Passengers - How big is too big?

[Yamaman]

This may be different for different size/strength/experienced riders, but unfortunately I found out tonight the hard way that my 260 lb son is too big. And for as big as he is, I'm only about 170, and pretty new to riding this big bike. Lesson learned the hard way.

Once a week just the two of us go out to dinner together, and tonight on the way back home, we stopped at a stop sign, then as I started out, making a right turn, the Venture decided to go over, and as we all know, when it wants to go - it goes. The worst of it was that we curled around quite a bit and the fairing and right side fog lamps ended up against the stop sign pole. And what really surprised me was how much the right engine crash bar bent, and also how easy it was to bend back. I would have thought it would have had more strength than that.

So the final tally is one bent fog lamp eyebrow, cracks in the headlight surround, some scrapes on the fairing above the headlight, a tiny scrape in the windshield trim, and some scuffs on the lower portion of the windshield. Also some minor scratches at the back of the right pipe and a scrape on the bottom of the saddlebag. She's not quite as pretty as she used to be, but it's nothing that will keep me off the road as I look for replacement parts, and somebody to repair the fairing. Oh, and most importantly, not a scratch on either my son or myself.

[Yamaman]

Oh, I forgot to add that I was hoping others would post their thoughts on this subject. Do you think the cause of this mishap was the passenger weight or just rider inexperience, or both? Do others of you successfully and confidently carry passengers this size? Thanks.

[MikeM8560]

Back when my son was young about 7 we went to a ice cream stand for a couple cones. when we were leaving the lot had a little decline gling down to the road I was stoed at the bottom when Tim ( my son decided to shift his @ss and my foot sliped on some road sand towards the downhill side and over we went and came to rest on the case guard. tim held on and didnt fall off. I got it up with the help and a onlooker.

any way ive had him on my bike later on and hes a big guy now. S id have to say it all in thre ballance of course a small passenger is alot easier but you can do it. off courrse im a biger then you so i had some stabilazation to the bike.:322:

[tx2sturgis]

Ok...not to sound too damn preachy here, but you have no business hauling around a 260 pound man on the back of ANY two wheeled bike....Ok? Nobody does.

If you want to haul LARGE passengers, you need to be riding a trike, or something like a sidecar rig. Anyone who overloads the back of a bike is risking their life and the life of the passenger too.

Ok, I may catch some crap, but sometimes large ladies want a ride, and I wont do it...its not being sexist..or bigoted, or anything else. Bikes arent made to handle that weight, since I weigh about 220, I limit a passenger to about 150 or so. I once took a 170 pound young man on a ride, and they can really throw off the balance if they do something stupid, like leaning over at a stop, or leaning the wrong way in a turn. Women who are large tend to be larger in the hips, but young men tend to be large in the upper torso, and that weight up high can leverage the bike beyond your control. You are risking lives by taking large passengers on a ride. Its not that different from hauling a small child who cannot reach the pegs and hold on well. Motorcycles are NOT cars. The rider has to respond to the physical limits inherent to riding a two wheel vehicle.

No matter how tough and strong you think you are, or how big and badass the bike seems to be, you should really limit total rider and passenger weight to no more than about 400 for damn near ANY large bike. 350 would be better.

And the rider should ALWAYS...repeat...ALWAYS weigh more than the passenger. Bikes arent made to carry a large percentage of the weight behind the rear axle..handling will suffer if you do....as you found out.

I'm not griping you out...but anyone reading this needs to be aware of weight and balance, just like a pilot does when loading baggage and passengers on a small plane. No difference.

Ok...We all know plenty of couples that 'fudge' on this, but normally, the couple has spent many years riding together, and getting used to the gradual weight change, and the rider learns to compensate, and has had time to adjust to the changes, and the passenger knows how to be still and balanced on the back...I'm mainly refering to the impromtu rides given to large passengers...dont do it...your risking an accident.

[tx2sturgis]

By the way, I once had a break down on my bike a few years ago at Sturgis. I was 30 miles from the campsite, and we got the bike to the dealer to get the repairs made, but I needed a ride back to camp. A riding buddy offered to take me home on his bike. I told him I'm too big, that wont work and I dont ride 'b***h'...

