2011 Share #20 Posted April 29, 2011 Joe, Do you know if he did the gear swap himself?? I did talk to the folks who did Freebird's and they shot me a trade/offer involving them keeping the RSV gears and V-Max housing. After thinking about it it's sounding better and better. He didn't actually swap the gears, he had a vmax rear machined so that he could use it on his Royal Star. I have msg'd him and gave him a link to this thread. Maybe he'll chime in here.... Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegscraper Posted April 29, 2011 Share #21 Posted April 29, 2011 Freezy has it, but it looks like you guys have all the information anyway. Indeed, long boring story. The one I traded to him was machined by a friend of mine as I didn't have a mill then. I've gotten a mill since then and have machined out two VMX gear housings myself. I don't swap the gears themselves as that requires expensive tools I don't have and don't really need. I took a stock VMX rear gear and machined the blank boss out for the speedo sensor and also pulled the shock bolt out. Buying and modifying a VMX rear gear and selling the stock one let me basically break even. I have virtually no money in the thing, the only way I would do it for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share #22 Posted April 29, 2011 Freezy has it, but it looks like you guys have all the information anyway. Indeed, long boring story. The one I traded to him was machined by a friend of mine as I didn't have a mill then. I've gotten a mill since then and have machined out two VMX gear housings myself. I don't swap the gears themselves as that requires expensive tools I don't have and don't really need. I took a stock VMX rear gear and machined the blank boss out for the speedo sensor and also pulled the shock bolt out. Buying and modifying a VMX rear gear and selling the stock one let me basically break even. I have virtually no money in the thing, the only way I would do it for myself. Lynn- I sent you a PM, and then went to look at a 2003 Venture final. Wow!! That hole's bottom edge comes close to the worm gear. Did you pull the worm out before drilling?? If not it's definately above my skill level. Maybe do-able if it comes out. Especially getting the sensor hole within tolerances so it won't leak. I didn't measure the opening and not sure if it's even a standard MM?? Looks to be about 25mm...?? But a drill bit may not even work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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