VMAX Rear for RSV ordered

[Freebird]

Well folks, after riding in the mountains and even general highway speeds on the RSV, I am more than convinced that 5th gear is just too high on these bikes. I actually did an experiment on the way to Colorado. Bob Dakin was riding two up and pulling a trailer also. For a complete tank of gas, I kept my bike in 4th gear as opposed to him running in 5th. At the next fill up, I needed the exact same amount of gas that he did. I am convinced that the overdrive is just too high a gear and are getting us out of the optimum power band.

So, this morning I ordered a VMAX rear for my '99 RSV. I ordered it from John Furbur at http://www.rmsportmax.com After I get it, I will do a pictorial on the install, just a direct swap, and will report how it works out. The units that John sells are ready to go, complete with the holes and etc. for your speedo sensors.

I am excited about the change and have no doubt that it will be a great thing.

[Squeeze]

Hey Don,

congrats on your Decision. I'm confident that you're doing the right Thing to tune your Bike to your personal Satisfaction. :225:

I've done exactly the reverse Exchange on my Max after fitted 17 Inch Wheels. This Rims lifted my standard RpM's by about 500. With installing a Venture Rear End, these 500 RpM came back and lowered the Consumption a bit. Plus, because there is plenty of Power, the lower RpM-Level is making the Ride a bit smoother and a bit less louder than before.

Only Negative is the Loss of this tiny Bit of Startup-Power at Redlight, but i'm eating up nearly every Contender anyways ... :whistling::whistling::whistling:

[V7Goose]

Well folks, after riding in the mountains and even general highway speeds on the RSV, I am more than convinced that 5th gear is just too high on these bikes. I actually did an experiment on the way to Colorado. Bob Dakin was riding two up and pulling a trailer also. For a complete tank of gas, I kept my bike in 4th gear as opposed to him running in 5th. At the next fill up, I needed the exact same amount of gas that he did. I am convinced that the overdrive is just too high a gear and are getting us out of the optimum power band.

I am excited about the change and have no doubt that it will be a great thing.
Don, I did that same test (one tank without ever going into 5th) last year, but my results were VERY different! But I wasn't comparing it to someone dragging a trailer, just to my own every day gas mileage. I did most of th tank on the highway at 75-80, where I normally get about 37 MPG. Running without ever using 5th, I only got about 30 MPG for that tank. I think I posted this back when I did it.

Anyway, good luck with your choice - I look forward to reading about your results.
Goose

[Monsta]

Well I'm excited for you! There was V-Max rear gear on eBay a couple days ago that I almost snagged but not knowing how to go about the gear swap or making the hole for the speedo pickup I chickened out. Course him not willing to ship to Hawaii made my decision a bit easier. :)

Good luck! I look forward to the write up. Changing gearing is ALWAYS a better bang for your buck performance improvement not matter what vehicle you're driving. :happy34:

[Yammer Dan]

Memory of Charlie still burn a little????:rotfl::stirthepot:

[juggler]

OK, I admit I'm not a real gear head.

How does the VMax rear end differ from the RSV rear end? And, wouldn't changing the gearing in the transmission be a better option? If even possible.

:think::think::think::confused24::confused24::conf used24:

[pegscraper]

The Venture has a 10/33 gear ratio and the V Max has a 9/33 ratio. The V Max gearing lets the engine run a little faster for a given road speed. Gear ratios can be played with in the transmission or the rear end with the same ultimate result. But changing the rear gear is MUCH easier than changing the transmission gearing. Besides, the only other transmission ratios available would be those from a 1st gen, where 1st gear is about the same, but high gear is quite a bit lower, and then you'd buy yourself into a 2nd gear slipping problem besides. (Incidentally, lower gear ratios in the transmission is the only reason that 1st gens are any faster at all than the 2nds, if they actually are, which I don't believe anyway.)

Don, you won't be sorry you did it. The OD on these bikes, and most new vehicles, is way too tall. As you found out, running an OD does not always mean that gas mileage will go up. Usually all it means is that performance goes down as the engine is running too slow and lugs over any slight upgrade.

[Spud]

The thing about changing the read end is that it affects ALL of the gears in the transmission not just the overdrive.

I've often thought that our RSV is too low in all gears and I'd be very interested in this. I'd like the engine to rev higher in all gears. Easier take off, easier around town and I don't think the fuel economy will be effected all that much.

[juggler]

Ok, so the end result here is the engine RPM's will be higher in each gear before you need to shift? From what I know about these V-4's is that they like higher RPM's.

Sounds like a good idea. It will be interesting to see if you feel more power. It would be real nice if you could bench mark your performance numbers on a dyno before you change out the rear end and then check your performance increase afterwards.

[Freebird]

Sorry...I'm sure I won't be doing a Dyno but I will check RPMs at various speeds to compare the before and after. I have no doubt at all that this is going to be a major improvement over the stock setup.

[Monsta]

You can't dyno to see HP improvements as there won't be any. A 3.67:1 V-Max rear is just a bit deeper than the RSV's 3.30:1 rear. The 11% difference should manifest a nice "butt-dyno" improvement. :D

Performance comparisons in tests such as 0-60, 30-50 etc. etc. would be a better indicator. :)

[Phaedrus]

You don't need a dyno, just a buddy with a stopwatch and a road with a mile marker. Check your times in the quarter mile before and after the change, as well as your time for a 30 to 60 roll on in fourth gear, and 50 to 80 roll on in top gear. Old school man. :080402gudl_prv:

[flb_78]

The dyno runs will most likely show a LOSS of horsepower but a gain in TORQUE, which is really what these engines need, more TORQUE!:detective:

[Monsta]

A dyno won't reveal ANY changes. A dynomometer measures engine torque. New gearing doesn't affect torque output. It will, however, change where the torque output is on a "road speed" scale.