I caught a ride later with a guy in a pickup heading that way...but it cost me 60 bucks the next day to get a cab ride to the dealer. Point here is, that a motorcycle should not be used to carry a large 200+ pound person on the back seat, unless its a life and death situation. I was willing to pay the money to avoid a dangerous situation.

[Yamaman]

[quote=tx2sturgis;190061]Ok...not to sound too damn preachy here, but you have no business hauling around a 260 pound man on the back of ANY two wheeled bike....Ok? Nobody does.
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I'm not griping you out...but anyone reading this needs to be aware of weight and balance, just like a pilot does when loading baggage and passengers on a small plane. No difference.
/quote]

Absolutely no offense taken here. This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. That's why I posted this. I just wish I had seen something like this sooner. It just never occurred to me that I shouldn't take my son for a ride on my bike.

[tx2sturgis]

Hey I'm glad that you guys werent hurt, other than your pride. And metal parts are fixable.

Maybe its time to get your son his OWN ride...really...he has no business being a passenger on a bike. Ever. Hes just too big. I know, father and son thing, but go out for dinner side by side in your car...and come home safe and sound.

[gibvel]

The thing you have to be careful of at stops, I've learned, is incline. However, incline or no, always stop with the bike pointed straight and the front wheel straight. With and incline you really have to be careful to stop straight. Once rolling then you can turn. If that means you stop a little farther back from the stop sign to get a rolling start, then do that. If a decline it's not so bad but you still should stop the bike straight with the front wheel straight, don't anticipate the turn when you stop.

I weigh 175 and my wife is, shall we say, less than that. I still hesitate to take her or any passenger on the bike and have to concentrate twice as hard not to make a mistake. As tx2sturgis said, with you at 170lbs, 260lbs is a lot of weight to try to balance on the back of one of these things. That's my :2cents:.

[Marcarl]

That's about the exact weight we put on together, but as was mentioned, my wife is more lighter on top than the lower end and that can make a difference. The problem as I see it, is that given the exact same senario without a passenger that bike was headed for a laydown anyways. What I read between the lines was a turned wheel before starting out, and yep, it's then: ground bound.

[CrazyHorse]

Being a pilot and avid watercraft rider I have experience with weight and balance. I have to agree with Brian of the Republic of Texas. The rider has to be heavier then the passenger. For you watercraft riders have ever noticed the instability in a watercraft with lots of rear weight it very noticeable and a little scary. Your more likey to get wobbles and or tank slapper with lots of rear weight. The front end is to light on the bike. You want more weight towards the front not the back and lower rather then higher (this doesnt mean you can still overload). Overloading anything is not good planes, boats, or motorcycles it increases instability leading to possible control loss and if you toss in a suspension or tire failure that instability increases your odds of going down. I know many of us do it and I have also but after my crash (not related to overload) I'm looking to do things a little less risky. Be careful out there.

[spear]

"but unfortunately I found out tonight the hard way that my 260 lb son is too big."

'nuf said!

[rumn1]

When I was doing MC training classes, the instructor used to say never take a passenger until you have put 3000 miles on a bike. This was for new to riding or a different bike. Huge difference in handling when I took my first passenger on the Venture. Decided to do it easy, level area, not much traffic, as I had not rode with the passenger previously. Glad I did, almost lost it a time or two. We have since learned to work together. Glad you are both okay.:080402gudl_prv:

[royalstarjac]

I have dropped my Venture on the road twice. Both times when I was pulling away from a stop and turning with the wife on the back. She's about 150 and I'm 195. One thing I found out is when it's time to go, GO. If the power is taken from the back wheel for some reason as your turning your going over.-Jack

[JeffC]

I weigh about 260 (a fat 5'10":rotf:) and my wife is about 210 (a very curvy 6'3" lady) and we ride on a 06 RSTD without any trouble at all. The bike is IMHO a bit top heavy, and when you put a passenger on it (up higher than you) it's realllly top heavy. You can't lean it with no momentum. You will fall over unless you have tree trunk legs. Just be aware that you are heavier and it will take longer to brake and not be as nimble. Also, check the air in the rear. When I have a load (passenger or my camping/road stuff) I air it up in the high 30's.

