Absolutely Unimpressed with Balancing Beads

I put on a new Dunlop E4 before we went to Colorado and noticed out there that at interstate speeds I had a bad vibration. My local dealership told me to put in one ounce of beads which seemed a little shy to me so when we got back I bought another ounce and put them in the tire. Still the same bad vibration right about at 80. We took all the old weights off and everything. Should I run 3oz of tire beads or should I just get is balanced by a pro? Its a little dangerous and DEFINITELY SCARY going at those speeds. And I'm someone who finds himself at 80, or 100, or 120 ALOT!!! Heres a video of it. Sorry I couldn't get the video straightened out

First I have to say I am not that brave or flushed with $$ to run that fast. But according to this site you should have 2oz of beads. But there is a disclaimer you should read on that page also. If by some chance getting the amount of beads sorted out dont fix it, I would look into a delaminated tire. OR maybe spin 180 on wheel. Beads should balance it no matter, but it could be such a spot in tire it be overcome. Is the "dot" lined up with the valve stem?

The amount of weight needed has to be enough to balance the tire. There is no set amount. I'd look the tire over really well making sure it was round and no lumps and if it looks okay, I'd add another ounce of beads.

Oh, did it help when you added the second ounce?

First I have to say I am not that brave or flushed with $$ to run that fast. But according to this site you should have 2oz of beads. But there is a disclaimer you should read on that page also. If by some chance getting the amount of beads sorted out dont fix it, I would look into a delaminated tire. OR maybe spin 180 on wheel. Beads should balance it no matter, but it could be such a spot in tire it be overcome. Is the "dot" lined up with the valve stem?

There is no dot on this one! There is a little white chalk mark which may have come from the tire or the guys who put it on. Ive been looking at the tire closely as well, but it doesn't seem to me have any rough spots or cupping and it runs super smooth at 60

The amount of weight needed has to be enough to balance the tire. There is no set amount. I'd look the tire over really well making sure it was round and no lumps and if it looks okay, I'd add another ounce of beads.

 

Oh, did it help when you added the second ounce?

I think it maybe raised the bad part of the vibration another 5 to 10mph. I'd hate to break the bead again and throw another ounce in. This will be like 27 dollars worth of beads at this point!!! I contacted Dunlop, we'll see what they tell me I suppose.

I got a stamp scale maybe i should just buy a pound of the fleet beads??

https://www.zoro.com/dyna-beads-tire-balancing-beads-16-oz-fleet/i/G7478344/?msclkid=b2d9c93662d4102f22019216192e2fb9&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA_US&utm_term=4581733672894334&utm_content=Auto%20%26%20Truck%20Maintenance&gclid=CIL2kd7Gz9sCFSygZQodonwOdQ&gclsrc=ds

Wholy crap!! $27 bucks in beads? Where you buying them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tire-Balancing-Beads-BUY-IN-BULK-10-oz-min-Medium-size/263707557857?hash=item3d6631ffe1:g:TWMAAOSw9mFWNTOC Actually I think the guys I have got mine from on e-bay is checkered flag or something like that.

As a counterpoint to your experience and some faith that the beads do work...I offer this:

When I lost my nearly new rear tire to a nail 2 weeks ago in Michigan, I replaced the tire with a Shinko 230 Tourmaster and 2 oz of beads. I was doubtful they would work, but the guy at the shop was adamant they would...and he's known @cowpuc most of his life. Well....after a week of running the roads back home...I can say that they do work. Thanks cowpuc for your expertise and muscle!!

So...that said. I would recommend you break the bead again and check the rim...make sure it's clean. Then make sure the outer rim where the weights went is clean as a whistle too. Then take the tire with a few pounds of air and try to do a static type balance....2 benches and your axle should work. The idea is to get the tire as close to neutral as can be had. Without the red dot to match the valve stem...this is going to be a chore. Once close...the beads will do their thing....

Wholy crap!! $27 bucks in beads? Where you buying them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tire-Balancing-Beads-BUY-IN-BULK-10-oz-min-Medium-size/263707557857?hash=item3d6631ffe1:g:TWMAAOSw9mFWNTOC Actually I think the guys I have got mine from on e-bay is checkered flag or something like that.

