shifter still stuck

Well after the new master cylinder and new slave ,which ironically went in fairly easily, and after reverse bleeding with tutoring from Condor, my shifter on old 83 is still stuck....

Can't go up or down thru the gears with or without the clutch.. just seems stuck. Up on the centerstand, the rear wheel is free.

With the clutch cover off, I can by hand turn the center.

Help ......b4 this goes to the shop and get more expensive than the bike is worth.

Clay

I did note that when T turn the rear wheel the center of the clutch bearing does turn as well.. Whatever the heck that means.. Green neutral light is on.

Will the shift lever move up and down ?? probably does, right. just wont shift.

It sounds like a pin in the shift drum has come loose. fairly simple to fix.

It is located behind the clutch drum.

I forget the status of your bike. Has it ever, in your possession, run and shifted properly before your cluch hydraulic problems? When you tried to shift it, is the engine idling? If not, have you tried applying pressure to the shifter while turning the rear wheel? Sometimes these things need a little motion to slide into place.

With the clutch cover off, I can by hand turn the center.

Does this apply only when holding the clutch lever in, or all the time? When you pull the lever do you see the center move outward a little?

I did note that when T turn the rear wheel the center of the clutch bearing does turn as well.. Whatever the heck that means.. Green neutral light is on.

When you turn the clutch center by hand, does the rear wheel turn?

The center (boss/pressure plate) and outside (basket) of the clutch should always be locked together UNLESS you're holding the clutch lever in, then they should be free of each other. The disconnect point between the engine and rear wheel due to being in neutral is inside the tranny; you can't see it from the outside.

Jeremy

The gear shifter itself will not move....

]I forget the status of your bike. Has it ever, in your possession, run and shifted properly before your cluch hydraulic problems? When you tried to shift it, is the engine idling? If not, have you tried applying pressure to the shifter while turning the rear wheel? Sometimes these things need a little motion to slide into place.

Oh yes this bike has run beautifully for years. Just got done with a 5000 mile trip that needed 5250 except it died 250 miles from home...The clutch had started to lose fluid and pressure the last thousand miles or so. had to bleed it and refill .. which caused me to think master cyl. and slave which I just replaced and also reverse bled well.

Tried moving the shifter all ways with wheel moving f and b.. also with engine off and idling.

Does this apply only when holding the clutch lever in, or all the time? When you pull the lever do you see the center move outward a little?

No the center does NOT move outward even in the least.. I can hear the slave seemingly working . Wheel and center turn whether clutch lever is held in or released.

When you turn the clutch center by hand, does the rear wheel turn? ----YES it does

The center (boss/pressure plate) and outside (basket) of the clutch should always be locked together UNLESS you're holding the clutch lever in, then they should be free of each other. The disconnect point between the engine and rear wheel due to being in neutral is inside the tranny; you can't see it from the outside.

any of this give you any more thoughts???

Clay

Jeremy

I think you hit on the important points...

He doesn't see the clutch parts separate as he engages the clutch... wrong!

He can see the center move (along with the rear wheel) ...wrong, these should be FIRMLY engaged without the lever pulled. Something is holding these plates apart AGAINST the clutch spring force.

It sounds like the clutch is locked in the release mode. I would pull off the slave (always go back where you were last before the problem hit)... this should release the clutch plates.

Now the shifter shaft not moving... this is a simple shaft coupled linkage back to the tranny on the left side... THAT shaft passes through to the clutch side and there's a series of pins over there that can fall out and that might lock the lever... sounds like that might be something for inspection...

You should be able to get your hand up on the left side and "feel" the linkage is wiggling, from the foot lever through the linkage to the tranny mounted shaft... if it "wiggles" then we are looking over on the right side for the problem...

I'm no expert but it sounds like an attack plan.

Not a bad idea.. maybe I'll go back and take the slave off again... damn ,that means bleeding the system again.... :smash2: ..

No, just don't take the hose off. All you want to do is loosen up the bolts to possibly remove any pressure on the rod that travels thru the engine over to the clutch side. If the center plate still turns freely of the outside basket, then you'll have to remove the clutch cover (6 bolts with springs beneath). Then carefully remove the clutch plates (keeping them in order) inspecting each one as you take them out. I do not expect any problems with these, it is either the push rod coming thru the motor is stuck or something in the clutch stack is holding it out (doubtfull). Once the cluch cover is off, see if you can remove the short rod sticking out of the center of the the clutch. The visible end should be rounded, the opposite end should have a "flat" spot on it. IT MUST GO BACK IN THIS WAY!!!!!!!!!!

On the slave side, if you can move the slave out of the way enuff to see the rod, it should come out of the casing far enuff to contact the cup in the slave. Reinsert the short rod from the clutch side and see how hard it is to push the rod towards the left side, then repeat from the left to right.

To check the shift cam, you'll have to remove the clutch basket, I suspect that one of the fingers that hold in the shift pins is bent out, allowing a shift pin to come out partially, or the shifter "fingers" have become convoluted in some way.

To remove the clutch basket, you'll have to make a "basket holder" with a 1x6, 2 "L" brackets that are 1" long x 1" long, get the 3/16's or thicker brackets or they'll bend easy. Then use a 30mm socket with a 1/2" drive long ratchet to break loose the nut (it is VERY tight!) Then you can pull the basket off and check the shift cam.

