Slow Starter - When warm

oh I thought 86 up,,,hmm

Mine is a 1988.

My 1983 used to start perfect everytime. I should have removed the starter before I got rid of it.

oh I thought 86 up,,,hmm

When hot, my 89 barely turns over. It always started but I don't know how as slow as the starter turned it. I bought a used 4 brush starter off ebay for about $50 from Pinwall Cycle Salvage but I haven't gotten around to installing it. It came from a 96 RSTD.

so then, what year starter should he be looking for?

Well,, this is about as back yard mechanican as you can get but its always worked for me.. 1st thing that theoryized thru the years was that,, regardless of what vehicles starter we are talking about but especially applicable to small starters as found in motorcycles and garden tractors = using an old, weak battery is one of the hardest things you can use/do to your starter = IMHO,, if its struggling to turn,, heat is building up between the windings and that is not a good thing if you like to get max distance/use out of a starter (or any motor IMHO).. Batteries are cheap,, not uncommon for me to replace my lead/acid batteries every year or at least every couple years..

I also discovered early in my adVentures with my 2 brush 1st Gens that when they started doing the old hard start when hot routine,, if I removed the starter, opened it up,, cleaned the armature dust out real well and paid xtra attention to the groves in the armature and other close quarters to get them spotless = as new = the starters acted like they were new again!! One of my non genius theories of why that was has always been that the dust in there was cause voltage tracking/leaking and sucking the life out of the blood of the windings.. Crazy,, I know BUT,, it has always worked for me and never did the 4 brush upgrade and never even did the bigger cable routine.. Go figure..

so then, what year starter should he be looking for?

91 and up Venture starters or RSTD starters or any other bike that has the V4 from what I understand.

Thanks I had no idea y'all suffered from whimpy starters

Well,, this is about as back yard mechanican as you can get but its always worked for me.. 1st thing that theoryized thru the years was that,, regardless of what vehicles starter we are talking about but especially applicable to small starters as found in motorcycles and garden tractors = using an old, weak battery is one of the hardest things you can use/do to your starter = IMHO,, if its struggling to turn,, heat is building up between the windings and that is not a good thing if you like to get max distance/use out of a starter (or any motor IMHO).. Batteries are cheap,, not uncommon for me to replace my lead/acid batteries every year or at least every couple years..

I also discovered early in my adVentures with my 2 brush 1st Gens that when they started doing the old hard start when hot routine,, if I removed the starter, opened it up,, cleaned the armature dust out real well and paid xtra attention to the groves in the armature and other close quarters to get them spotless = as new = the starters acted like they were new again!! One of my non genius theories of why that was has always been that the dust in there was cause voltage tracking/leaking and sucking the life out of the blood of the windings.. Crazy,, I know BUT,, it has always worked for me and never did the 4 brush upgrade and never even did the bigger cable routine.. Go figure..

Agreed. I used to clean the generator on my Austin Healey. All the time. Dust and dirt would get in there and no or low charging. Got pretty good at that.

That "Armature Dust" that @cowpuc referred to is actually the material that has worn off of the carbon brushes from normal wear. So of course that material is electrically conductive. As the dust buildup gets thicker it is able to allow some of the starting power to bypass the windings effectively shorting them out. Any time you pull the starter you should open it up and do a very through job of cleaning all of the dust out of there. As Puc mentioned pay particular attention to the grooves between the bars of the commutator and both ends of the commutator and all the other electrical connections. Be very careful around the windings, you do not want to scratch the varnish insulation that is on the wires, that varnish is easily scratched with any metal tool and can still be scratched with a plastic tool. If you do scratch it (you will see bright shiny copper) just dab on some furniture type varnish with a small brush to regain the protection

Keeping all of the electrical connections clean will help a lot and may allow you to need no further modifications. Back when I did some testing I found out hat the stock starter cables were losing about 0.75V just due to their small diameter and the stock internal grounding of the brush plate inside of the starter was loosing about 0.5V. That is 1.25 volts not even reaching the starter motor. The cost of the internal ground mod in the starter is about $0.50 max. It is about 3 inches of #10AWG wire and a ring terminal and a drop of solder. The cost to upgrade the POS and NEG starter wires is going to around $30 to $50 depending on your sources.