Local stealership...

As a counterpoint to your experience and some faith that the beads do work...I offer this:

 

When I lost my nearly new rear tire to a nail 2 weeks ago in Michigan, I replaced the tire with a Shinko 230 Tourmaster and 2 oz of beads. I was doubtful they would work, but the guy at the shop was adamant they would...and he's known @coupuc most of his life. Well....after a week of running the roads back home...I can say that they do work. Thanks cowpuc for your expertise and muscle!!

 

So...that said. I would recommend you break the bead again and check the rim...make sure it's clean. Then make sure the outer rim where the weights went is clean as a whistle too. Then take the tire with a few pounds of air and try to do a static type balance....2 benches and your axle should work. The idea is to get the tire as close to neutral as can be had. Without the red dot to match the valve stem...this is going to be a chore. Once close...the beads will do their thing....

Its go this mark:think: I cant wipe it off like tire chalk so maybe this replaced the dot. I'll pull the tire next time im at dads. Its real smooth at 65

The shop were I work we used to use glass beads a lot but have stopped and resorted to a wheel spin balance machine. We found although they did often work there were quite a few cases were they did not. Why I have no idea although we did notice if the air put in the tire had moisture in it the beads would kinda bunch up. In the end we did find the wheel balance machine resulted in far fewer comebacks when it came to vibration issues. My suggestion dispense with the beads and get a proper tire balance performed. BTW you would have to make sure all the beads are removed from the tire.

Oh and also I checked my E4 tires and did not find any marks at all with regards to locating the valve stem.

The shop were I work we used to use glass beads a lot but have stopped and resorted to a wheel spin balance machine. We found although they did often work there were quite a few cases were they did not. Why I have no idea although we did notice if the air put in the tire had moisture in it the beads would kinda bunch up. In the end we did find the wheel balance machine resulted in far fewer comebacks when it came to vibration issues. My suggestion dispense with the beads and get a proper tire balance performed. BTW you would have to make sure all the beads are removed from the tire.

 

Oh and also I checked my tires and did not find any marks at all with regards to locating the valve stem.

All other arguments pro and con aside I've always wondered why Yamaha, Honda etc. spend money balancing tires at the factory if they could get away throwing a hand full of what is essentially sand in the tires. Presumably their engineers have a problem with that.

If beads don't work and it runs perfect at 60mph, I would be looking into something that might be setting up a vibration. Doesn't seem to me to be a tire imbalance, I would think there would be some indicator at 60.

If beads don't work and it runs perfect at 60mph, I would be looking into something that might be setting up a vibration. Doesn't seem to me to be a tire imbalance, I would think there would be some indicator at 60.

I mean if there is a vibration at 60 its slight enough I cant feel it over our normal Nebraska roads. That's why I contacted Dunlop. I had a shinko on the front previously, one of the cheapest tires I could find and had very recently ridden on that same tire over 120 once and over 100 several times with absolutely no shake. Now I'm afraid to go 90! I may have assembled something improperly, and I guess I'll find out when I take this tire off again!

The shop were I work we used to use glass beads a lot but have stopped and resorted to a wheel spin balance machine. We found although they did often work there were quite a few cases were they did not. Why I have no idea although we did notice if the air put in the tire had moisture in it the beads would kinda bunch up. In the end we did find the wheel balance machine resulted in far fewer comebacks when it came to vibration issues. My suggestion dispense with the beads and get a proper tire balance performed. BTW you would have to make sure all the beads are removed from the tire.

 

Oh and also I checked my tires and did not find any marks at all with regards to locating the valve stem.

Yeah I'll be going back to traditional weights. I'm glad they work for some, but I wonder if I have an imperfection on my rim or the inside of my tire.

All other arguments pro and con aside I've always wondered why Yamaha, Honda etc. spend money balancing tires at the factory if they could get away throwing a hand full of what is essentially sand in the tires. Presumably their engineers have a problem with that.