[Squeeze]

A dyno won't reveal ANY changes. A dynomometer measures engine torque. New gearing doesn't affect torque output. It will, however, change where the torque output is on a "road speed" scale.

That's it ...

When changing the final Drive Ratio, the actual Loss or Gain is at Topspeed. The 2Gen will have a lower Topspeed in 5th, my Max gained Topspeed.

Don, you can calculate the Speed in Gears, by using this small Proggie, http://www.schmidt-sven.de/page/geardata.zip

Just enter all the Data of your 2Gen, provided by the Manual, don't forget, there is also a Ratio in the middle Drive Gears, 21/27 on the 1Gen and Maxxes, and precompute them in the primary Ratio, then you can enter the actual Gear-Ratio,10/33 or 9/33, in the secondary and directly compare the Output Sheets by convert the .bmp Output-File in gif, add Transparency and lay them over each other in Photoshop or a similiar Program.

Short Translation of the Parameters you need to enter:
Felgendurchmesser - Rim-Diameter
Reifenbreite - Tire width in mm
Querschnitt - the Tire-Width/Height Ratio
Schlupf - Tire Slipage vs Ground 3 Percent is standard for Motorcycles, when you go faster than 260 km/h, you need to increase that Value to at least 4.5 Percent
Reifenumfang - Tire-Circumference
Ritzel - front Gear of the secondary Gear Ratio here it's 9 or 10
Kettenrad - rear Gear of the sondary Gear Ratio, thats 33
Primär - here's to enter the computed Value from primary Reduction and middle drive Gears
Gänge - here is to enter the Ratios of each Trans-Gear first to 6th Gear, we dont need the 6th, so shut that off in the last Column
bottom left can a Pointer be set an a specific Gear and RpM
Berechnen - press to compute the Data ...

Sorry there is no english Version, it's all in german and with metric values ...

[JGorom]

That's it...When changing the final Drive Ratio, the actual Loss or Gain is at Topspeed. The 2Gen will have a lower Topspeed in 5th, my Max gained Topspeed.

The question I have is this...since overdrive on the Venture appears to be set too high...i.e., you have to reach a high speed to effectively use 5th (overdrive) without lugging the engine...will this change to VMax gearing...reduce the speed you have to be at in order to effectively and efficiently move into 5th gear (overdrive) without lugging your engine. Any takers here?

I could give up some top end speed as long as I am not lugging the engine by being in 5th (overdrive) at say 60 to 65 mph.

[Squeeze]

The question I have is this...since overdrive on the Venture appears to be set too high...i.e., you have to reach a high speed to effectively use 5th (overdrive) without lugging the engine...will this change to VMax gearing...reduce the speed you have to be at in order to effectively and efficiently move into 5th gear (overdrive) without lugging your engine. Any takers here?

..

I'm not 100 Percent sure about my Understanding of your Question, but ...

i'd say yeah, that's what's happening.

If you traveled at 60 mph at, maybe 2800 RpM, after the exchange, the RpM at 60 raises to 3300. Please don't keep my for the Value's at all, i don't know the Facts of the 2Gen.

On the Max the Drop at a given Speed in 5th Gear is actually 500 RpM. The Exchange on a 1Gen would rise the RpM for the same 500 RpM.

[Freebird]

That is exactly right and is why I am doing this. At present time, I'm running about 3100 RPM at 70 MPH in 5th gear. NOTE: This is actual speed as I have the Speedohealer installed and calibrated. Your indicated speeds will be about 7 1/2% higher. The VMAX rear should put me at about 3600 RPM at the same speed in 5th gear. That is a MUCH better RPM range for staying in the power band of these bikes. On the way to Fort Collins, there was a first gen riding with us and he was running 4000 RPM in 5th gear. I ran one entire tank of gas in 4th gear at 70 MPH and my RPMs were exactly 4000, same as the first gen running in 5th gear. I don't know if 4000 in 5th is normal for a first gen or not. He may be running a VMAX rear also, I doubt it though.

At any rate, the 4000 RPM in 4th did very well but I think that 3600 will be perfect.

Coming home, I've been running 80 MPH most of the time. Riding one up and pulling the trailer. Fighting a heavy headwind, I've found myself at full throttle a number if times while climbing small but long hills and have actually had to downshift quiet a few times to maintain speed. I am confident that the change to the VMAX rear will be a fantastic improvement for our bikes. I am also confident that in the same riding conditions, fuel mileage will actually improve. When you are lugging the engine in these situations and those carbs are wide open, you are really sucking the gas.

[BuddyRich]

Really interested in this when you get it done. 5th is kinda usless for getupandgo....

[juggler]

Hmmm... keep this discussion going. I'm reading, taking notes and learning new stuff. That's why I like this place.

I sure wouldn't mind losing a few miles per hour off the top speed. I've never been to top speed and I don't ever plan to get there. I do however like to travel at the legal speed and most of the time I'm running right at the bottom range for 5th gear and feeling little power if I try to accelerate until the RPM's reach a certain point.

[Yammer Dan]

EASY FIX

Buy a 1st Gen


:rasberry::stirthepot:

[awsmsrv]

Which 1 are you going with? I went to their website & there is the MAX-RS listed under Royal Star & MAX-Venture listed under Venture. Both descriptions are exactly the same. Are they, in fact, the same? This interests me a lot, too. Thanks. PS - Welcome home.

