PDA

View Full Version : 2nd Gen Valve Adjustment


V7Goose
07-13-2009, 02:11 PM
WARNING - this is LONG, so unless you are actually going to adjust your valves, or just like to read mechanical cookbooks, you probably should just stop here! There is a LOT involved in this job. It needs to be done, but it is probably worth whatever you local shop is charging. I'd certainly pay $200 for it if I trusted the shop, and I'm very comfortable doing the job myself. If you don't trust your shop, or don't have the money, then read on!


We periodically have questions and discussions here on valve adjustments, like how often? (26,600 miles), is it really needed? (yes), how to? (read on), etc. And the tech manual, along with several other members, indicate it is a BIG job. So Ponch and I decided to organize a training session to see first-hand what was involved and find out about any surprises before we attempted to help any other members on this. And I want to really emphasize how thankful we are to BuddyRich for his wonderful loan of a shim kit and special tool, along with his selfless help of an entire day of hot sweaty work! Without him, what follows would probably never have happened:

Background info:
My 2005 RSV had the first valve check/adjustment done on schedule around 27,000 miles through the initial maintenance contract I purchased with the bike. Since the shop did it, I have no idea if any shim changes were actually needed, but since I saw evidence the valve cover gaskets were changed, I will assume that at the end of that service, all 16 valves were within spec. My bike now has 70,000 miles on it, putting it about 15,000 miles overdue for the second valve check. I found about half the valves either right at minimum tolerance or too tight (and three of them were significantly too tight). You get to decide how often you want to do your own bike, but I'll be doing this one by 30,000 miles each time now.

Planning:
1. Order your gaskets and find tools and shims first.

I wouldn't want to do this job without a valve shim kit unless I was willing to leave the bike torn down for several days to go find the right shims after measuring all the clearances. In addition, there are different ways to hold down the valve buckets to change the shims, but the only "right" way (and certainly the easiest) is to have the special tool; therefore, find or buy one before you start.The valve cover gasket is 4NK-11193-00-00, and the best price I found was at www.carolinacycle.com for about $18 ea.

We have several members who have the tool and a shim kit (just a selection of various sizes) who may be willing to loan them. BuddyRich and Mother are two you might ask (if anyone else wants their name listed or removed here, please contact me so I can edit this post!).

If you find someone to loan a shim kit, PLEASE ask them ahead of time to look at the current collection of shims, particularly the 265 and 270 sizes, to see if any common sizes are in short supply. The shims don't cost much, and in return for the loan, you really should buy at least two new shims in needed sizes before you start the job. Not only will this make it more likely you have the ones you need for your own bike, but it will make the kit better for the next use. It is hard to say ahead of time what sizes might be most needed, since every bike will change the mix. When we did four bikes on the same day, it was very interesting to see that. After the first two bikes, we had a ton of 270 shims, but not many 265 or 275. But after the next bike, there were only a couple 270s left but a big stack of 275.
2. This is a perfect time to change your coolant, so if you need it, have that on hand too. Even if you don't need to change it, you WILL need to drain about a quart, so have an appropriate clean tray and funnel that will allow you to do this and then add it back later.

3. This is also the perfect time to change your plugs, so have them on hand too.

4. Get a can of spray carb and choke cleaner. You are gonna want to pull those carbs (perfect time to set the floats too), and the #1 and #2 carbs are gonna be NASTY with oil residue and dirt. Legend has it that you can do this job without pulling the carbs, but no way I would want to try it. And besides, once you have all the other stuff off, pulling the carbs just isn't that hard.

5. You will really want to have your bike straight up for this job, so a center stand or maintenance jack is good to have on hand. This isn't required, but will be a lot easier and cleaner! On the side stand, you get some oil dumping off the left corner of the heads when you crack the valve cover loose, and more that comes out the covers in the left crank case. The oil mess is much worse if you have Leveling Links and you try this on the side stand!

6. Misc. tools: A good set of feeler gauges are obvious, but you will also need a torque wrench that goes down to 7.2 ft lbs (10 Nm or 86 in lbs), and a magnetic retrieving tool, tweezers or hemostats, and a good quality very small screwdriver (like a mid-size jeweler's driver, but stronger) will be necessary to remove the shims. I also recommend a tube of high temperature RTV 'gasket goo' to use on certain points of the new gaskets. On those feeler gauges, most sets have both inch and mm numbers, but the primary (or even increments) that it uses will be either inch or metric. You will have a much easier time of measuring and selecting shims if you have a metric set. And make certain you have a very bright flashlight - I prefer one of the new small LED ones because of the birghtness and color of the light.

7. Instructions - the shop manual is generally pretty good here, so I suggest you print out pages 3-9 through 3-13.

The Job:


Start by removing the basic stuff: seat, tank, lower cowlings, air filters. Since you WILL need to drain some coolant, just go ahead and pull those lower cowlings now and make taking off the air filters easier.
Remove the "dog bones" connecting the front cylinder heads to the frame.
Remove the air intake tract, including the rubber tubes where the air filters attach, the top air plenums, and the rubber T between the air filters (it is held on by one 10mm bolt on the right side of the frame).

To get the air plenums off, you will need to first remove the metal straps on top (four screws each), and the two screws holding the crank case vent hose in the middle, then pull the hoses and wire bundles off to the side. After the clamps on top of each carb and the front clamp are loose, each plenum will just pull straight up. When taking off the metal straps, note that the inside front screw on each is longer than the other three, and be CAREFUL when putting all of those screws back at the end of this job - they will strip very easily!

When you pull the crankcase breather connection loose from between the two air plenums, be careful of the little foam rings, most of them are stretched and falling apart - unfortunately they don't seem to be available in the parts breakdown.

When you lift off each air plenum, there is a vent hose connected on the rear that will just pop off (watch out for the little wire spring clip - they aren't really necessary, but you don't want to have one pop off and get stuck in a carb or something).
Pull all four plugs (necessary to turn the engine over while checking the valves).
Drain the coolant - if not changing it, you will still need to drain a quart or so to allow the removal of the water hose from the rear head.

CAUTION! The 12mm drain plug on the bottom left of the radiator is just plastic (as is the radiator), so when putting the plug back in, DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN!!!! The correct tightness is about what you can put on a clean, dry 3/8" socket extension with your bare hand.
Pull the carb assembly. Start by disconnecting the fuel line behind the right rear carb and open the two clips on top of the carbs to release the fuel line that goes to the tank. Then disconnect the two overflow hoses that connect on top between the carbs and run forward to the front of the air filters. Go ahead and remove those overflow hoses completely, just pay attention to how they are routed and watch for the little plastic clip that holds them together between the carbs.

At this point, all you need to do is loosen the hose clamp beneath each carb (but see the caution below) and disconnect the two electric plugs for the wires connected near the left front carb. You will find both of these plugs right up next to the frame under the large main wire bundle. The white two-wire plug is for the carb heaters, and the black triangular three-wire plug is the throttle position sensor. With the hose clamps below all four carbs loose, you can pull straight up on the assembly on each side to "pop" them loose from the intake manifolds (and this usually takes a lot of force!). With the carb assembly loose it slides straight out the left side. I generally wait until this point when the carbs are part way out to disconnect the throttle cables - access is much easier. Just loosen the long nut on each cable to allow it to slip off the bracket - as long as you don't move the small nut, the cables adjustment will not change.

CAUTION! The screws on the hose clamps on the bottom of each carb are VERY soft metal. In addition, those clamps each have a metal collar to prevent you from over tightening them on the rubber boot. On most of the bikes I have worked on, at least one of those screws has been frozen so hard that the head stripped out, requiring me to drill it off to remove the clamp. If you have this same problem, stuff a rag under the clamp before you drill it off so you don't loose that little collar. The screw can then be replaced with any standard 4mm screw from the hardware store.