I think they balance for the rim more than anything. My dad who's ridden hundreds of thousands of miles on wings absolutely never balances a new tire, and I never have either until I put this E4 on. We'd always just have them match the mark to the valve stem and call it good. Never any problems!

I will first admit that I have never tried the balancing beads. I guess I'm a bit too old school but I tend to stay with what works for me. I am not trying to sway anybody from not using them. Many here report that they work. For me though, I like using the traditional wheel weights where I can actually see that they are balanced before I ever put the rim and tire back on the bike. I know it is balanced and don't ever worry about whether or not those beads are doing their job. Just my personal choice. Now using that logic, I realize that I should probably being doing a lot of other things the old fashion way but the tire balancing is just something that I prefer to stick with to with the weights.

I will first admit that I have never tried the balancing beads. I guess I'm a bit too old school but I tend to stay with what works for me. I am not trying to sway anybody from not using them. Many here report that they work. For me though, I like using the traditional wheel weights where I can actually see that they are balanced before I ever put the rim and tire back on the bike. I know it is balanced and don't ever worry about whether or not those beads are doing their job. Just my personal choice. Now using that logic, I realize that I should probably being doing a lot of other things the old fashion way but the tire balancing is just something that I prefer to stick with to with the weights.

Well you know how it goes. You figure new state of the art tire, might as well make sure I've got all new state of the art balancing technologies too!

Maybe. My problem with that though is that I find that the new "state of the art" tires still require balancing. If it was only the rim that needed balancing, there would be no reason to ever change anything. Once the rim is balanced, it would be the same forever unless a weight came off or something. Every time I balance one, a different amount of weight is needed and not always in the exact same place. My current tires were installed about a year ago. They are Dunlop E3. One required no weight at all and the old weights were removed from the rim. The other required more weight than the old Avon Venoms that were removed and not in the same place. That proves to me that it is the tires, not the rims. Not saying that the rims are perfectly balanced but the tires make a big difference also.

It may be your tire. I have used a lot of Dunlope tires over the years and have had my share of bad ones. Dunlope has always replaced the bad ones. From not being able to balance them to bad cords. I would get it balanced at a tire store and then try. If it still vibrates you have a bad tire. No experience with tire beads.

I used beads for quite a few years but got tired of the struggle to get them into the tire. I guess that some valve stems just have a smaller ID than others and the beads barely are able to get down the hole. I even flattened the tip on a vibrating engraver tool just to pound on the valve stem and try to get the beads moving. Of course, changing the tire can also be a bit of a mess if you aren't super careful. Shops don't appreciate having a zillion little beads flying across the floor! At first I cut a hole in the old tire and dumped them out, and later I cut the rim off a plastic cup so that it could fit tightly against the inside surface of the tire and scoop up the loose beads.

For the last couple of tire changes, I just decided to quit screwing around and had the shop balance the tires in the regular way. The heck with it!

zag

I've had good results with Counteract beads, it beats clamping or sticking weights on newly restored rims. But once in a while you get a tire that just won't balance right, beads or weights. I bought four tires for the Charger a couple of years ago and they had to replace one of them after four tries to balance it, looked great on the machine but vibration at 70. Just a bad tire.

As a counterpoint to your experience and some faith that the beads do work...I offer this:

 

When I lost my nearly new rear tire to a nail 2 weeks ago in Michigan, I replaced the tire with a Shinko 230 Tourmaster and 2 oz of beads. I was doubtful they would work, but the guy at the shop was adamant they would...and he's known @coupuc most of his life. Well....after a week of running the roads back home...I can say that they do work. Thanks cowpuc for your expertise and muscle!!

 

So...that said. I would recommend you break the bead again and check the rim...make sure it's clean. Then make sure the outer rim where the weights went is clean as a whistle too. Then take the tire with a few pounds of air and try to do a static type balance....2 benches and your axle should work. The idea is to get the tire as close to neutral as can be had. Without the red dot to match the valve stem...this is going to be a chore. Once close...the beads will do their thing....