Doing these simple mods and you will not have to replace the battery every year like Puc does, because there will be more of the batteries power making it to the starter. I did just these mods (not the 4 brush starter) and typically get 5-6 years out of a battery with no hot start issues the whole time. In the 30 years and 75,000 miles on my bike The starter was only removed once to do the grond mod and a good cleaning.

That "Armature Dust" that cowpuc referred to is actually the material that has worn off of the carbon brushes from normal wear. So of course that material is electrically conductive. As the dust buildup gets thicker it is able to allow some of the starting power to bypass the windings effectively shorting them out. Any time you pull the starter you should open it up and do a very through job of cleaning all of the dust out of there. As Puc mentioned pay particular attention to the grooves between the bars of the commutator and both ends of the commutator and all the other electrical connections. Be very careful around the windings, you do not want to scratch the varnish insulation that is on the wires, that varnish is easily scratched with any metal tool and can still be scratched with a plastic tool. If you do scratch it (you will see bright shiny copper) just dab on some furniture type varnish with a small brush to regain the protection

 

Keeping all of the electrical connections clean will help a lot and may allow you to need no further modifications. Back when I did some testing I found out hat the stock starter cables were losing about 0.75V just due to their small diameter and the stock internal grounding of the brush plate inside of the starter was loosing about 0.5V. That is 1.25 volts not even reaching the starter motor. The cost of the internal ground mod in the starter is about $0.50 max. It is about 3 inches of #10AWG wire and a ring terminal and a drop of solder. The cost to upgrade the POS and NEG starter wires is going to around $30 to $50 depending on your sources.

 

Doing these simple mods and you will not have to replace the battery every year like Puc does, because there will be more of the batteries power making it to the starter. I did just these mods (not the 4 brush starter) and typically get 5-6 years out of a battery with no hot start issues the whole time. In the 30 years and 75,000 miles on my bike The starter was only removed once to do the grond mod and a good cleaning.

yep,, :sign yeah that: and lots more of !!

BUT,,always remember and never forget,, if all else fails you can ALWAYS:

Just have to share that this is the funniest thread I have ever read on a forum.

The old Dr joke rings true for the 1st Gens

Hey Dr it hurts when I do this!

Dr: Then don't do that !

These 1st and 2nd gens really have personalities....and we love them

Thanks for the laugh.

VentureFar....

Just have to share that this is the funniest thread I have ever read on a forum.

The old Dr joke rings true for the 1st Gens

 

Hey Dr it hurts when I do this!

Dr: Then don't do that !

 

These 1st and 2nd gens really have personalities....and we love them

 

Thanks for the laugh.

 

VentureFar....

Soooo much fun:crackup:!!!! Love you my brother:happy34:!!!

Cowpoc: Good thing this forum and people like you exists because otherwise keeping a 1st gen Venture alive would cost as much as buying a new Goldwing.

Just have to share that this is the funniest thread I have ever read on a forum.

The old Dr joke rings true for the 1st Gens

 

Hey Dr it hurts when I do this!

Dr: Then don't do that !

 

These 1st and 2nd gens really have personalities....and we love them

 

Thanks for the laugh.

 

VentureFar....

I used to work with a body builder. He was having a pain in his elbow when he worked out and the doctor he went to see told him the same thing. Just don't do that any more.

When my 89 is cold the starter cranks just fine. After it is warm the starter turns over very slow, pauses, and then the engine fires and starts. It has been this way ever since I got the bike 7 years ago. I lost the stator on a road trip last year (thanks freebird for the replacement procedure, worked great) so now things like this are getting more of my attention. I would like to pull the starter to test it, can it be done without removing the radiator? Any ideas on why it starts the way it does when it is warm? The battery was new last year and the stator is working fine now.

 

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

This slow that when warm is common issue ...I have old 83 that did the same thing . After replacing the start relay and all start related cables I pulled the starter and found that the bearing on the armature at the brush end of the starter was not turning freely ( sticking at times ) ..I set the bearing end in penetrating oil for while and then set it in some 5 --20 synthetic oil for while , then the bearing freed up ..Then assembled starter and it works much better when engine is warm