With the carbs out, you probably should stuff a paper towel in each intake manifold to prevent anything from accidentally disappearing down there while you are working on the bike.
Remove the chrome covers on the cylinder heads.
Remove the plastic wire tray under the frame in front of the battery cover. This is held on by one 10mm bolt on the left side of the frame and a screw under all those hoses in front of the battery. Once that tray is off, pull the disconnected vent hoses out the back to get some needed working room above the rear valve cover.
Finally, the last thing to take off before you can actually remove the valve covers is the rubber hose for the water line to the rear cylinder head (no need to take the front one off).
You will need to remove the two plugs/covers in the center of the left crankcase cover to turn the engine, so now is a good time to do that. The two #3 philips-head screws are generally REAL tight, so make sure you use the correct size screwdriver to not bugger them. With the screws out, just use a very small screwdriver to work the cover back and forth on the O-ring to get it to pop off. There is a thin metal plate that will fall out as soon as the cover comes loose - it just goes back in with the ridge facing the crank, and you usually will not need to replace the O-rings on the covers.
And now for the valve covers! Four flat allen-head bolts on each and they will pop off without too much effort. The gaskets are thick rubber, and they overlap a hollow cavity at the corner of each head. Just use your finger to pull of that rubber corner and then you can put a small screwdriver under there and catch the edge of the valve cover to pry it up. The rear cover will be difficult to get off, even after everything you have already removed! But just raise it as high as you can against the fuel line or other wire bundles still hanging below the frame and kinda rotate it forward to clear the cam chain. The front cover has lots of top clearance, but you need to take it out the right side to clear the water hose you left in place.

FINALLY - ready to actually start checking valve clearance!

MEASURING THE VALVE CLEARANCE:
You can approach the measurement of the valve clearance two ways - some folks prefer to just turn the engine until they see the cam lobe pointing up for whatever valve they are checking, but I prefer to follow the more common practice of setting a piston at TDC on the compression stroke, then checking all valves for that cylinder (this is also the method from the service manual). But here is a little clue - don't get too hung up on believing everything in the service manual! There is a note in several places that tells you "TDC on the compression stroke can be found when the camshaft lobes are turned away from each other." NOT SO!!! While true for the front two cylinders, the cam lobes on the rear two cylinders will NEVER point away from each other! Seems weird to me, as I really expected the valve timing to show the identical relationship between the cams on all the cylinders for the same engine, but the facts show different. And before anyone asks, I did check my valve timing according to the manual and the index marks on the cams, and all four cams were correct.

Anyway, back to the measurement. Start by turning the engine counterclockwise until you see the valves on #1 cylinder (left rear) all closed, then watch for the timing mark on the generator rotor through the observation hole to align with the mark on the crankcase cover. It is not necessary for it to be exactly perfect to measure the valves. Now you can check the clearance on both intake and both exhaust valves for #1. Since you are dealing with four valves at a time, it is helpful to write down the clearance you measure so you don't have to re-check them over and over again! If any valves need to be adjusted, I explain this in the next section.

After completing the measurement and/or adjustment for #1, if you turn the crank 180 degrees, cylinder #3 (right rear) will be at TDC and ready to check (just put the socket on the crankshaft with the handle pointing to the rear and turn it counterclockwise until the handle points forward - can't get much easier than that!).

When you are done with #3, turn the crank 180 degrees again, then start watching for a second timing mark to line up on the generator rotor 70 degrees later (a little less than 1/4 of a turn), now #2 is at TDC and ready to check.

Finally, after checking/adjusting #2, just turn the crank 180 degrees one more time and #4 will be at TDC and ready to check.

When you are done with #4, turning the crank just 110 degrees (slightly more than 1/4 turn) puts #1 back at TDC to start over. After you have made adjustments to any valve, I strongly recommend you turn the engine through several turns to ensure the valve shims are fully seated and measure them again to see if the final clearance is what you want. I found I needed to change the shims several times on some valves to get it right. By going through the 1, 3, 2, 4 sequence several times you get the chance to double-check all your measurements, as well as re-check the ones you changed.


CHANGING THE VALVE CLEARANCE:
Note: You will find a second person to help turn the engine VERY helpful here, especially when working on #3 and #4!

To adjust the clearance you need to remove the existing shim and replace it with one of a more appropriate thickness. The majority of changes will be to a thinner shim, but you won't have any idea what the needed size will be until you get the existing shim out. Getting the tappet adjusting tool inserted the first time can be a little tricky. It can be inserted from either side of the cam, depending on which side you want to pull the shim from. The first thing you do is turn the crank in either direction so that the cam lobe is pointing AWAY from the side where you plan to insert the tool. Next, before you insert the tool, use your fingertip to turn both shim buckets until one of the open notches is where you can reach it with your small screwdriver - this is where you will need to pry up the old shim to break the suction of the oil film (and that can be tough to do). To insert the tool, try to rotate the short end under the cam to depress the buckets. You won't get it very far just with your fingers, so slowly turn the crank in the proper direction to let the cam finish turning the tool into place (while keeping some pressure on the long arm of the tool to make it move). You will want to make sure the tool is turned all the way until the long arm touches the side of the head or you won't have enough clearance to pull out the old shim.

Now that the tool is in place, reach in with that little screwdriver and pry up on the bottom edge of the shim - the suction of the oil film will be STRONG, so don't be surprised if you have a tough time getting each shim to pop up. Once it does pop up, you can either grab it with tweezers or a magnet to pull it out. Turn it over and note the number on the bottom (they should always be installed with the number down). Replacement shims are only available in .05mm increments (such as 260, 265, and 270), but the ones you pull out might be be anything (such as 269 or 272). That is why you will find some odd numbers in the shim kit - they came out of someone else's bike.

To decide what shim to put back in, you need to know what the clearance was before you removed it (remember, I said to write it down)! The shop manual has a really neat chart that lets you just look along one axis to find the number on your current shim, then just look down the side to find the clearance you measured - where the two lines intersect, that is the new shim number you need. It works pretty good, but make sure you look at the right chart (they are different for intake and exhaust)! If you try and do this job without having a shim kit, those charts are really the best way to decide which shims you need to buy.

A less formal but more natural way is to just look at the number of the current shim, think about how much you need to change it (was that valve just a little tight, or a lot tight?), and then choose a slightly thinner or thicker shim that you think might be in the ballpark. For example, if you pull out a 273 shim and the valve was just a tad too tight, you might want to try a 270, but if it seemed quite a bit lower than the minimum spec, better go straight to the 265. No matter how you selected the new shim size, it is very important to turn the engine over several times and then re-check the clearance to see if your guess was correct - even using the charts leaves room for error.

Putting it all back Together:
Just a few notes here on reassembling the bike - most everything will just be a reverse of the disassembly process, but there are a few pointers to help you.

Valve Cover Gaskets:
These are very thick rubber with big half-circle "lumps" at the ends of each camshaft. They only go on ONE way. They are flat on the bottom, and the top has a ridge that fits into the groove on the valve cover. But it does not fit tight enough in the groove to hold it in place while you put the cover back. No matter, though, since there is not enough clearance to get the cover back on the rear cylinders with it attached - your only choice is to place the gasket on the head and then maneuver the cover in place. The original gasket seems to have been held to the cover by several spots of rubber cement in the groove, but there was no sign that a gasket sealant was used all the way around. Other than those glue spots on the cover, there was no sign that the original factory gasket had any RTV type gasket sealant used at all during assembly. However, when the shop did my valves the first time, they DID use a bit of RTV, but only on the lumps, and neither gasket ever leaked in 40,000 miles. For comparison, one person who had replaced the gasket without using any sealant did develop a slight leak at one of those lumps over time. For these reasons, I personally recommend applying just a thin coat of high temperature RTV to the depression in the head where those lumps fit before putting the gasket in place.

Now look closely at the parts of the gasket where it is next to the spark plugs - on the exhaust side only you will see a slight squiggle or wave in the gasket, and on the cylinder head you will see a matching wave. Make sure you position the gasket with those points matching. Then look at the cover - notice the same wave? Guess where it goes . . .