Not so sure about the "expertise" side of that equation,, or the muscle side of it either for that matter Vaz but what da heck,,, between the two of us we got er done brother!!!! And you are more then welcome and THANK YOU and your scoot for not having the problems on a 5 laner in Chicago !!!!

Cha,,, my opinion got me in a little trouble recently (someone didnt like what I had to say, found my phone number and let me know by text that "geezers have got their a$$'$ kicked for that") so I have had to make some adjustments to my personal info access and be a little more careful about how much of my opinion I share here,,,,, that said,,, please keep in mind that this is just that,,, an opinion...

I just went thru exactly the same thing as your video shows on Tweeksis!!! I had good enough success with rear tire bead balancing that I decided to try them with the new Shink that I stuck on the front of her a couple months ago,,, beaded the new rear at the time too.. Front didnt work worth a hoot at speeds over 80. Ended up pulling the beads and going back to lead and balancing as shown in the video below. I know my opinion has gotten me in recent trouble but,, once again,, IMHO I think the dynamics involved in the beads being in a steer wheel that is allowed to move laterally plays havoc on the beads ability to balance.. Possibly due to the idea (another way of stating an opinion here) that the beads balance vertical imbalance better than horizontal imbalance ..

I also know that my tire buddy that Vaz is talking about holds the opinion that beads are fine with sport bike speeds but I still think that higher speeds play a role in imbalance out of beads too.. I just mounted a new tire on the back of my R1 and stayed with lead and balancing also as shown in the vid below.. 165 = smooth as silk with an ounce and 3/4 of stick on's in the correct spot..

It is also my opinion that when using beads you need to be really careful about getting moisture of any kind internally of the tire when mounting.. Over spray of tire bead mounting soap will instantly ruin the balance bead affect. I know Vaz was extra careful when dumping in the beads on his rear tire here at the house cause I watched him dump em in and THAT is mandatory IMHO when using beads.

If I were you I would probably center stand the scoot, bust the tire loose from the rim while on the bike, hold the front brake and rotate the tire 180 degrees and then pop her back on the wheel and run er again to see if it starts the shake.. Take it easy though so you dont induce a tank slapper. I got a sneaking hunch that in the end you will want to redo the balance job though regardless cause (another IMHO here) I dont think balance beads really start working until speeds to the point of balance rotation for them anyway which does nothing for the 1st Gen 40 MPH "shimmy" that a couple of us have experienced and that you want no part of either....

Ok,, I'll shut up,,,, here's the vid,, hope it helps!!

It may be your tire. I have used a lot of Dunlope tires over the years and have had my share of bad ones. Dunlope has always replaced the bad ones. From not being able to balance them to bad cords. I would get it balanced at a tire store and then try. If it still vibrates you have a bad tire. No experience with tire beads.

I used beads for quite a few years but got tired of the struggle to get them into the tire. I guess that some valve stems just have a smaller ID than others and the beads barely are able to get down the hole. I even flattened the tip on a vibrating engraver tool just to pound on the valve stem and try to get the beads moving. Of course, changing the tire can also be a bit of a mess if you aren't super careful. Shops don't appreciate having a zillion little beads flying across the floor! At first I cut a hole in the old tire and dumped them out, and later I cut the rim off a plastic cup so that it could fit tightly against the inside surface of the tire and scoop up the loose beads.

 

For the last couple of tire changes, I just decided to quit screwing around and had the shop balance the tires in the regular way. The heck with it!

zag

Not so sure about the "expertise" side of that equation,, or the muscle side of it either for that matter Vaz but what da heck,,, between the two of us we got er done brother!!!! And you are more then welcome and THANK YOU and your scoot for not having the problems on a 5 laner in Chicago !!!!

 

Cha,,, my opinion got me in a little trouble recently (someone didnt like what I had to say, found my phone number and let me know by text that "geezers have got their a$$'$ kicked for that") so I have had to make some adjustments to my personal info access and be a little more careful about how much of my opinion I share here,,,,, that said,,, please keep in mind that this is just that,,, an opinion...