[Freebird]

I'm not sure. I emailed and talked to him on the telephone so really not sure which one it would have been on the site. He is shipping mine on Monday so I should get it installed next weekend and take it for a trial run. :)

[Ruffy]

Good grief.......now I need another 300.00 bucks for another upgrade!!! It never ends.....:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf::confused24::conf used24::confused24::confused24:

[PITBULL]

The Venture has a 10/33 gear ratio and the V Max has a 9/33 ratio. The V Max gearing lets the engine run a little faster for a given road speed. Gear ratios can be played with in the transmission or the rear end with the same ultimate result. But changing the rear gear is MUCH easier than changing the transmission gearing. Besides, the only other transmission ratios available would be those from a 1st gen, where 1st gear is about the same, but high gear is quite a bit lower, and then you'd buy yourself into a 2nd gear slipping problem besides. (Incidentally, lower gear ratios in the transmission is the only reason that 1st gens are any faster at all than the 2nds, if they actually are, which I don't believe anyway.)

Don, you won't be sorry you did it. The OD on these bikes, and most new vehicles, is way too tall. As you found out, running an OD does not always mean that gas mileage will go up. Usually all it means is that performance goes down as the engine is running too slow and lugs over any slight upgrade.

You dont believe the 1st gens are faster than the 2nd gens? Well I have ridden both and I will tell you that my 1983 will run circles around a 2nd gen. As far as top speed, I didnt take the 2nd gen out and run it that hard being that it didnt belong to me BUT I did get on it a bit and I will tell you that there is NO WAY that a 2nd gen will keep up with the acceleration of my first gen. No way. Lets just say that the top speed of both bikes is 130mph...i picked that because I have had my bike in that range a few times....:whistling: ( dont tell the wife cuz she would absolutley freak) anyway the 1st gen. would hit that mark alot quicker. Whens the last time you saw a 2nd gen. pull the wheel in the first 2 gears???? BUT the 2nd gen in WAY more comfy. In all reality as long as your bike can approch the 100 mph mark and not be over worked...does it really matter? The first gen is a quicker bike and maybe more manuverable but the second gen would be my hands down choice to go cross country.

[rod]

I agree with Pitbull, and will add that I doubt you will lose the top speed at all may even get more. The reason is I have never been able to hit the rev limiter in 5th with stock 2 gen, you just run out of power. With lower gearing you may get more out of 5th gear. Let us know how it turns out. Rod

[Cougar]

For the past 3 months I have been riding in 4th Gear as well.
(lets say I haven't used 5th at all in that time)
No difference in fuel mileage for me. It also eliminates
the whine/chirp running at 3200 RPM and above. It sounds like
a great mod Don. I guess that will be my next project too!.
Take lots of pictures for me *lol*
Jeff

[Monsta]

EASY FIX

Buy a 1st Gen

Please refer to this thread. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7603&highlight=riff

:sign yeah that: :rasberry:

[timk]

Don, you my be able to sell your rear gears on one of the FJR sites. One guy is swapping one out, and there seems to be a lot of interest. Question: Is the speedometer on the RSV driven by the transmission, or front wheel?

[flb_78]

Don, you my be able to sell your rear gears on one of the FJR sites. One guy is swapping one out, and there seems to be a lot of interest. Question: Is the speedometer on the RSV driven by the transmission, or front wheel?

driven off the rear hub.

[Freebird]

Don, you my be able to sell your rear gears on one of the FJR sites. One guy is swapping one out, and there seems to be a lot of interest. Question: Is the speedometer on the RSV driven by the transmission, or front wheel?

The $300.00 is with exchange so I won't have any to sell. Good suggestion though if I were to have kept them.

[Eddie]

Thanks Don I thought I was done, whats next a blue bottle and a button.

[Freebird]

Oh Eddie Eddie Eddie...we are NEVER done. :) Actually, I am also adding a rear brake modification that will be offered here by Rick Butler. I'll get it installed next weekend and check it out. The rear brakes on these bikes is just way too sensitive. Rick started out looking at a way to link the front and rear brakes as they were on the first gen but came up with another solution that he says works GREAT. I've known Rick for a long time and can tell you, if he says it works great, it works great. It consists of a new SS line and a modulator valve that will give good controlled stops without locking up the rear in a panic situation. Looks to be an easy install and I thought about doing it today but am just not in the mood.

[Squidley]

So your just getting the gears for $300 with old gear exchange Don? I have an additional rear pig that I purchased for the swap I have planned for mine. Looks like I'll have to check this site out and see about getting some shipped here :)

[Freebird]

John does all the work. You can send him your rear end and he will install the new gears, any new seals, gaskets, etc. that you need. Adjust the backlash and etc. and get it all set up properly and then send it back to you. That is $300.00. If you want to minimize your downtime, you can do what I did and send him a $300.00 core deposit also. That means that your total is $600.00. He will send you a new rear end ready to go and when he receives yours back, he will credit you the $300.00 core charge. If you want to keep your rear end along with the new one, it is $600.00.

I will send him my rear end as I never plan to go back to stock. That's how confident I am with this change. To me, it's a good deal.

[Squidley]

Sounds like I will send them my rearend and have them do the swap. Less chance that I will miss something up....Gotta do some overtime :)

[Condor]

On the way to Fort Collins, there was a first gen riding with us and he was running 4000 RPM in 5th gear. I ran one entire tank of gas in 4th gear at 70 MPH and my RPMs were exactly 4000, same as the first gen running in 5th gear. I don't know if 4000 in 5th is normal for a first gen or not. He may be running a VMAX rear also, I doubt it though..