When you lower the cover down on the gasket, the challenge is to get the ridge on the gasket to smoothly fit up into the groove on the cover all the way around. If you even have a hint that the cover is not completely smooth and flush on the head, then the gasket is NOT completely seated in that groove. Take your time and trace the entire edge with a bright flashlight to get it right. Remember how much work it was to get that cover off; you don't want to have to do it again! When putting the front gasket and cover in place, remember they must go in from the right side to fit around that water pipe.

The torque on the cover bolts is only 7.2 ft lbs., and that is not much. Make sure you have a wrench that has a setting that low, and use it. These are not the kind of gaskets where you can go back later and tighten them a little more if you get a leak. In fact, over tightening the cover on that thick rubber will just distort it and make the leak worse. Although the manual does not say to tighten the bolts from the inside out in a cross pattern like you would the head bolts, that is still the method I recommend.

Air Intake Parts:
Make sure you get that front T in place before you put the carbs in, same with the rubber Y that connects the air plenums to the T. The only thing to remember about the T is that it has a locating lug sticking out the front that MUST fit in the rubber grommet in the frame. The hose clamp on that rubber Y is located on the left side of the bike, with the head facing up. Initially it seems impossible to access, but just use a long screwdriver behind the wire bundles next to the frame.

Putting the carbs back in:
After making sure the hose clamps are still properly positioned on the top of the intake manifolds, slide the carbs in from the left side, but leave them just far enough out to make it easy to attach the throttle cables. Then after making sure all the carbs are centered on the manifolds, you need to push down on them pretty hard to pop them back in place. Try to put the base of your hand on top of the carb throats, not on the plastic diaphragm covers. Re-route all the fuel lines and vent hoses appropriately, and don't forget to re-connect the two plugs.

Putting on the air plenums:
Some people have had real trouble getting the air plenums to fit properly back on top of the carbs (and stay there when they tighten the clamps). In every single case I have seen, this has been caused by the rubber neck on the plenum being caught on the edge of the carb and buckled under the clamp - usually behind the carb where it is impossible to see. Make sure the clamps are plenty loose and rock the plenum a bit when putting it on. If the rubber is not buckled in there, the plenum will fit fully down on the carbs and not spring back up at all. Unlike the lower hose clamps, those on top of the carbs do not have a metal collar to prevent them from being over tightened, so just make sure they are properly set in the grooves on the plenum and snug them up pretty good instead of trying to play Magilla.


I think that is about it. Let me know if you think I have missed something or you have any questions!
Goose

N3FOL
07-13-2009, 05:36 PM
I own a 95 Taurus SHO and had done my valve adjustment 2X on the Taurus. This Taurus has a Yamaha engine, so I have a feeling that the shims my car use is similar to the Venture. I also have a special tool to lift the cams in order for me to have access to the shim. Not sure if it is the same special tool that I can use for the Venture. If the Shims are the same, I now have a complete set including used ones that I replaced.

If you have pics of the special tool and shim, I may be able to compare it with what I have.

Tom
07-13-2009, 05:59 PM
Excellent Write Up.

frogmaster
07-13-2009, 06:44 PM
Friends DO NOT let Friends miss Valve Adjustments... PERIOD! You want 250,000 mile from your Venture you best do Valves every (26,000) specially if in the Magic 5 Year Window called Warranty.

Nuff Said :)

Way to go V7Goose

Who can put this in the TECH Library???

V7Goose
07-13-2009, 07:42 PM
Who can put this in the TECH Library???
I will, as soon as I am done fine-tuning it based on our collective memories and any other comments I get. Thanx,
Goose

Sleeperhawk
07-13-2009, 07:43 PM
:thumbsup::clap2:

Got have way through and said, this is a winter time project.

Cougar
07-13-2009, 08:24 PM
Good Job Goose.Thanks!

Tom
07-13-2009, 08:52 PM
Glad I didnt try to write that! The only thing I would say is have the Aleve Handy afterwards..Great Job Goose!

Seaking
07-13-2009, 10:33 PM
I will, as soon as I am done fine-tuning it based on our collective memories and any other comments I get. Thanx,
Goose

Dang.. my '06 bike has turned over the 40,000 miles mark this past week and most likely never had anything done to it under warranty (US bike brought into Canada, I'm the 3rd owner)..

Looks like sometime soon this bike is gonna need a lot of TLC cause I love this bike.. it's a sweeeeet ride..

Thanks Goose.. I'll see if I can manage a winter trip down lol..

Cheers

RandyR
07-13-2009, 11:05 PM
I ordered one of the shim tools and a set of feeler gauges 2-3 weeks ago, It was coming out of Canada, so I suppose I have to wait for the package to get thru customs. Maybe I'll get a chance to practice on someone else's valves before my own turns 26,000 miles. I see the shims on ebay, and they are the same size as my Triumph uses.

gunboat
07-13-2009, 11:23 PM
thanks goose
great write up, looks like you covered it all. i feel a whole lot better about doing the valve adjustment now. but i sure could use a little more ojt (on the job traning). like one or two more times. the only thing i would add to you post is to have a very strong / bright flashlight maybe even one of those led head lamps. so your hands will still be free to do all the wrenchen. thanks again to all who were there.
best reguards
don c.

BuddyRich
07-14-2009, 12:40 AM
They are 25 MM shims. Same as in this auction which has Triumph as one of the makes. I have never used anything bigger the 285 and nothing smaller than 255. So some of those in that kit will be kinda of useless.Which also means you can get them at your local Honda ,Truimph, dealers .I think Kawasaki also uses them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-CBX-Valve-Shim-Shims-2-50-to-3-10-25mm-size_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQhashZitem5d256f0eccQQitemZ400059993804QQptZMotor cyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5335830059&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5335830059%26amp%3Btoolid%3D10001 %26amp%3Bmpre%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%25 2Febaymotors%252FHonda-CBX-Valve-Shim-Shims-2-50-to-3-10-25mm-size_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQhashZitem5d256f0eccQQitemZ400059993804QQptZMotor cyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

Honda
CB750, CB750C, CB750F, CB750K, CB750SC dohc (79-83)
CB900, CB900C, CB900F, CB1000C, CB1100F, CBX (all)
Triumph
Hinckly triples and fours
Speed Triple, Tiger, Daytona, Trophy, Sprint
Yamaha
SRX250, XT250
TT350, XT350 (86-00)
XJ600 Seca II (92-98)
XVZ12 XVZ13 Venture Royale Royal Star (83-93) XVZ1200, XVZ12
VMX1200 V-Max (85-02) Vmax, VMX12
FJ1100, FJ1200 (84-93)

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 10:14 AM
Hmmm, seems like those little foam thingies sealing the crankcase vent connection to the air plenums might not be available. Has anyone had any luck replacing them? The foam rings to which I refer go around the openings on both sides of #22 in the parts breakdown below, but I sure can't find any sign of a seal or foam ring in that diagram:33199
Goose

N3FOL
07-14-2009, 10:16 AM
In the early 90's, a company in Cincinnati made a video on how to perform valve adjustments, replace timing belt, etc. on a Taurus SHO. I bought one and it is always a nice refresher to watch before I attempt another valve adjustment/check. If a video can be made for the Venture, I will for sure buy one. :sun:

gunboat
07-14-2009, 10:28 AM
goose those foam gaskets on my bike. 1-was oil soaked and tore appart trying to remove it and the other one was ok. but i asked ponch about his and he had left them off. this breather does fit real close in to the air box. but i will take it back apart & use some rtv to seal the box.
best reguards
don c.

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 10:46 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about just leaving them off - like you say, those boxes do fit together fairly tight, and even the oil mist up in there should provide an additional dust filter for whatever air gets sucked in.

I have just seen so many of them deteriorated and coming apart when I help people work on their carbs I thought I'd try to find the replacement info to post in these instructions. I was surprised to not find it in the parts breakdown.
Goose

GaThumper
07-14-2009, 10:50 AM
Great Job! I will definately be using this soon, since the '01 I bought has just turned 25k. Maybe I can wait until winter, we'll see.