I just went thru exactly the same thing as your video shows on Tweeksis!!! I had good enough success with rear tire bead balancing that I decided to try them with the new Shink that I stuck on the front of her a couple months ago,,, beaded the new rear at the time too.. Front didnt work worth a hoot at speeds over 80. Ended up pulling the beads and going back to lead and balancing as shown in the video below. I know my opinion has gotten me in recent trouble but,, once again,, IMHO I think the dynamics involved in the beads being in a steer wheel that is allowed to move laterally plays havoc on the beads ability to balance.. Possibly due to the idea (another way of stating an opinion here) that the beads balance vertical imbalance better than horizontal imbalance ..

I also know that my tire buddy that Vaz is talking about holds the opinion that beads are fine with sport bike speeds but I still think that higher speeds play a role in imbalance out of beads too.. I just mounted a new tire on the back of my R1 and stayed with lead and balancing also as shown in the vid below.. 165 = smooth as silk with an ounce and 3/4 of stick on's in the correct spot..

It is also my opinion that when using beads you need to be really careful about getting moisture of any kind internally of the tire when mounting.. Over spray of tire bead mounting soap will instantly ruin the balance bead affect. I know Vaz was extra careful when dumping in the beads on his rear tire here at the house cause I watched him dump em in and THAT is mandatory IMHO when using beads.

If I were you I would probably center stand the scoot, bust the tire loose from the rim while on the bike, hold the front brake and rotate the tire 180 degrees and then pop her back on the wheel and run er again to see if it starts the shake.. Take it easy though so you dont induce a tank slapper. I got a sneaking hunch that in the end you will want to redo the balance job though regardless cause (another IMHO here) I dont think balance beads really start working until speeds to the point of balance rotation for them anyway which does nothing for the 1st Gen 40 MPH "shimmy" that a couple of us have experienced and that you want no part of either....

 

Ok,, I'll shut up,,,, here's the vid,, hope it helps!!

 

Puc, I sure hope you are kidding about someone calling you and threatening you! You don't THAT BAD!!! Really though, what childish behavior. Disgusting...

As far as the beads go, I've been reading that the reason why the Professional Racers don't use the beads is that when going over rough surfaces at such high speeds the beads get disrupted and tend to knock those tires temporarily off balance. If I go so far as to break the bead I might as well just remove the beads and get it balanced the old fashioned way. (I don't have an air compressor so I gotta do it at my pa's ) Thanks for the insight puc and I'm glad I'm not the only one on here with that issue!

Not so sure about the "expertise" side of that equation,, or the muscle side of it either for that matter Vaz but what da heck,,, between the two of us we got er done brother!!!! And you are more then welcome and THANK YOU and your scoot for not having the problems on a 5 laner in Chicago !!!!

 

Cha,,, my opinion got me in a little trouble recently (someone didnt like what I had to say, found my phone number and let me know by text that "geezers have got their a$$'$ kicked for that") so I have had to make some adjustments to my personal info access and be a little more careful about how much of my opinion I share here,,,,, that said,,, please keep in mind that this is just that,,, an opinion...

I just went thru exactly the same thing as your video shows on Tweeksis!!! I had good enough success with rear tire bead balancing that I decided to try them with the new Shink that I stuck on the front of her a couple months ago,,, beaded the new rear at the time too.. Front didnt work worth a hoot at speeds over 80. Ended up pulling the beads and going back to lead and balancing as shown in the video below. I know my opinion has gotten me in recent trouble but,, once again,, IMHO I think the dynamics involved in the beads being in a steer wheel that is allowed to move laterally plays havoc on the beads ability to balance.. Possibly due to the idea (another way of stating an opinion here) that the beads balance vertical imbalance better than horizontal imbalance ..

I also know that my tire buddy that Vaz is talking about holds the opinion that beads are fine with sport bike speeds but I still think that higher speeds play a role in imbalance out of beads too.. I just mounted a new tire on the back of my R1 and stayed with lead and balancing also as shown in the vid below.. 165 = smooth as silk with an ounce and 3/4 of stick on's in the correct spot..