Don, 4000 at 70-72mpg in fifth gear is what I ran with my '83 going to Ft Collins, so I don't think your 1stGen member would have had a V-Max rear end. In our group of 6 mine was the only 1stGen. When we'd stop for fuel we all took just about the same amount. Within a tenth of a gallon.... 3.8..3.9gal at around 153-5 miles, so it worked out to a little less than 40mpg.... I might add that my 'cruise controll' is actually a throttle lock... My mpg started getting better once I made it to FC. For the same 150+ mi., taking 3.3 to 3.7., which meant I started getting up around 45mpg in the canyon twisties in 3rd and 4th.... Go figure.... Maybe a V-Max rear end might help the 1stGens as well???

[Redneck]

Heck when I get to 70 I'm looking for an other gear I just don't like to hear the engine running that fast when I'm cruising. I guess that comes from being around diesel engines all my life. I am interested to hear how this turns out I'm sure it will make the bike more responsive but I think the engine screaming at hwy speed would drive me crazy.

[Monsta]

Screaming?

At 70 a stock bike turns 2383 (mathematically calculated, actual RPM may vary slightly).

With the V-max rear you'll turn 2650rpm. A difference of 267rpm. For comparison sake, the RPM drop from 4th to 5th @ 70mph is around 527rpm. So you can see that it certainly won't be screaming. ;)

[Redneck]

Screaming?

At 70 a stock bike turns 2383 (mathematically calculated, actual RPM may vary slightly).

With the V-max rear you'll turn 2650rpm. A difference of 267rpm. For comparison sake, the RPM drop from 4th to 5th @ 70mph is around 527rpm. So you can see that it certainly won't be screaming. ;)You need to check your math at 70 a stock second gen is turning 3200 in 5th about 4000 in 4th. Thats screaming. When cruising down the hy I like an engine turning slow smooth and quiet.

[rmsvmax]

[quote=juggler;113629]Ok, so the end result here is the engine RPM's will be higher in each gear before you need to shift? From what I know about these V-4's is that they like higher RPM's.

There is a 'sweet spot' that they like to run in, and running below that, or 'lugging' the motor, is not good in any way, power loss being 1st and foremost...

Sounds like a good idea. It will be interesting to see if you feel more power. It would be real nice if you could bench mark your performance numbers on a dyno before you change out the rear end and then check your performance increase afterwards.

This has nothing to do with dyno #s;
this has everything to do with being in the proper RPM range when it's time to pull, pass, or climb...

John
RMSportMax.com
1-610-509-VMAX(8629)

[rmsvmax]

(quote)

I sure wouldn't mind losing a few miles per hour off the top speed. I've never been to top speed and I don't ever plan to get there. I do however like to travel at the legal speed and most of the time I'm running right at the bottom range for 5th gear and feeling little power if I try to accelerate until the RPM's reach a certain point.[/quote]

Usually the best indicator of whether a bike, any bike, is geared correctly, is whether or not top speed is achieved in high gear, or something less...Most riders, those with enough balls, or maybe less sense, or something in between,

(I INCLUDE MYSELF in that group, but LOVE IT nonetheless...LOL)

to test top speeds on Ventures, report that top speed is achieved in 4th, rather than 5th...

You're right, it's not about top speed, but it IS about being where U should be in terms of cruising RPM, and being in the 'sweet spot' for maximum power in pulling/passing/climbing situations.

JVM
RMSportMax.com
1-610-509-VMAX(8629)

[Monsta]

You need to check your math at 70 a stock second gen is turning 3200 in 5th about 4000 in 4th.

Hmmm...I maybe I do. :eek: I may have calculated something wrong in the reduction ratio. :bang head:

3200RPM in 5th sounds awfully high though. Do you have a tach on yours?

[Freebird]

I do have a tach on my bike. 3200 RPM at 70 MPH in 5th gear is just about dead on. That is true 70 MPH with Speedohealer. In 4th gear, it is almost dead on at 4000 RPM.

[pegscraper]

For anyone who has access to a mill, this gear ratio swap can be done for peanuts. The basic casting for the V Max rear gear is the same as ours, but with different features machined out. The V Max rear does not have the speedo sensor hole, while it does have a hole for a rear shock mount. I got a rear gear unit from a V Max on ebay and milled the spot out for the speedo sensor to match my stock one. I pulled the shock bolt out and tossed it. There is still a hole there, but with side bags it's not seen anyway. Then I sold my stock one for about $5 less than what I gave for the V Max one. The hitch is that not many have access to or know how to operate a mill.

I'd never go back to the stock rear gear ratio. Better acceleration, it lets the engine run closer to its powerband, and I didn't see any gas mileage drop with this gear ratio either. The engine is running faster, but it's also running more efficiently because it's nearer to its powerband. Most every new vehicle has an OD that is too tall, and it does not save gas.

[Stoutman]

Oh Eddie Eddie Eddie...we are NEVER done. :) Actually, I am also adding a rear brake modification that will be offered here by Rick Butler. I'll get it installed next weekend and check it out. The rear brakes on these bikes is just way too sensitive. Rick started out looking at a way to link the front and rear brakes as they were on the first gen but came up with another solution that he says works GREAT. I've known Rick for a long time and can tell you, if he says it works great, it works great. It consists of a new SS line and a modulator valve that will give good controlled stops without locking up the rear in a panic situation. Looks to be an easy install and I thought about doing it today but am just not in the mood.