I just finished the valve job on my old '79 GS1000E (inline 4 with big 'ol shims!) and I bought the special tool for depressing the buckets and wouldn't have wanted to do the job without it. One of the guys on the GS Resources had created an Excel spreadsheet that was pretty nice. You entered the original clearance (in inch or mm) and the installed shim and it calculated the probable replacement shim. I'll probably come up with one for my Venture. If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to share.

One comment, and this is just what I was told about the GS. They recommend NOT touching the shims with a magnet. The concern was magnetizing the shim and attracting any metal shavings/bits to the shim and possibly wearing/scarring the cam. I'm not sure if this is really an issue, or an issue that is specific to the GS, but I'll probably not use a magnet on mine if I can get them out without one. On the GS I used a small screw driver to pop them up, and a couple of different small needlenose to remove them.

Thanks again for a great writeup. Together with the manual it will make the job a little less intimidating! Definately looks like a job NOT for the feint of heart. If I trusted anyone else to work on my bikes, I might pay to have it done, but to them IT's just a JOB, to me SHE's my BABY!

James <><

Ponch
07-14-2009, 10:56 AM
Yeah, I left mine off cause they dissolved. I haven't looked into replacing them yet. Probably could place an O ring in there if needed.

Goose, the only add-ons I would entertain is the need for a long ratchet or breaker bar while turning the crank over. With a short ratchet, its real hard to find the mark without over shooting it.

The other is , I remember squiggly lines on both sides of the valve cover, both on the exhaust side, one on each cylinder next to the center. Might want verify my response. I'm old, I forget easy. Don't turn the cover around. It has to match the same orientation as the cylinder head.

Article looks great to me.

Ponch

RedRider
07-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Goose,

Great writeup. Thank you.

A couple of items you may want to include.

1) What is the special tool? P/N and source
2) What is the required shim kit? P/N and source (BuddyRich input seemed to have it but the link didn't work - would prefer a source other than an EBay seller even though it may cost more).
3) P/N for valve cover gasket (if needed to be replaced).
4) Valve clearance tolerances (from the repair manual).
5) How do you rotate the engine? I'm sure this is in the manual also. Does the cover exposing the nut used to rotate the engine require a replacement gasket?
6) Nut size for rotating the engine? Need to make sure we have the right socket available.

Just minor details, but will make it a more complete write up.

Again, very well done. Thank you for your continued excellence in sharing your Venture mechanical expertise.

RR

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 12:04 PM
Yeah, I left mine off cause they dissolved. I haven't looked into replacing them yet. Probably could place an O ring in there if needed.
Yes, I thought of the O-ring as an option, but have some doubts. It would need to be a fairly thin one and stretched a bit tight to conform to those tight corners, and even though the two boxes fit together with a close fit on the part that slides in, they do not necessarily stay pulled together. The two screws on the front where the vent hose connects keeps that side together, but the rear of the box can spread apart a little. The original foam strip takes up any variation here, but an O-ring must be compressed evenly to do any good.
Goose, the only add-ons I would entertain is the need for a long ratchet or breaker bar while turning the crank over. With a short ratchet, its real hard to find the mark without over shooting it.
You are right, it is difficult to perfectly align the timing marks with a short wrench, but that is only needed to check the valve timing index marks on the cams. For just checking the valve clearance, having the timing mark within an inch either direction would not make any difference.
The other is , I remember squiggly lines on both sides of the valve cover, both on the exhaust side, one on each cylinder next to the center. Might want verify my response. I'm old, I forget easy. Don't turn the cover around. It has to match the same orientation as the cylinder head.
Hope we are talking about the same thing here, I think we are - we may need Tom to go dig one of those old gaskets out of the trash to verify for us. From what I remember, the squiggle in the head/gasket/cover was on both sides, meaning near the plug for both cylinder #1 and #3, but it was only on one side of each plug. Meaning that if you looked down at the cylinder head with the cover off, you would see the squiggle on the edge in back of each plug on #1 and #3, but not on the edge in front of each plug. In fact, I just found a drawing on page 4-18 of the shop manual that seems to show the little wave on the head on the exhaust side of the plug for each cylinder. Your reference to it that way is much better, and I'll refine the wording.
Article looks great to me.

Ponch
See my comments above - thanx!
Goose

brainfart
07-14-2009, 12:15 PM
EXCELLENT write-up - wish I was a bit closer to ya'll....

Anyone in AZ have the same expertise / knowledge / patience???

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Goose,

Great writeup. Thank you.

A couple of items you may want to include.

1) What is the special tool? P/N and source
YM-33961 - available from any Yamaha shop, or a web search identifies many providers - seems to be a ripoff price of around $70
2) What is the required shim kit? P/N and source (BuddyRich input seemed to have it but the link didn't work - would prefer a source other than an EBay seller even though it may cost more).
As BuddyRich said, our shims are 25mm - to the best of my knowledge, any 25mm shim is the same, so source is immaterial - many can be found with a web search. Most starter kits seem to be around $120, but they are lacking some significant sizes, such as 265 and 275. In addition, they only have two each of the sizes that ARE there, so if you want to put together your own kit, I think it will be about $150 to start. It looks to me like most newer bikes (except Triumphs) all use much smaller shims, with the 25mm size being much more popular back in the 80s and 90s.
3) P/N for valve cover gasket (if needed to be replaced).
This absolutely MUST be replaced - I will include the number before I get done.
4) Valve clearance tolerances (from the repair manual).
RTFM
5) How do you rotate the engine? I'm sure this is in the manual also. Does the cover exposing the nut used to rotate the engine require a replacement gasket?
Good question - the cover has an O-ring that should generally be fine for re-use, but if it ever leaks, the replacement is just a matter of two screws.
6) Nut size for rotating the engine? Need to make sure we have the right socket available.
19mm, I think - not real special. I didn't think about including it, since anyone who would tackle a job like this without a full set of metric sockets and other common tools is in for a rude awakening anyway!
Just minor details, but will make it a more complete write up.

Again, very well done. Thank you for your continued excellence in sharing your Venture mechanical expertise.

RRI do appreciate your thoughts and comments - I've included some responses above, but I'll have to think about how much to add to the writeup - it is already way too long. I wasn't trying to write a new tech manual, just provide more detail and some clarification that it does not have. Virtually all of that information is in the manual, and that is why I provided the appropriate page numbers to print out before someone starts the job. I think I'll probably just include this and other selected posts to the thread when I move it into the tech library - that way the info will be there without making the writeup even longer.

Because of the limited applicability of the stupid $70 tool, as well as the fact that newer bikes do not seem to be using those big 25mm shims, so a big investment in the kit may not get good payback, looking to borrow one seems like the best idea to me. Thanx again for the thoughts,
Goose

RandyR
07-14-2009, 01:16 PM
http://www.oldbikebarn.com/ has the valve shim tool for $38.41. The same tool is used on the 1st Gens and origonal vMax. I have one on order from them. The Sudco catalog lists a cheaper valve shim tool but it is a mistake - the wrong tool.

see thread K&L Supply Co makes Yamaha Tools - VentureRider.Org

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 01:20 PM
They are 25 MM shims. Same as in this auction which has Triumph as one of the makes. I have never used anything bigger the 285 and nothing smaller than 255. So some of those in that kit will be kinda of useless.Which also means you can get them at your local Honda ,Truimph, dealers .I think Kawasaki also uses them.

Hey guys, I just found a neat service that will swap up to 5 shims for $12 (includes shipping). :thumbsup2:
Maybe your best option if trying to do this yourself, and if you have a kit, that is a great way to get rid of those useless sizes. Here is the link:
http://store.albaaction.com/shop/ALBA-SHIM-EX.html

Buddy, next time I or someone else wants to use your kit, why don't you just tell them what sizes to order and which ones to return out of the kit?