Best of luck!

[tx2sturgis]

Jeff, first you said this:
I weigh about 260 (a fat 5'10":rotf:) and my wife is about 210 (a very curvy 6'3" lady) and we ride on a 06 RSTD without any trouble at all.

No trouble at all? Then whats all this?:


The bike is IMHO a bit top heavy, and when you put a passenger on it (up higher than you) it's realllly top heavy. You can't lean it with no momentum. You will fall over unless you have tree trunk legs. Just be aware that you are heavier and it will take longer to brake and not be as nimble. Also, check the air in the rear. When I have a load (passenger or my camping/road stuff) I air it up in the high 30's.
Lets see, its top heavy, with a passenger its REALLY top heavy. You cant lean with no momentum...You will fall over unless you have tree trunk legs? Longer to stop, not as nimble, and you have to air up the shock.

Hmm...no trouble at all.

Well you made my point...you are experienced, you made adaptations, she knows how to behave on the bike, and you are EXTREMELY careful when doin it.

Hey, it is possible to make changes and carry a heavier person, but on the spur of the moment, with a bike that is not set up for it, its not such a good idea. People can get hurt that way.

[pegscraper]

I'd chalk it up to rider inexperience. A passenger is going to weigh whatever they weigh. What's the difference if the additional weight is a person or if it's a pile of luggage? A load is a load, and a heavy load will make the bike handle very differently. The person - actually any passenger regardless of size - should be advised not to shift their weight from side to side and be careful how they move even their arms around. With a little practice, a large passenger or other heavy load should not be an issue.

[tx2sturgis]

I'd chalk it up to rider inexperience. A passenger is going to weigh whatever they weigh. What's the difference if the additional weight is a person or if it's a pile of luggage? A load is a load, and a heavy load will make the bike handle very differently. The person - actually any passenger regardless of size - should be advised not to shift their weight from side to side and be careful how they move even their arms around. With a little practice, a large passenger or other heavy load should not be an issue.

The difference is that luggage doesnt move around on you, flailing its arms or shifting its torso to look at something on the ground at a stoplight. It doesnt normally have a tendancy to lean the wrong way in a turn, or jump off unexpectedly when you stop to let them off. And normally you arent loading 260 pounds of luggage, plus whatever other luggage is already on the bike.

But again, as you said, it can be done with practice...and preparations of the bike.

But as I said, I really dont think anyone that weighs 260 pounds should be on the back of a bike....a trike, maybe, but other than the boss hoss, which can handle some heavy loads, I dont think most cruisers or tourers should be hauling that much weight at the back..

Just my 2 cents.

[JeffC]

Jeff, first you said this:


No trouble at all? Then whats all this?:


Lets see, its top heavy, with a passenger its REALLY top heavy. You cant lean with no momentum...You will fall over unless you have tree trunk legs? Longer to stop, not as nimble, and you have to air up the shock.

Hmm...no trouble at all.

Well you made my point...you are experienced, you made adaptations, she knows how to behave on the bike, and you are EXTREMELY careful when doin it.

Hey, it is possible to make changes and carry a heavier person, but on the spur of the moment, with a bike that is not set up for it, its not such a good idea. People can get hurt that way.


No trouble at all, as in I have no problem doing it. I can cross the street too. It's dangerous, but I look both ways like a big boy. :rotf:

[tx2sturgis]

Well, like I said in the post about car tires mounted on a bike....do what you want.

I dont want to haul a 260 pound passenger...so I wont.

Well its time for me to go...hitting the road again...be back in 300 miles or so...

Later!

[KiteSquid]

Do you think the cause of this mishap was the passenger weight or just rider inexperience, or both?

Probally both, but more inexperience, as an experacnced rider knows his limits.


Purchase the video HERE (http://www.ridelikeapro.com/) for more help.

[wrench]

I had a Suzuki Volusia 800 before the Venture. The wife and I put about 12k miles on it, and we never had a problem with handling. I've had a couple of problems since getting the Venture with getting into tight spots, (ie. turnarounds, downhill grade) but they were my fault, not the passenger. I've been fortunate, (hate to use the work "lucky"), that I haven't dropped it or been down,,,, yet. You just have to constantly be aware of what's going on around you, either in a parking lot or on the interstate, solo or 2-up.