Just wondering if you did this mod and how you like it. I've been considering this since Rick wrote this up. I've locked up the rear brake on this bike on every panic stop I've made. Luckily it has always been at a low enough speed I could just ride it out until I stopped. I would like to know your opinion of this mod.

[Freebird]

I will be doing it this weekend. I only had one day home after getting home from Fort Collins and then leaving for a business trip. I plan to install and try it out over the weekend though and will report my results. I can tell you though, if Rick said it works, I have no doubts.

[Freebird]

Well, I am home again and the VMAX rear was here waiting on me. I will get it installed tomorrow probably. I'm so anxious to get it done that I almost did it tonight but I'm beat and also, really want to get a new rear tire mounted tomorrow while I have it apart. As bad as I hate it, I guess I'm going to mount a Bridgestone to get me through the rest of this summer. Jerry M gave me the rear wheel and tire off his RSTD that he had left after his trike conversion. The Bridgestone tire only has about 2,000 miles on it so I figure I will just use it for the rest of the summer and then put on new front and rear tires next spring.

The problem is, the wheel that he gave me is black and my Venture has the gray wheels. I have another new wheel that I bought off Ebay minus tire and brake rotor. So, I will remove the rotor off the one he gave me and put it and the tire off the other wheel that I bought. I will then sell his "like new" wheel on Ebay and send him the money. :)

[Squidley]

Looking forward to hear how the new rearend "feels" Keep us updated :happy34:

[Eddie]

hurry up already, I need to know if I have to do this before Vogel. Geez

[Freebird]

Done already. :) I was up at 6:30 this morning and got right on it. Took me about an hour to do the swap and that included pulling the saddlebags, mufflers, rear wheel, pulling the rear end, greasing the drive shaft, etc. All that I need to do now is put the rear wheel, mufflers, bags back on but I can't do that until the local shop opens here and I get the new tire put on. Also going to put on some new rear brake pads while I have it down. Should be able to get it out for a test ride this afternoon and report the results.

[gibvel]

Done already. :) I was up at 6:30 this morning and got right on it. Took me about an hour to do the swap and that included pulling the saddlebags, mufflers, rear wheel, pulling the rear end, greasing the drive shaft, etc. All that I need to do now is put the rear wheel, mufflers, bags back on but I can't do that until the local shop opens here and I get the new tire put on. Also going to put on some new rear brake pads while I have it down. Should be able to get it out for a test ride this afternoon and report the results.

Don, you da man!! :thumbsup2:

[Freebird]

OK....here is my initial report on the VMAX rear end. It has rained here off and on all day today so I didn't get to ride as much as I wanted to but did manage to get about 30 miles in just to do some preliminary tests.

First of all I will say that in my opinion, this is the gearing that Yamaha should have put in these bikes. I know that the RSV was built as more of a cruiser but I think they went too far with the high gearing, especially in 5th gear. I realize that these are not sport bikes but they are not high torque VTwins either. These V4s like to rev and the need to get up some RPMs before they really find their power bands. It's almost like Yamaha tried to get that high torque, low RPM loping out of these bikes and these engines just aren't made for that.

With the original rear end, I was running 4,000 RPM in 4th gear and about 3100 or so in 5th gear both of these at 70 MPH. With the VMAX rear, the RPMs are running almost exactly 500 higher at the same speed. About 4500 RPM in 4th at 70 MPH and about 3600 RPM in 5th at 70 MPH. Of course 1-3 run higher at any given speed also so you will be shifting out of the lower gears a bit quicker.

I find the performance to be significantly increased with the VMAX rear. From strictly a seat of the pants feeling, it really jumps when you take off and hammer it through the gears. In more casual riding, it feels much better now when you roll on the throttle in 5th gear. Before the swap, anything below 60 MPH you just pretty much had to downshift to 4th if you wanted to accelerate. With the VMAX rear, it's not a rocket but you have decent acceleration when you roll on from 60 MPH and it's not even bad from 50 MPH.

While the 4000 RPM in 4th at 70 MPH was equivalent to the first gen in 5th gear, it still seemed just a bit much .... probably because we are so used to the engine loping along at 3000 or so RPM in 5th. The 3600 RPM in 5th with the new rear end feels really good though. Doesn't feel like it is wrapped too tight and yet you still have good acceleration when you roll on the throttle.

This is an easy modification. If you have a lift, you can do it. If you have ever pulled your rear end to grease the drive shaft, splines, etc., you have done it already. Same thing except you put this rear end back instead of the one that you remove.

So...that's about all I can tell you for now. At this point, I am VERY happy with the results and wish I had done this 8 years ago. I am anxious to put some freeway or good state route miles on it to see what the gas mileage does but to be honest, based upon my earlier tests running in 4th gear, I really expect this to have no negative affect on mileage and even halfway expect to see an increase. I am also anxious to try it with my loaded trailer behind me. I KNOW this is going to be MUCH better in that case.

[BOO]

Don,

Very interesting, I'm probably not going to do the conversion but what you have said is about what I expected also.

It's interesting that the 1st gen runs so high of an RPM for a given speed but it really doesn't seem like it when you are riding. I have a feeling the sound of the exhaust has a lot to do with that.

As you know I run the HD pipes and after you had posted you were going to do this I did some highway riding in 4th gear and I got to tell you I thought the bike was going to blow up. Again a lot of it is the pipes.

As far as the gas mileage, I bet you don't lose much riding 1 up and I would think the mileage might even be better 2 up and pulling the trailer.
The added torque should help a bunch 2 up and pulling the trailer.