Goose

RedRider
07-14-2009, 01:41 PM
http://www.oldbikebarn.com/ has the valve shim tool for $38.41. The same tool is used on the 1st Gens and origonal vMax. I have one on order from them. The Sudco catalog lists a cheaper valve shim tool but it is a mistake - the wrong tool.

see thread K&L Supply Co makes Yamaha Tools - VentureRider.Org (http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37433)

Is this the same tool needed for the 2nd Gen? The OBB fitment guideline did not include the 2nd Gen bikes.

RR

RandyR
07-14-2009, 01:55 PM
shh ! don't tell OBB. He'll raise his price.

Hopefully I'll have it in hand in a few days and can confirm, but BuddyRich confirmed the 1st gen and 2nd gen tools are the same, which is what I gleaned from looking at the special tools list and xrefing part numbers.

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 01:55 PM
Is this the same tool needed for the 2nd Gen? The OBB fitment guideline did not include the 2nd Gen bikes.

RR
I just checked the service manual for the XVZ1200, and the valve tool it shows looks very different than the one for the 2nd gen (different part number too). There is always a chance the tool would still work on both motors, but it is not the same tool. Of course, there were only 72 different models of those old antique 1st gen bikes, so there might be multiple different valve tools for them too! My expertise, such as it is, is limited to the RSV. :080402gudl_prv:
Goose

UPDATE: The XVZ13DS supplementary service manual for the 85 models DOES show the same tool as the 2nd gens use. So that keeps the question wide open - apparently SOME antiques use the same tool as we do, but not all of 'em.

RandyR
07-14-2009, 02:06 PM
I just checked the service manual for the XVZ1200, and the valve tool it shows looks very different than the one for the 2nd gen (different part number too). There is always a chance the tool would still work on both motors, but it is not the same tool. Of course, there were only 72 different models of those old antique 1st gen bikes, so there might be multiple different valve tools for them too! My expertise, such as it is, is limited to the RSV. :080402gudl_prv:
Goose

UPDATE: The XVZ13DS supplementary service manual for the 85 models DOES show the same tool as the 2nd gens use. So that keeps the question wide open - apparently SOME antiques use the same tool as we do, but not all of 'em.

I would recommend waiting until I receive my tool from OBB and can confirm its the right tool. Its been 2 weeks since I placed the order, so it should be here soon.

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 02:11 PM
shh ! don't tell OBB. He'll raise his price.

Hopefully I'll have it in hand in a few days and can confirm, but BuddyRich confirmed the 1st gen and 2nd gen tools are the same, which is what I gleaned from looking at the special tools list and xrefing part numbers.
Well, keep us posted. If it turns out to be the right tool, I'd consider buying one and putting a shim kit together just to have it here in North Texass.
Goose

Cougar
07-14-2009, 03:17 PM
I just used weather stripping (more dense) that was sticky on one side
to take the place of the oiled soaked one's been working fine
ever since.
Jeff

BuddyRich
07-14-2009, 03:51 PM
Goose, I'll be doing mine in the next month or so, I'll take a bunch of pics to add to your write up.

N3FOL
07-14-2009, 04:01 PM
With my experience with overhead gaskets, but not on motorcycle gaskets, I recommend applying a small amount of RTV on the bends of the gasket and not so much on the straight sections as well and off course the lump sections will need RTV.

N3FOL
07-14-2009, 04:02 PM
Goose, I'll be doing mine in the next month or so, I'll take a bunch of pics to add to your write up.

How about a pic of your Tappet / Shim holder.

Tom
07-14-2009, 04:10 PM
Goose, I'll be doing mine in the next month or so, I'll take a bunch of pics to add to your write up.
Buddy,When you do it give me a yell,Ill bring the camera and be that 3RD hand..Need to go thru it all again.Tom

BuddyRich
07-14-2009, 04:58 PM
Will holler Tom

The tool looks like 35-3462 .... $38
http://www.justatv.com/pages/valve_shim_tools/valve_shim_tools.htm


http://www.justatv.com/pages/valve_shim_tools/valve_7.jpg

V7Goose
07-14-2009, 06:08 PM
GREAT info Buddy! But I edited your post to change the number. 3462 and 3470 look the same in the picture, but the web site says 3462 is for the xvz1200/1300. I think I'll order one at that price!
Goose

Squeeze
07-14-2009, 06:58 PM
GREAT info Buddy! But I edited your post to change the number. 3462 and 3470 look the same in the picture, but the web site says 3462 is for the xvz1200/1300. I think I'll order one at that price!
Goose

3462 is what i use for Vmax and 1Gens. You probably need to hollow out the Back of the Cam Profile because there are Protrusions in the Casting of the Cyl.Head which can prevent full depressing the Bucket. I needed to do this, because the Valve Clearance was so tight, we couldn't get the Shim out of the Bucket without modifying the Tool. I'll take a Pic tomorrow.

BuddyRich
07-14-2009, 07:02 PM
Squeeze, Did you try going in from the other direction. I used the same tool on both first and second gens with no problem. Changing the direction you go in from and the position of the lobe can make a big difference on getting or not getting the shim outta the bucket

Squeeze
07-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Squeeze, Did you try going in from the other direction. I used the same tool on both first and second gens with no problem. Changing the direction you go in from and the position of the lobe can make a big difference on getting or not getting the shim outta the bucket

Yes, we tried both Sides, but when inserting from the inner Side, the Cam was just not high enough to get the Shim out. It worked from the outer Side, but only after hollowing (grinding out behind the Cam Profile). It was about 1/100 mm away from pulling the Camshaft. That was an 1 Hour PITA-Job only for that single Shim. It went from 285 to 255, from what i saw there, the Valve never closed fully.

btw
I'd recommend using a 32mm Socket to turn the Flywheel directly, not to use the 19mm Head of the Flywheel-Bolt.

RandyR
07-14-2009, 07:18 PM
Looks like a good source for the 25mm shims also.

http://www.cyclewareables.com/pages/street_engine_valve_shims/valveshims.htm

GuthDaddy17
07-14-2009, 11:15 PM
I'd like to do mine when you do yours Buddy. :missingtooth:
Let me know when and where and I'll be there! :banana: Also, what shims are you getting low on, seems like it was between 265 and 272???
I'll be sure to add a few to the kit. ;)

BuddyRich
07-14-2009, 11:23 PM
I'll have to check Larry, to see what's in there after last weekend. I'll let you and Tom know a couple of weeks ahead so we can plan this.

GuthDaddy17
07-14-2009, 11:36 PM
Sounds good Buddy, looking forward to it! Maybe we can hold out for a Cold Front to move through, it would be nice if it would drop down to 102 or 103...:sun1:

SteveD
07-14-2009, 11:45 PM
I'll have to check Larry, to see what's in there after last weekend. I'll let you and Tom know a couple of weeks ahead so we can plan this.
Let me know when too, I'll come over/down. Probably should check mine ... been a few hundred miles since we did mine last.

Oh yeah. When you plan this one don't forget to include stopping by the drug store for a lot of Advil.

Ponch
07-15-2009, 09:26 AM
It looks like three bikes in line right now, I can help.

Ponch

V7Goose
07-15-2009, 09:35 AM
Let me know too - if there's beer there, I'll be happy to help drink it while I stand around and make snarky comments about any bike that looks or acts better than mine!

(and I've been know to turn a wrench or too, occasionally)
Goose

GuthDaddy17
07-15-2009, 10:44 AM
Wow, with this many "advisors" there is a good chance we can get them all back together again:crackup::crackup::crackup:

N3FOL
07-15-2009, 12:34 PM
Will holler Tom

The tool looks like 35-3462 .... $38
http://www.justatv.com/pages/valve_shim_tools/valve_shim_tools.htm


http://www.justatv.com/pages/valve_shim_tools/valve_7.jpg

I think I have the 35-2629 in my tool box. So, I may have missed it...what exactly is the type of Shim Tool (part #) for the 2nd Gens?