It is also my opinion that when using beads you need to be really careful about getting moisture of any kind internally of the tire when mounting.. Over spray of tire bead mounting soap will instantly ruin the balance bead affect. I know Vaz was extra careful when dumping in the beads on his rear tire here at the house cause I watched him dump em in and THAT is mandatory IMHO when using beads.

If I were you I would probably center stand the scoot, bust the tire loose from the rim while on the bike, hold the front brake and rotate the tire 180 degrees and then pop her back on the wheel and run er again to see if it starts the shake.. Take it easy though so you dont induce a tank slapper. I got a sneaking hunch that in the end you will want to redo the balance job though regardless cause (another IMHO here) I dont think balance beads really start working until speeds to the point of balance rotation for them anyway which does nothing for the 1st Gen 40 MPH "shimmy" that a couple of us have experienced and that you want no part of either....

 

Ok,, I'll shut up,,,, here's the vid,, hope it helps!!

 

And I agree it seems like they balance for the rim more so than the tire from the factory. I wonder if I would have left the factory weights on if I'd even notice a vibration

That's my plan, I know Dunlop is a reliable company and we'll get it sorted out!

 

Yeah if you cant throw em in while the guys putting em on then its just not worth the effort!

 

 

 

Puc, I sure hope you are kidding about someone calling you and threatening you! You don't THAT BAD!!! Really though, what childish behavior. Disgusting...

 

As far as the beads go, I've been reading that the reason why the Professional Racers don't use the beads is that when going over rough surfaces at such high speeds the beads get disrupted and tend to knock those tires temporarily off balance. If I go so far as to break the bead I might as well just remove the beads and get it balanced the old fashioned way. (I don't have an air compressor so I gotta do it at my pa's ) Thanks for the insight puc and I'm glad I'm not the only one on here with that issue!

Not an actual phone call,, it was a text message from someone who obviously didnt appreciate the finer art form of opinion sharing .. Not that big of a deal,, I just learned why folks are careful about posting personal info on the net and made the necessary adjustments therein and also learned to hold some in the bag concerning sharing my opinions (not the first time,,, I spent a fair amount of time in the Principals Office in High School for EXACTLY what I am talking about )

On your balance bead thoughts,,, I was thinking you had a bead breaker that you could employ while the wheel/tire was still on the scoot?? If so,,, maybe break the bead and rotate the tire 180 and reseal it before you take it all back apart again to see if it helps.. This didnt help in my case with Tweeksis,,, she still shook at speeds over 80 and got worse when crossing into triple digits so I went back over everything with lead and solved it that way.....

Out of curiousity,, the next time I swap out a tire (which will be VERY SOON,,, got an E4 on its way!! - the new this spring rear shinko is almost bald now!) I will strip the rim clean and check it for balance all by itself, use lead to balance the rim all by itself and then recheck with the new E4 on it to see if it stays in balance.. That will be a good science experiment and make a good YouTube vid (IMHO,,,, ,,, here we go again )

I won't drag this out because Cowpuc has never complained to me about the text issue so I assume that he isn't too torn up over it. Just so that our new members know though. Trial members do NOT have access to members profiles. The reason for that is exactly because of such as issue as this. Anybody at all can sign up for a free 60 day trial membership and that is more than enough time for them to browse our members profiles and write down all the phone numbers of those that have them listed. Only paid supporting members can access the profiles.

That being said, the primary reason for phone numbers in the profiles is so that you can contact a local member if you have an issue while on the road or simply want to meet a member if you have to be in their area.

I can tell you for a fact. If any member looks up another members phone number simply to harass them about a difference of opinion or anything along those lines and you wish to report it to me, I will take whatever action is needed to put a stop to it. I try not to tread heavily here but some things just can't be allowed and that is one of them. In the 14 or so years of running this site, I can tell you that I can count of one hand the number of genuine members who have been banned from this site but that is something that would likely get you banned. When I say "genuine" members, I mean true participating members of our group. There have been MANY spammers banned.

Sorry, not trying to get this thread off-track but just felt that I needed to address this issue since it was the first I had heard about it.

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled program.