Well after the new master cylinder and new slave ,which ironically went in fairly easily, and after reverse bleeding with tutoring from Condor, my shifter on old 83 is still stuck....

 

Can't go up or down thru the gears with or without the clutch.. just seems stuck. Up on the centerstand, the rear wheel is free.

 

With the clutch cover off, I can by hand turn the center.

 

Help ......b4 this goes to the shop and get more expensive than the bike is worth.

 

Clay

Clay,

Is it possible that the attachment for the shift lever to the shift shaft was put on upside down on re-assembly? It's possible to get it back together like that, and things just don't work so good. Been there, done that, greased up the T-shirt.

Just another quick thing to check off.

Paul

Thanks for the thought. That was going to be my inspection Friday.. Check to see if the linkage is binding somewhere...It has always worked previously, but one never knows...

Thanks to Dan, the clutch seems to be eliminated as an issue. With his expert advise and tutelege, I removed clutch pack and checked that over as well as the shifting mechanism on the clutch side.. All is well there........

Let's see.. master cylinder rebuild, new slave , clutch seems to be functional.... bent or bound linkage will be next check. Thanks to all for any ideas and suggestions.. Great bunch of people here....

Clay

Clay,

 

Is it possible that the attachment for the shift lever to the shift shaft was put on upside down on re-assembly? It's possible to get it back together like that, and things just don't work so good. Been there, done that, greased up the T-shirt.

 

Just another quick thing to check off.

 

Paul

Deffinatly check this before you tear into anything else. I made this same mistake,

Very easy to do !!! You end up with " UP " goes into 1st Gear.

Bad part, is you might need another new gasket. Oh Well , such is life.

linkage on left side from shifter goes thru front stator/ flywheel cover and then back to a rod that comes from ____________________????? the rod that comes out seems to be stuck.

Checked clutch, etc and that all seems fine.... linkage still stuck. It has never been taken off b4 today and has always worked.

Clay

Clay, I'm looking at the part fish for the 86-87 models (should be very close to yours in design) which I think I got from this site. I'm looking at the "shift shaft" and "shift cam - fork" diagrams. I'll say this - that bloomin' shift linkage sure goes all over the place! Will you take a look at it? Then maybe you could say which rod is stuck. Is it the one at the top, #10, "shift lever assembly" which appears to go all the way thru the engine to the RH side? If so, then it's likely the pin problem behind the shift basket that some guys are talking about.

Jeremy

if I knew where to find that diagram I sure would be able to identify it....Where did you find that????? This issue certainly is starting to look more and more complicated. I'm just hoping something did not give way in the transmission....

The rod I am looking at sit under the casing for the pinion gear well back under there.

I hope you checked your PM. Tonite we're gonna remove your shift shaft and see what the problem is. You wanna buy me a plane ticket?

For everyone else---- last nite thru a couple phone calls, we checked the shift drum, the clutch rod and a couple other things. The knuckles were in correctly. Seems like we're having a problem either with the shaft itself or something on the shift fingers actuating the shift drum.

Dan

Go to www.flatoutmotorcycles.com, look at their parts finder (left side bar) go thru the steps to get to your model (XV 12) and look under "shift shaft" (go figure!). Could be the oil seal is frozen to the shaft????? Anybody "venture" a guess? Unless it is something with the shift fingers, I'm starting to bat less than .300 here.

Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to bookmark that. I have a feeling that it will be useful more than once. Thanks for all the help Dan:12101:

Clay

I think you should undo the Star Washer(the Assembly where the Pins are) or the Rachet Mechanism behind the Clutch Basket. This would give you the Opportunity to check if either the Shift Shaft, it's Linkage or if the Culprit is the Shift Drum/Shift Fork Connection.

After you removed one of the connecting Parts, you can move the Shift Lever or the Shift Shaft with a Vise Grip and feel if it's moving. I can imagine the Shift Drum is stuck between Gears due to some Force applied during the Dismount of the Slave Cylinder, but to be honest, i have no 100 Percent Solution to cure that.

Probably a second Pair of Hands could turn the Crank over at the Flywheel while you are working the Star Washer to get the Shift Forks moved and the Tranny into a Gear. I would not use the Shift Linkage via the Rachet Mechanism to achieve that, maybe you could use a Piece of Metall or a flat Tools which fits between the Pins as a Lever. Don't over due the Force applied. The Motor HAS to be turned over during this. To make that easier, undo the Spark Plugs.

Squeeze, I have been on the phone with Clay several times, we have removed the shift linkage, shift rod and fingers, rotated the shift cam thru the gears. He can shift by pushing up and down on the finger that goes over the star screw holding in the shift cam (without the shift knuckles installed under left side covers). sometimes having to rotate the drive axle to line up gears.

We now feel that it must be contained in the knuckle, rod thru left cover, knuckle up to toe shifter area. He now understands how things work and operate and the correct names of parts (doing very well at this, too!). SInce we had left side cover off, he is going to put that back together sometime this weekend so we can re-check operation.

Stayed tuned for further developments!!!

We also figured that his thrust washer has been fixed under recall, 40,000 mi on bike, no sign of chatter in second, no visible wear on the split clip at the end of the driven axle.

Thanks,

Dan

any updates??? this sounds so familier

Stayed tuned for further developments!!!

 

Dan

Yeah, this has been nine months. A lot can happen in that amount of time. Did I miss something in another post?

RandyA

As far as I know, it's been running fine since about a week after that. I believe one of the knuckles was stuck.