N3FOL
07-15-2009, 12:37 PM
It looks like three bikes in line right now, I can help.

Ponch

I think I saw somewhere in this thread that there is a total of (16) Shims, 4 Shims per jug? Am I right?

V7Goose
07-15-2009, 12:53 PM
I think I have the 35-2629 in my tool box. So, I may have missed it...what exactly is the type of Shim Tool (part #) for the 2nd Gens?
Uhhhhh, read the line above the picture...

N3FOL
07-15-2009, 12:54 PM
I think I have the 35-2629 in my tool box. So, I may have missed it...what exactly is the type of Shim Tool (part #) for the 2nd Gens?

If it is the 35-2629 or the other part to the right of it, how in the world would you hold the tool and lift the cam lobe...is the stem long enough for leverage?

Ponch
07-15-2009, 01:28 PM
If it is the 35-2629 or the other part to the right of it, how in the world would you hold the tool and lift the cam lobe...is the stem long enough for leverage?

On the proper tool (35-3462), there's a hex on the center of the cam that the tool fits on. When you rotate the crank/cam, the tool rotates with the cam.

RandyR
07-15-2009, 01:57 PM
They say a picture is worth 1000 words....

N3FOL
07-15-2009, 02:55 PM
On the proper tool (35-3462), there's a hex on the center of the cam that the tool fits on. When you rotate the crank/cam, the tool rotates with the cam.

Thanks Ponch for enlightening me. That now makes sense to me...so the crank is turned in order to lift the cam and remove the shim. :thumbsup:

Ponch
07-15-2009, 03:37 PM
Randy Rick for the drawing...

:missingtooth:

GuthDaddy17
07-15-2009, 03:56 PM
I didn't realize thet the tool sat in a groove, :scratchchin: I'm still learning!!!:178:

BuddyRich
07-15-2009, 05:00 PM
Thanks Ponch for enlightening me. That now makes sense to me...so the crank is turned in order to lift the cam and remove the shim. :thumbsup:

Doesn't lift the cam. Its got major bolts and bearings holding it down. What the tool does is push the shim bucket (and the valve) down giving you clearance to remove the shim.
There really isn't any groove.What the drawing is showing isn't a groove but the space between the 2 shim buckets

N3FOL
07-16-2009, 09:56 AM
Got it BuddyRich. I now understand the concept. As we talk more about valve adjustment, someone may be able to put together an Excel file and list parts and part numbers and where to buy them for parts needed to be replaced ie: gasket, RTV, etc.

Do you know if there is a pic of an opened 'valve cover' on the Venture floating around in this forum? I'm curious how it looks like in there.

V7Goose
07-16-2009, 10:04 AM
Got it BuddyRich. I now understand the concept. As we talk more about valve adjustment, someone may be able to put together an Excel file and list parts and part numbers and where to buy them for parts needed to be replaced ie: gasket, RTV, etc.

Do you know if there is a pic of an opened 'valve cover' on the Venture floating around in this forum? I'm curious how it looks like in there.
Look at the shop manual - that is why I included the exact page numbers in the original post.
Goose

N3FOL
07-16-2009, 10:20 AM
Sorry for being so picky. Perhaps a colored digital picture is nice.

When I get a chance this afternoon, I will take pics of my shim collection that I use on my T-SHO. Not sure if they are the same as the Venture. Do you have a pic of a shim?

Squeeze
07-16-2009, 10:23 AM
Sorry for being so picky. Perhaps a colored digital picture is nice.

When I get a chance this afternoon, I will take pics of my shim collection that I use on my T-SHO. Not sure if they are the same as the Venture. Do you have a pic of a shim?

Well, imagine a bigger Washer without a Hole in it ??

N3FOL
07-16-2009, 11:52 AM
Hmmmm, that is not hard to imagine. Thanks anyway, I'll post the pic and find out what members think if I have the same shim or not.

V7Goose
07-16-2009, 06:08 PM
A picture of a shim will be of no value unless it is laying on a very accurate ruler.

If it is a 25mm shim, it will fit. If it is not 25mm, it will not.
Goose

N3FOL
07-17-2009, 12:47 PM
FWIW, attached is a Shim pic next to a US Quarter with inscription of 2500 (not easily seen) and next to it is the special tool that I used to remove Shims on my Taurus SHO while doing my valve check / adjustment. I do have a caliper and I'll check if the Shim is 25mm in thickness.

RedRider
07-17-2009, 12:52 PM
FWIW, attached is a Shim pic next to a US Quarter with inscription of 2500 (not easily seen) and next to it is the special tool that I used to remove Shims on my Taurus SHO while doing my valve check / adjustment. I do have a caliper and I'll check if the Shim is 25mm in thickness.

(I suspect you know this and it was just a terminology typo - but just in case...)

The thickness is stamped on the back. 25 mm is the desired diameter.

RR

N3FOL
07-17-2009, 12:59 PM
Yes, RedRider. You are right...25mm in thickness is not possible for a Shim to fit in the Venture. It is 'Diameter'. Heck, that is even thicker than my wallet. :crying:

It is nice to know the spec. of 25mm diameter of a Shim...curious when I get home tonight and measure my Shims.

Anyway, we've had some T-SHO owners who needed a certain size of Shim that was not readily available from a Ford dealership but were successful in getting the right size from a motorcycle shop ie: Yamaha dealer. (This was in 1995)

Thistledown
07-17-2009, 07:14 PM
Are there a few riders in the Richmond/ Fredricksburg, Virginia area that would like to get together and buy tool and shim kit to do this work? There or four going is together would ease the pain and a little get together to do the work would be fun.. any Takers ?

V7Goose
07-18-2009, 11:25 AM
Just an FYI - I moved the original post and a few selected responses to the Tech Library, with some minor revisions here and there.

May you all have many happy hours adjusting valves!
Goose

Sleeperhawk
07-18-2009, 05:26 PM
Hmmm, seems like those little foam thingies sealing the crankcase vent connection to the air plenums might not be available. Has anyone had any luck replacing them? The foam rings to which I refer go around the openings on both sides of #22 in the parts breakdown below, but I sure can't find any sign of a seal or foam ring in that diagram:33199
Goose

Looks like part 22 contains the foam things which means the that part comes with the foam rings.

Sleeperhawk
07-18-2009, 05:36 PM
They are 25 MM shims. Same as in this auction which has Triumph as one of the makes. I have never used anything bigger the 285 and nothing smaller than 255. So some of those in that kit will be kinda of useless.Which also means you can get them at your local Honda ,Truimph, dealers .I think Kawasaki also uses them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-CBX-Valve-Shim-Shims-2-50-to-3-10-25mm-size_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQhashZitem5d256f0eccQQitemZ400059993804QQptZMotor cyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?campid=5335830059&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Fcampid%3D5335830059%26amp%3Btoolid%3D10001 %26amp%3Bmpre%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%25 2Febaymotors%252FHonda-CBX-Valve-Shim-Shims-2-50-to-3-10-25mm-size_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQhashZitem5d256f0eccQQitemZ400059993804QQptZMotor cyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

Honda
CB750, CB750C, CB750F, CB750K, CB750SC dohc (79-83)
CB900, CB900C, CB900F, CB1000C, CB1100F, CBX (all)
Triumph
Hinckly triples and fours
Speed Triple, Tiger, Daytona, Trophy, Sprint
Yamaha
SRX250, XT250
TT350, XT350 (86-00)
XJ600 Seca II (92-98)
XVZ12 XVZ13 Venture Royale Royal Star (83-93) XVZ1200, XVZ12
VMX1200 V-Max (85-02) Vmax, VMX12
FJ1100, FJ1200 (84-93)

Ok, still slightly lost or overloaded with info here.

The shim kits come with two of everything, but what if I need more than two?
So my bike is tore apart until I can order more of the shims I would need, right ?

Also, unless I missed it some where in all of this, are the spark plugs removed too? to make it easier to turn the engine. Remember, Mechanic and I will be doing this since I have the ticking noise now, 28,000 miles on the bike.