I had a pickup several years ago with a manual overdrive and I drove it 400 miles one direction in overdrive and then drove it back in 4th gear, no difference in gas mileage.

Keep us posted.

Jerry

[SaltyDawg]

I don't know. I would think the gas mileage would go down. If you are turning an average of 500 more RPM I would think it would use more gas to run there. Just my thoughts.

[flb_78]

I don't know. I would think the gas mileage would go down. If you are turning an average of 500 more RPM I would think it would use more gas to run there. Just my thoughts.


not necessarily, hypothetically, if youre running in 5th at 3100 rpm at 70 mph, you're throttle position would be 50%, but now with the higher rpm's, you're utilizing more of the horsepower curve and only using 30% throttle....

now that I read that, it doesn't make sense, but in my head I know what I meant.

[Freebird]

That is exactly right....not sure about the percentages but the idea is correct. Coming back from Fort Collins, there were numerous times when I was trying to run in 5th gear but bucking a strong headwind along with pulling a fairly heavy trailer, I would sometimes find that my throttle was wide open when pulling decent inclines and etc. At other times, even not pulling a trailer or bucking headwinds, it seems that you are really lugging the engine and then when you try to accelerate, you are again pretty much at full throttle and acceleration is just very slow. In those cases, you are really better off downshifting into 4th gear but often we don't. The 500 RPM just seems to put you in a much better range of the power band. I will confirm the fuel mileage when I can and I may be wrong but based on my test where I ran through a full tank of gas in 4th gear at 4,000 RPM and got the same fuel mileage as Bob Dakin running normally, mostly in 5th, I can't see that the mileage is going to suffer. That test WAS done riding two up and pulling a trailer though.

[Squidley]

I dont think it's going to dent the fuel economy at all, the engine will be in a better RPM for the powerband and it's "sweet spot" I have been wanting to do this for about a year now and I just never got to it. Looks like I'll be sending that spare G2 rearend I bought for it in and have it done :happy34:

[Eddie]

Thanks for the report Don this really caught my interest. Im wondering how it feels coming out of the hole. Ive had a bunch of bikes in my life and never had a bike so slow out of the hole as the RSV. I would love to have the power to smoke the rear wheel if I wanted .:)

[Freebird]

Eddie,
I thought about and should have done some timed runs before and after the swap but due to weather and wanting to get it done, I just didn't get around to it. I can tell you for sure that it is quicker out of the hole and through all the gears. Smoking the tire? I don't know about that. :)

Also, there have been a number of posts about what this will do to the fuel economy. As I've said, I really expect it to have very little affect and I really expect to see an improvement riding two up and pulling the trailer. BUT...if I'm wrong about that...oh well. I am so happy with this change that even if I were to lose 3 or 4 MPG, it will be worth it to me. I understand that fuel economy is important, especially with the price of gas now. Heck...I made the mistake of rolling into Aspen, CO on reserve and paid $4.10 a gallon in Aspen. :( To me though, the improvement in the performance more than makes up for a couple of MPG of fuel economy.

[Redneck]

I wouldn't expect a major difference in fuel mileage under normal riding and a possible improvement with heavy loads. The tall overdrives in newer vehicles is not just an economy issue. I'm sure most have noticed that newer engines last 3 or 4 times more miles than older engines did. There are several reasons for that one is that they run much slower every time the piston passes through the cylinder it causes wear so more passes mean more wear per mile. There is also the greater air flow issue even with the best air filters you get debris into the engine more air at higher rpm more debris and more wear. These engines are so long lived I don't think with good service you will wear one out until the bike has very high mileage.

[Eddie]

Don one more thing. Do they come in CHROME ?

[Freebird]

LOL...should have KNOWN you would ask that. :) I haven't seen chrome on their site. I did see one a while back on Ebay that had been polished and it looked very much like chrome.

[awsmsrv]

Don, did you ever find out which 1 you got? The MAX-RS listed under Royal Star or the MAX-Venture listed under Venture?

[concours]

LOL, But the wicked tall gears is a BIG part of the reason i chose the RS... sick and tired of tractor gears at cruising speeds.... 80-85 is just the cat's a$$ with these gears... just downshift when riding slower or using it to tow your Airstream....

[rsstar]

Ditto on what Concours said, but each to his own. I am anxious to hear Don's test results.

I know this isn't a good comparison but I'll mention it anyway. While riding with my son recently I asked what his rpms was at our cruising speed of about 80 indicated. I THINK he said somewhere around 2800rpms. This is on a new HD Streetglide. My rpms was close to 3800. When I'm cruising on the interstate on cruise control I kind of wish my 5th was a little taller. But then even at slower speeds I have a bad habit of being in too high a gear. Learned that on the same ride with son up around Blairsville and Deals Gap. When we did Cherhola Parkway I forced myself to go at least a gear down and found it MUCH easier to do the curves, faster. Am still learning to ride even though I've been riding for over 39 years. Wish I could ride as good as my son. I wish the RSV handled as good as the Streetglide appears to.

[JGorom]

Don...just call me Mr. Impatience (and I am sure I am not the only one) but I'm really interested in hearing more about the results of your gear swap out. MPG, sound and handling differences, any regrets...maybe you could give us your second opinion.

Later...

[Cougar]

Gunna do my swap this winter when I am not riding. Yep! :cool10:
It is just what my bike needs!

[Freebird]

Don...just call me Mr. Impatience (and I am sure I am not the only one) but I'm really interested in hearing more about the results of your gear swap out. MPG, sound and handling differences, any regrets...maybe you could give us your second opinion.

Later...