[Jercoupe]

then as I started out, making a right turn, the Venture decided to go over,
I think I am well qualified at droping my Venture but never have when it was moving. It was always at a total stop. Now i do carry a lot of weight on the back when im loaded with luggage( i bet i have 80-100lbs in just the bags) plus a passenger and there are times when taking off from a turn I could see how it would go right over if the engine died or i hit the brake but i don't!. I found long ago from my dirt ridin days that a little twist on the throttle will pick up the heaviest bike fast. Throttle, not brakes, has got me out of problems many times!

[CrazyHorse]

I think I am well qualified at droping my Venture but never have when it was moving. It was always at a total stop. Now i do carry a lot of weight on the back when im loaded with luggage( i bet i have 80-100lbs in just the bags) plus a passenger and there are times when taking off from a turn I could see how it would go right over if the engine died or i hit the brake but i don't!. I found long ago from my dirt ridin days that a little twist on the throttle will pick up the heaviest bike fast. Throttle, not brakes, has got me out of problems many times!


Yes throttle will pick you up same in a PWC get slow in a turn and you feel that flip coming on give it a some throttle. Throttle especially at low speeds in a turn helps balance the bike basically by centrifugal force picking it back up. (Along with proper clutch and rear brake use (not the front that will put you down in a blink of an eye one reason I hate linked brakes it upsets this balance I can feel it many cant but thats just my opinion.)

I think my concern with the overload has to do with some sort of failure of either suspension or tire or even panic braking shifting the load or enter a turn a little hot. People ride overloaded all the time think nothing of it and 99% of the time the ride goes well. You ever drive a pickup thats overloaded in the bed it gets a little squirrely driving especially in turns feels like its gonna tip over or those huge 15 passanger vans that crash on the highway because they had to much weight in the back and like 6 people die, its because of too much weight in the back and something upset that balance.

I think it comes to that critical moment like previously described when your not ready for something that upsets that delicate balance that my put you and your partner on the ground which might not have happened if you weren't overloaded. Just my opinion.

[Arcs&Sparks]

Well I've read every post to this thread and I disagree with 90% of them My girl and I top 500 and we do just fine (control comes from proper use of throttle, brake and steering NOT BALANCE) If I had to balance a 840 lbs motorcycle I'd be finished long ago!!!

[CrazyHorse]

Well I've read every post to this thread and I disagree with 90% of them My girl and I top 500 and we do just fine (control comes from proper use of throttle, brake and steering NOT BALANCE) If I had to balance a 840 lbs motorcycle I'd be finished long ago!!!


What your describing is balance. Its the balance between Throttle, Brake, Steering and I would add Clutch the things that keep a bike upright or balanced while its in motion. Were talking about weight and balance to much weight (especially aft) can lead to possible control loss. Theres a reason for max weights and such on vehicles it has to do with control loss or some sort failure of something on the vehicle (brakes, suspension, frame, etc) that could lead to injury or death.

[Tom]

I am 240 wife 190 or so..I got REAL good at handling the bike,THEN had her get on and teach her how to ride as a passenger and PRACTICED ALL maneuvers in an empty parking lot MANY times..Slow turns handlebars cocked all the way left turns,then right,Sudden stops ETC. Now with that said even when she is on the back I ride VERY conservative as she cannot afford to hit the ground AT ALL due to some medical problems. I also use the Avon tires which as far as I know have the highest rated maximum load of any tires that I personally know of. Use common sense and be careful. Tom

[Stratcat]

I had a Suzuki Volusia 800 before the Venture. The wife and I put about 12k miles on it, and we never had a problem with handling. I've had a couple of problems since getting the Venture with getting into tight spots, (ie. turnarounds, downhill grade) but they were my fault, not the passenger. I've been fortunate, (hate to use the work "lucky"), that I haven't dropped it or been down,,,, yet. You just have to constantly be aware of what's going on around you, either in a parking lot or on the interstate, solo or 2-up.

Like he said!