So I am looking at parts about $250, between shim kit, special tool, some kind of feeler gauge, gaskets, plugs, anti freeze, any other tool needed?

V7Goose
07-18-2009, 06:03 PM
Ok, still slightly lost or overloaded with info here.

The shim kits come with two of everything, but what if I need more than two?
So my bike is tore apart until I can order more of the shims I would need, right ?

Also, unless I missed it some where in all of this, are the spark plugs removed too? to make it easier to turn the engine. Remember, Mechanic and I will be doing this since I have the ticking noise now, 28,000 miles on the bike.

So I am looking at parts about $250, between shim kit, special tool, some kind of feeler gauge, gaskets, plugs, anti freeze, any other tool needed?
The basic shim kits probably won't be good enough for the first job or two - I'd pretty much bet it will need more than two of one size or another. But like I said in the original post, there is no way of knowing for sure. A lot of it will depend on what sizes get taken out of the engine.

The shims can be bought individually for about $5 each at most bike shops, and many of the service departments will just swap shims with you for free. The drag with either of those options is that you have to either keep making trips down to the shop every time you find a valve that needs a different shim, or you have to do a LOT of extra work to first pull all the shims that need to be changed, decide what size new shim you probably need for each of those valves, then go get the shims and start all over again putting them in and re-checking the clearance.

All of the above is why I keep suggesting you try to find someone who already has a shim kit and is willing to loan it out. It really does not make sense to build your own unless you intend to help a lot of other members do this job. But if you do start a new kit, the first thing to do would be to trade in all the shims below 250 and above 280 for more shims between 260 and 275 - that would give you a much better chance of having what you needed.

And yes, you do pull the plugs - that is mentioned in #4 of "The Job" in the first post.

At 28,000 miles, the valve check is due, but I suspect you won't need to change many shims that early. My guess is that a few of the valves will be fairly close to minimum tolerance, but still OK; however, by the time the second valve service is due around 50,000 or 60,000 miles those particular valves will have moved to less than minimum, and you will need to change four of five of the shims by then. Unfortunately, you have to do all that work just to check the clearance and know for sure if any changes are needed. :080402gudl_prv:
Goose

tim44
07-18-2009, 11:58 PM
Ok you CO people.
Do any of you have the shim tool and or shim kits. Maybe we need to set up a time for a maintenance day. You know set valves and adjust floats and drink beer:thumbsup: Respond or pm me and we will see if we can make something happen.

N3FOL
07-19-2009, 11:54 AM
(I suspect you know this and it was just a terminology typo - but just in case...)

The thickness is stamped on the back. 25 mm is the desired diameter.

RR

This is what my used T-SHO Shim measured on the caliper...see pic. (Slightly bigger than what is stated in this thread).

V7Goose
07-19-2009, 12:19 PM
This is what my used T-SHO Shim measured on the caliper...see pic. (Slightly bigger than what is stated in this thread).
29mm is another common shim size for older engines, and as you noted, it is not the same as 25mm. Now wasn't that easy?
Goose

N3FOL
07-19-2009, 01:15 PM
I was just hoping that the Shims I already have would be the same exact Shims for a motorcycle. Oh well, I still have 20,000 miles to go before my first valve adjustment. I hope to be ready then and have all the parts needed on hand.

I may start a parts list sometime soon.

N3FOL

Thistledown
07-22-2009, 10:06 AM
I just called 4 dealers in the Newport News,Richmond, Fredricksburg , Va area and got the following prices for just valve adjustments: $280,$280.$237.$450. It would seem that for those of us whose bikes are still under warranty that this might be a good thing to have the dealer do. When I look at the cost of the tool and the kit and extra shims and the fact that this is somthing that I will only do lets say now and then again at say 100,00 I may not be worth it. I will admitt though that taking my bike to a dealer scares the crap out of me, i had them do the required 600 mile check but now 48000 I've done everything else myself. As I said in an earleir post, I would like to do it if we could get a group together.

FreezyRider
07-22-2009, 10:37 AM
I just called 4 dealers in the Newport News,Richmond, Fredricksburg , Va area and got the following prices for just valve adjustments: $280,$280.$237.$450. It would seem that for those of us whose bikes are still under warranty that this might be a good thing to have the dealer do. When I look at the cost of the tool and the kit and extra shims and the fact that this is somthing that I will only do lets say now and then again at say 100,00 I may not be worth it. I will admitt though that taking my bike to a dealer scares the crap out of me, i had them do the required 600 mile check but now 48000 I've done everything else myself. As I said in an earleir post, I would like to do it if we could get a group together.

I may be wrong, but I doubt that this service is a covered warranty item. It's like having to replace tires or change oil.....it is a regularly scheduled maintenance item, not a defect that must be repaired.
Good luck.

Joe

V7Goose
07-22-2009, 10:52 AM
I may be wrong, but I doubt that this service is a covered warranty item. It's like having to replace tires or change oil.....it is a regularly scheduled maintenance item, not a defect that must be repaired.
Good luck.
Joe
I don't think he was suggesting the service would be covered under warranty, just that it might be a bit safer to keep the warranty is effect; therefore, cost justified.

IMHO, considering how much work is involved, anything under $300 is certainly very fair, and I would actually expect the normal cost to be more than that - closer to $400 or even $500.

But I also don't think there is any warranty risk to do this yourself. There is very little warranty repair that would ever be related to misadjusted valves, and even then, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove that something you did (or did not do) caused the failure. If you have any record at all that you performed the valve check as specified in the service manual, there is almost no way they could ever deny warranty work, even for a burned valve. This record can be something as simple as a note you make on the service record (legally called a "contemporaneous record" if you make the notes when the events actually happen), and it is strengthened by any receipts for supplies needed by that service, such as the valve cover gaskets. Contemporaneous records are legal for the IRS, so they darned tootin' should stand up against Yamahaha!

Goose

Ponch
07-22-2009, 11:22 AM
IMHO, considering how much work is involved, anything under $300 is certainly very fair, and I would actually expect the normal cost to be more than that - closer to $400 or even $500.

When mine was due (14,000 miles ago), I priced the job at three dealers. I also got a wide range (from $200.00 to $400.00). After having done this, I think the job is well worth $400.00, especially at dealer ship per hour rates. I was too cheap to pay it .

Having said this, there is no way I would let my dealer do this as long as I could still twist wrenches. To me this was a lot of fun. The companionship I enjoyed with brother VR.org members and getting to know some I didn't know that well was an added plus.

Get a shim kit, the valve tool, some reference materials and go to it. Better yet, have a valve maintenance party with some folks who have done it before. Just don't tear too many bikes down at one time. :yikes:

FreezyRider
07-22-2009, 11:31 AM
I don't think he was suggesting the service would be covered under warranty, just that it might be a bit safer to keep the warranty is effect; therefore, cost justified.

IMHO, considering how much work is involved, anything under $300 is certainly very fair, and I would actually expect the normal cost to be more than that - closer to $400 or even $500.

But I also don't think there is any warranty risk to do this yourself. There is very little warranty repair that would ever be related to misadjusted valves, and even then, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove that something you did (or did not do) caused the failure. If you have any record at all that you performed the valve check as specified in the service manual, there is almost no way they could ever deny warranty work, even for a burned valve. This record can be something as simple as a note you make on the service record (legally called a "contemporaneous record" if you make the notes when the events actually happen), and it is strengthened by any receipts for supplies needed by that service, such as the valve cover gaskets. Contemporaneous records are legal for the IRS, so they darned tootin' should stand up against Yamahaha!

Goose


Ahhhhh......I didn't interpret it that way, but in rereading it I see that it could be. Thanks.
Joe

N3FOL
07-22-2009, 11:52 AM
When mine was due (14,000 miles ago), I priced the job at three dealers. I also got a wide range (from $200.00 to $400.00). After having done this, I think the job is well worth $400.00, especially at dealer ship per hour rates. I was too cheap to pay it .