Sorry...don't mean to leave anybody hanging on this or the brake modification but I was in Lexington, KY all last week and now I'm in Rochester, NY. I got home over the weekend but it rained the entire time. The Vogel trip may be the first chance I have for a real test.

[BOO]

Hey Don, we will be coming right past Rochester, NY. tomorrow, stand on the overpass and wave to us as we go by.

We are in Austinburg Ohio tonight. See you at Vogel next week.

Jerry

[Freebird]

I'll be there waving and am really looking forward to Vogel.

[JGorom]

Sorry...don't mean to leave anybody hanging on this or the brake modification but I was in Lexington, KY all last week and now I'm in Rochester, NY.

Robert (Bongobobby) and myself are close to Rochester, I'm about 30-40 minutes from downtown. Wish I would have know you were coming. How long are you going to be in Rochester?

[Midrsv]

Sorry...don't mean to leave anybody hanging on this or the brake modification but I was in Lexington, KY all last week and now I'm in Rochester, NY. I got home over the weekend but it rained the entire time. The Vogel trip may be the first chance I have for a real test.

You need to post your schedule. Had I known you were in Lexington last week I would have bought you dinner one night.

Dennis

[Freebird]

I will try to post from now on where I'll be. I plan to be in Rochester until Thursday morning. I know that next week I'll be in the Dayton, OH area.

[CrazyHorse]

LOL, But the wicked tall gears is a BIG part of the reason i chose the RS... sick and tired of tractor gears at cruising speeds.... 80-85 is just the cat's a$$ with these gears... just downshift when riding slower or using it to tow your Airstream....

This winter I'm putting in 2nd Gen gear set and a Vmax rear on my 1st Gen already have both aquired. I cruise at 80 alot also dont like the high rpms while cruising. I dont mind them if I'm screwing around though.

[Rick Butler]

Jim,

I just noticed your post. On your 90 Venture, you will not like the V-Max rear end. With it being a lower geared ring it will really have you at a higher rpm if you like to run 80mph. You will loose about 500 rpm and you will feel like you are running in 4th gear with the Venture final drive. The reason I know is that I ran one one my 91 when I hooked up my sidecar, where it helped alot with lower speed manuevers. Then when I took the sidecar off, I'd slip the Venture final drive back in.

The reason it's a good idea on the RS Ventures is because the tranny on these bikes has been geared a bit taller in every gear than your 1st gen. With this final drive change, it puts their gearing just about where it was with the 1st gen Ventures. I don't think I would be a 1st gen wanting to jump a 2nd gen with this change, it might surprise you.

Rick

[Rick Butler]

Don,

I've got a question on this gear swap that Furbur does. Does he use both a new ring gear and pinion? The reason I ask is that if you look at the Yamaha parts fiche, you will not see a part number on either of these 2 gears. There are part numbers on every other piece but not these. So where is he getting his gears?

Curious minds need to know,

Rick

[Freebird]

I honestly can't say. I never asked. I will try to find out. Leaving tomorrow for the Dragon Rally at Vogel so it will be my first true test of this setup. I'm looking forward to it.

[slipstreamer]

Besides, the only other transmission ratios available would be those from a 1st gen, where 1st gear is about the same, but high gear is quite a bit lower, and then you'd buy yourself into a 2nd gear slipping problem besides.

That is only true if you use an 83 -84 transmission. I believe that the second gear problem was resolved with the 85 Venture. So, if the first gen transmission would be a better fix, and I am no gear-head, then, I would say go for it but using an 86 - 93 transmission. The thing I love about the first gens is that you can lug them all day long and don't need to be constantly down shifting to keep the rpms up as you do in the second gens. That is what I found both annoying and disappointing about the second gen when I demo-rode them a few years back.

[Condor]

I gotta question. Are the 2ndGen and 1stGen finals the same, or does the 2nd have a few more teeth? The reason I'm asking is that if it is taller then putting a 2nd into a 1stGen might be something to think about. I always feel like shifting into 6th when running at highway speeds.

[Rick Butler]

No Condor,

The final drives are both the same. The only difference is in the transmission ratios with the 2nd gen being taller in all gears.

Rick

[Condor]

No Condor,

The final drives are both the same. The only difference is in the transmission ratios with the 2nd gen being taller in all gears.

Rick

DANG!!!

[Squeeze]

I gotta question. Are the 2ndGen and 1stGen finals the same, or does the 2nd have a few more teeth? The reason I'm asking is that if it is taller then putting a 2nd into a 1stGen might be something to think about. I always feel like shifting into 6th when running at highway speeds.

Hi,

final Drive Ratio is all the same on all the Ventures, from '83 to 2007. It's 9/33 Ratio. Vmax, FJR has a 10/33 Ratio. There are different Casing, depending on Shock Bolt or not and Speedo-mounting Hole or not.

Only Thing what you could do, is looking for a rear tire, which has a bigger Circumference. This would reduce the RpM on a given Speed. I don't know if there is any fitting Tire, which would fit to the Wheel also.

On the Vmax, we allways look for more performant and radial Tires, these are only 17" Rims, these Tires, which one can use are mostly 180/55R17 or 190/50R17 ahve a smaller Circumference than the Stock Tire 150/90R15. So the RpM rises on a given Speed. This can be cured with a Venture final Drive.

My Expirences are, keep your 1Gen Design and do not change anything.

If i had the Time and Parts, i would fit a complete '93 1Gen Tranny in my Vmax Engine. Or a least the 5th gear of 2Gen and go back to Vmax final Drive. The 1Gen's Tranny is imho the best Option because the Gears are spreaded at best. The Vmax Tranny is short on 1st to 3rd Gear, 4th is ok and 5th is a bit too short either.