[Arcs&Sparks]

yep I forgot clutch but the weight limit is for liability (yamaha's) sure you have to do things a little different but with both of us up I don't feel a great deal of change. I won't do it if I were a new rider but I won't be riding a 840 lbs motorcycle if I was new either!!!

[mmmouse]

Told my wife if she gets any heavier I'm getting a trailer.:rotf:

[Mordalo]

I weigh about 350 and my wife is about 100 pounds lighter than I. I started of on a Honda 1100 city cruiser and eventually moved up to my current mount, the RSV. Aside from an Ultra-Classic and the BMW 1200RT we've not had many issues with riding two-up. I practiced in parking lots for about the first 10,000 miles before I ever tried riding with a passenger. The BMW was just plain hard to keep up even with just me on it, and the Ultra Classic is well... not made for fat people. I agree that the passenger should be lighter than the rider, and I agree that riding with more than the OEM-rated combined weight is a risk. For that matter, riding is a risk. Now that I think of it, every day that we live we're at risk of dieing. You have to decide whether or not it's worth it for you.

From a scientific perspective here are the risks that I can think of when exceeding the OEM-rating for weight capacity:

1. Braking - the brakes are designed to stop up-to the rated weight at a safe rate of deceleration. Any more weight than that and you're going to have a harder time stopping (which I do experience when I ride with myself and even more so with the wife)
2. Center-of-Gravity - this one can simply be compensated for, but you have to get used to it and build what sports coaches call "muscle memory." That is to say, you have to train you body to AUTOMATICALLY compensate for the change in Center of Gravity, or you will become intimately acquainted with the effect of gravity.
3. Stress on the Frame - this one is not as big of a concern unless you REALLY overload the bike (like try to bring home a load of gravel on the bike) because the OEM builds the frames to handle MUCH more weight than two fat people can produce.
4. Wear-and-Tear on Suspension - Primarilly shocks and tires. This just means you'll be buying more shocks and tires. Or you can do what I do and just trade the bike in for a newer one every 30k miles or so (kidding). By the way, on my Honda 1100 I averaged 8k miles on a single Dunlop 404 series front tire, but 14k miles on the same series rear tire. I have to assume part of that is because of the fat-guy in the captain's seat.

So my point is... yeah... forgot where I was going with that.

Nevermind.

[Go_JIM_SANDY]

My wife and I fall into the exact same weight category as you and your lady. I totally agree with your posting 100 pct. I just started reading the "overloaded" thread as we are planing a 1700 miler from Kansas City Mo back down to Dixie...ATL over Memorial Day week this year. I run tires at max air pressures and add 2 pounds to the Michelin Commander in the rear. As well as 3 pounds in each front fork and about 43 pounds in the aft shocks and we seem to do just fine whether on country back roads or the interstate doing a few MPHs over the speed limit. In the last 2 years we have had an '86 Kawasaki Voyager, a 2004 Honda VTX 1300 and now the 2000 MM edition and from the very first ride together on this bike on a country road we both agreed this was the bike for us. The RSV inspires more confidence every time we ride. Having legs like tree trunks does not hurt a bit at low a stop or when my bride saddles up. AMEN brother...Amen.:sign Rock On:

[bsreg]

Well I gotta go along side the big boy line of this.... I am a big boy, corn feed good stock wife thank goodness isn't. Together however we still make a few pounds for a bike... I have had the Suzuki Calvacade, Gold wing and VR. None ever seemed to have a problem with the weights nor the fact that often when younger would carry a few extra cases of adult beverages in the left side cooler... (held two cases of adult bev and two bags of ice) plus luggage. '

Now recently in key west rented a scooter after the scooter rental guy said "hey don't worry about the weight this thing will hold it with no problems you can even take your wife on the same bike" We still got two but hers went just as fast as mine stopped as well and handled the same as mine..> I was concerned I would crush the poor thing.

It is the riders that make a difference... If you were king kong and your rider decided to bend over and pick up a quarter off the ground while you were not expecting it there is a chance you would lose balance.