Having said this, there is no way I would let my dealer do this as long as I could still twist wrenches. To me this was a lot of fun. The companionship I enjoyed with brother VR.org members and getting to know some I didn't know that well was an added plus.

Get a shim kit, the valve tool, some reference materials and go to it. Better yet, have a valve maintenance party with some folks who have done it before. Just don't tear too many bikes down at one time. :yikes:


Adjusting valves on a motorcycle I think is not too difficult, since I have done numerous valve adjustments on a car in my lifetime + lots of help in this forum if you get into a roadblock. I think the key here is to read about it and understand the concept and take your time and have all the parts on hand before starting the project. I also don't think that I can take my bike to a dealership and have them do the adjustment and pay at least $300 + for the work.

Acquiring a valve tool is not expensive. What is a waste of money IMO is to buy a complete shim kit and only use certain sizes, if needed. If there is a Venture Rider Shim Kit that can be rented (with a deposit) and if you use certain sizes in that kit and replace them with new ones when finished may be a good approach to this shim kit dilemna. Once the kit has been returned to the rightful caretaker, the deposit can be refunded...the benefit here...members can also throw in their used shims in the kit for other members to use. :scratchchin:

Ponch
07-22-2009, 01:13 PM
What is a waste of money IMO is to buy a complete shim kit and only use certain sizes, if needed. If there is a Venture Rider Shim Kit that can be rented (with a deposit) and if you use certain sizes in that kit and replace them with new ones when finished may be a good approach to this shim kit dilemna. Once the kit has been returned to the rightful caretaker, the deposit can be refunded...the benefit here...members can also throw in their used shims in the kit for other members to use. :scratchchin:

If nobody has one near you, I'll send you mine (when I get it). You replace any shims taken w/ the ones you remove and send it back. You won't even need to buy the tool. :thumbsup2:

Ponch

N3FOL
07-22-2009, 02:44 PM
If nobody has one near you, I'll send you mine (when I get it). You replace any shims taken w/ the ones you remove and send it back. You won't even need to buy the tool. :thumbsup2:

Ponch

Ponch, I will happily accept that offer. Right now, I don't need to have a valve adjustment soon but I will certainly contact you once I am ready. :ice_thy-vi101212101

Seaking
07-22-2009, 05:29 PM
I called the 2 Yamaha'ish dealerships in town here about doing a valve adjustment on my 06 RSV and they couldn't quote me a price right away as they never done one before.. (too busy selling bikes than doing any maintenance training I'm guessing)..

There are a lot of jobs I'm not afraid to do on my bike but digging into the engine's guts is something I'm hesitant about..

There so many tasks I'm reading that you guys dig into it would be great to learn how with a hands on seminar akin to your Maintenance Days.. unfortunately, we're up here in Nova Scotia.. I'm heading out to see someone in Pennsylvania next month about brakes. Perhaps later or next year I can manage a trip down to Texas to see the group and get some 'learnin' under my belt..

I'm currently installing leveling links and synching up carbs for other RSV riders in my area, and showing how to ride the revs up for more fun riding experience.. I'd love to be able to do more but would love the opportunity to learn hands on by some experts..

I know them wrench turners at the dealerships are 'certified' but they worry me when they can't answer a simpler question.. =( One looked at me and asked "how many CC's are Ventures??" let alone remembering it has 4 cylindres when I asked to purchase spark plugs.. Erhm could I have 4 of them please.. it's for a Venture after all.. and all I got back was blink blink.. there's light behind them eyes if you look close enough..

RedRider
07-22-2009, 07:11 PM
Just called my dealer (and they are a pretty good one) and asked about a valve shim adjustment. With tax, just under $250 - not bad.

I also asked about setting the float levels - $350 - ouch!

I advised the service manager that I will probably be doing these both myself and asked about exchanging shims. He stated that they would just swap shims if they have what I need. Call him when I am doing it and he will check to see if they have the right shim in one of the tech's kits. They will swap them straight up.

I am lucky to have a good dealer to work with.

RR

V7Goose
07-22-2009, 08:40 PM
Just called my dealer (and they are a pretty good one) and asked about a valve shim adjustment. With tax, just under $250 - not bad.

I also asked about setting the float levels - $350 - ouch!

I advised the service manager that I will probably be doing these both myself and asked about exchanging shims. He stated that they would just swap shims if they have what I need. Call him when I am doing it and he will check to see if they have the right shim in one of the tech's kits. They will swap them straight up.

I am lucky to have a good dealer to work with.
RR
That makes me think they didn't really check the book on the estimated time for the valves, and they probably have very little real experience working on these bikes. Setting the floats is much less real work than checking the valves!
Goose

pktexas
07-22-2009, 10:04 PM
Goose, what would be some signs of a RSV needing a valve adjustment on a routine maintenance schedule. The reason I ask is that my 05 RSV has over 27500, took it to the dealer last week to get a new Avon rear tire after over 13k on it. So I asked them about the 27k valve check. The service guy at the dealer gave me the price of 450, but he said they would see if it needed it. He later called and told me not to spend the money on it. The bike runs great, sounds fine and I still get around 38-43 mpg depending on riding.

Great write up on the procedure, I do my own valve adjustments on my 1100, but the RSV looks a little more involved. But hope to learn it someday. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

V7Goose
07-22-2009, 10:16 PM
Goose, what would be some signs of a RSV needing a valve adjustment on a routine maintenance schedule. The reason I ask is that my 05 RSV has over 27500, took it to the dealer last week to get a new Avon rear tire after over 13k on it. So I asked them about the 27k valve check. The service guy at the dealer gave me the price of 450, but he said they would see if it needed it. He later called and told me not to spend the money on it. The bike runs great, sounds fine and I still get around 38-43 mpg depending on riding.

Great write up on the procedure, I do my own valve adjustments on my 1100, but the RSV looks a little more involved. But hope to learn it someday. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately, there are generally no signs that a valve adjustment is needed until way past the safe point. Our engine usually has the valves get tighter as they wear, not looser, so there is no noise. At the point your MPG drops dramatically you probably have a valve that is not closing, which can cause a burnt valve and an expensive repair. The only safe route is to check the valves on the schedule provided by Yamaha (every 27,000 miles).
Goose

g man
02-27-2010, 12:26 PM
this among carb adjustment i would like to be able to do myself.do not trust dealer.i have tool and manual and your article makes it a lot clearer but not confident enough first time around.are you or know of someone who would teach me on this procedure hands on. ciao g man

N3FOL
02-27-2010, 02:58 PM
this among carb adjustment i would like to be able to do myself.do not trust dealer.i have tool and manual and your article makes it a lot clearer but not confident enough first time around.are you or know of someone who would teach me on this procedure hands on. ciao g man

I am interested on watching how this Valve Adjustmnet is done on the Venture...will keep an eye on this thread.

V7Goose
02-27-2010, 09:07 PM
I'm happy to help anybody, but you're probably gonna have to ride that thing down here to Texas to get me involved.
Goose

Seaking
02-28-2010, 01:00 AM
I'm happy to help anybody, but you're probably gonna have to ride that thing down here to Texas to get me involved.
Goose

Hi Goose, how much time is involved to get this bit of maintenance done? I'll be down your neck of the woods in May/June and would be interested in having you show me how this is done seeing how my 2006 Midnight has over 55.000 miles on it..

Cheers M8

V7Goose
02-28-2010, 02:47 PM
The valves are a full day job - 6 to 8 hours.
Goose

ffjoe
03-15-2010, 03:15 PM
When I set TDC in the observation hole and try to measure valve clearance on #1 cylinder the cams are facing away from each other at about 5 and 7 o'clock but they are still depressing the shims. When I roll the cam and watch, I can see the shims rise and the cam finally having a clearance on exhaust valves. The bike ran fine so I know it's not out of time. What is the cam lobe's position in relation to the shim supposed to be to measure the clearance?