[Dusk]

I myself have made it a point to not ride the scoot at times. Just to avoid giving rides to some heavy people I know. I have a friend who's wife a very big woman. Over 250 easy. I don't want to hurt feelings, so I avoid the whole take me for a ride topic by caging it up for visits. Everybody has there own opinion about riding two up. But one thing is true especially for the 1st gens. They are top heavy all by themselves. It takes time to get use to handling them at low speeds and in the twisties. My sister weighs about as much as a fly, but taking off into a turn with her on the back can be a PITA. Add that with some uneven pavement and you got a possible lay down ahead without even trying.

So I do make it a point to not ride two up with people that are bigger than me. Not just weight, but also hight. Esp men. We are heavier on top. These are big bikes. Be it a 1st gen or 2nd. When they start to go over, they are gonna go.

[sbmin]

I agree 100%. Although my wife and I are large, we've been riding together for 34 years and she knows to sit still and don't try to help. That said, there is no way that I would take a passenger over 150 lbs other than my wife. Just don't do it.

[redknight13]

I agree that riding two up with a heavier passenger can be a problem but, sounds to me like maybe you forgot that making a stop / turn with a passenger usually requires a little more throttle and a little rear brake/ friction zone till you are though the turn and straightened out. I don't have any problems riding a heavier passenger and can do 18' circles on my 06 RSV with a passenger no matter what they weigh. I recommend the Ride Like a Pro video to anyone out there the stuff you learn on this video will boggle your mind.

[cmiles3]

We push the limit on the load rating, but it's mostly me. Putting a heavy load on the rear violates the stability control triangle; weight should be in the triangle formed by the front wheel, rear wheel, and rider center of gravity.

You can learn to compensate, but you still can drop it. Starting from a standing stop, the torque lifts the wheel, which decreases your steering. If you let off the throttle to increase steering, the bike will wallow, possibly dropping. If you add throttle, the wallow will go away, but the steering decreases, so you have to lean more. Practice this and you'll be amazed how much throttle and lean you can combine. One technique is a light application of rear brake with increased throttle, but this isn't practical with linked brakes.

I've managed to drop mine at low speeds, usually stopping, not starting. A little sand or gravel at a stop sign can cause some strange events; front wheel slipping out from under you if you're leaning or turning a little, foot slipping out from under you as you lean at a stop, putting your foot down into a pothole while stopped & can't reach the ground, turning on a gravel road (don't touch that brake!)

[KiteSquid]

I recommend the Ride Like a Pro video to anyone out there the stuff you learn on this video will boggle your mind.

AMEN!!!!!!

[kantornado]

Most in my family and guests like the buffet table.
Never had any problems and the times I feel over I was turning right and was by myself.
It was inexperience of my youth at the time.

I had hauled 2 people plus myself on my 83 once to Bill, WY about 10 miles I guess.

Guy and his wife broke down on their HD in the late 70s on there way to SD.
I just sat farther up on the gas tank with her in the middle and him on the pass seat.
Would not of wanted to go further then that as it was a little uncomfortable.

My stepson used to weight in at around 310 and I was 236 and never had any trouble on the 83. We logged about 10k miles together and never feel down or had a problem.

Fell over once outside of Sturgis at a gas station with a gravel parking lot with my daughter.
At the time she weighed about 90lbs. I was backing the bike and trailer up and there was a large hole in the ground and the 83 went right over but no one or bike was hurt.

Foot placement is always kinda harry with sand or antifreeze at the stop signs or lights.
Even gas stations by the pumps the cars and trucks leave dirt, grease, oil and sand and I have came close to dropping the bike on more then a few occasion's but have been lucky enough to of caught it.

After moving to Las Vegas last summer when I stopped at a light the asphalt had liquefied and made me a little more then concerned about stopping or turning.
It is something to keep in mind if your ever going to go through the desert.

The one thing I think that has helped me over the years is I used to ride a dirt bike on ice and in snow. That is how I gave my kids lessons on riding a bike and it was how I was taught. If I wanted to learn to ride I had to pick it up on the icy driveway and kick start it to ride it. I logged allot of winter miles and smiles and with all the clothes on I never got hurt. I guaranty you will learn balance and surefootedness. I still ride my 02 on ice and snow just to keep in practice.

Most experienced riders have a little talk with a perspective passenger and set the ground rules up front.

That's part of learning and gaining experience as well as confidence in your passenger and your abilities as a rider...........................................Ro n