On my '93 Venture, i would give a Vmax rear Drive a try, because i allways ride with my Lady on the Backseat, not so fast and way more cruising Style than when riding alone.

[kantornado]

Well I read almost all the 82 posts here and I too am very interested in this modification.
With the trailer and 2 up the weight was enough to keep me down shifting at anything under 65 mph.
If I am pulling hills up and down I found myself shifting constantly and would wind up in 3rd or even 2nd.
So I am looking foreword to your assessment FREEBIRD after your DRAGON trip.............................................. .....Ron

[pegscraper]

Where does he get the gears? He swaps good used ones from a V Max into the Venture housing, and vice versa. The V Max is geared so low in the transmission (virtually the same as the 1st gen Ventures) that they like to install the 2nd gen Venture rear gears to lower their rpms a bit.

[Rick Butler]

Ok Squeeze and Pegscraper,

If I understand you correctly, the V-Max riders are swaping out their final drives for the 1st gen (or 2nd gen) Venture final drives (or chain drive conversions) of which Furbur is picking up for conversions for the 2nd gen RS Ventures? Sounds like a balance of trade situation.

Now even though I had noticed that the FJR1300 looked like it was using the Venture final drive, is it geared the same as the Venture or the V-Max?

Curious minds need to know,

Rick

[Squeeze]

Ok Squeeze and Pegscraper,

If I understand you correctly, the V-Max riders are swaping out their final drives for the 1st gen (or 2nd gen) Venture final drives (or chain drive conversions) of which Furbur is picking up for conversions for the 2nd gen RS Ventures? Sounds like a balance of trade situation.

Now even though I had noticed that the FJR1300 looked like it was using the Venture final drive, is it geared the same as the Venture or the V-Max?

Curious minds need to know,

Rick

Hi Rick,

the Gears from the FJR are the same as Vmax, Ratio 10/33. On a FJR Casing, there is no Hole for the lower Shockbolt(Vmax has Stereo Shocks) and no Hole for the Speedo Pickup(2Gen Venture). The FJR has the Speedo Pickup mounted somewhere on the Outlet of the Transmisson.

And yes, some Vmax Riders convert to Venture final Drives, because after changing the Wheels from Stock to 17 Inch Rims, the Revs go up by 500 RpM in 5th Gear. I personally ride the Venture Drive with FJR1300 Rims on my Max and finally, i do like the lower Revs in 5th Gear, but dislike the Loss of Accelaration in the other 4 Gears.

I don't know what John Furbur does to the final Drives. It seems to be obvious, but i never would say that until i'm sure of his Actions. But if so, there is some Work to do, one needs a 'special Tool' to unlock the Nut on the Pinion Gear and some new Bearings and/or new Oil Seal and so on. Not that big Earnings if you do it for a Living.

[pegscraper]

He does a lot more than just swap the rear gears. He carries a lot of other parts and caters mostly to the V Max crowd, but has a few things for Royal Stars too, as he needs our rear gears. Swapping those gears in the housings is not a do it yourself job. One has to know how to set the gear backlash right and have the tools to take them out. That's why he gets an arm and a leg for the job. That is, unless someone (like me) has a mill and can machine the V Max housing out to mount the speedo sensor. Then it can be done for peanuts. Likewise to make the Venture housing fit a V Max, all one would have to do is drill and tap the boss for the rear shock, and make a cap to seal off the speedo hole.

[juggler]

Just thinking here (and that is dangerous). If I put the Vmax rear end on my '99 second gen and then somehow swap out the trans for a first gen trans. Then put on HD Road King pipes. And maybe a possible cam swap for a VMax? And I already upgraded my clutch plates to the full VMax plates.

What the heck am I riding? Maybe Yamaha can learn from these mods and make a few changes for their stock production bikes.

What other parts can we swap out for performance?

[pegscraper]

What other parts can we swap out for performance?

This has been discussed at much length here in the past. One thing I don't know though, is whether the V Max carbs will fit in the 2nd gen Venture. I've tried to stuff a set into my Royal Star, and I don't know whether I can make them fit yet or not. It will take some heavy redesign work. But I haven't given up yet. But it's also my understanding that the 2nd gen Ventures have a bigger frame and more room under the tank. It might be easier to get a set in there.

[flb_78]

And I already upgraded my clutch plates to the full VMax plates.

Is there a thread on this, my clutch is getting tired after 70,000 miles.

[Redneck]

Well what is the verdict? What were the results after the trip.

[BigShell]

I've been giving this some thought and would like some opinions, please.

While I would like more response just twisting the throttle, I don't mind down shifting to get that response. I'm thinking overall fuel mileage.

80% of my riding is between 65 and 80 mph (indicated, not actual) with most toward the high end of that. For that, I would guess stock gears to be best.

On the other side, I have the wide Clearview shield and lower wind vents so I'm pushing more air. I also weigh as much 1-up as most of you do 2-up (closer to 400 than 300 lbs). At least my wife is small so we still ride 2-up ok. These would seem to benefit from the VMAX gears.

Which gears would you recommend?

[Freebird]

I wish I had a good answer for you. I had hoped to report back on my mileage after the trip to Vogel but I am..or was...having mileage issues with my bike for a while now. I have recently done some things that will hopefully correct it but haven't had the opportunity yet to find out.

Like you, I really didn't mind downshifting when I need to accelerate but what I hated was having to downshift at times just to maintain my current speed. Riding two up and pulling a trailer on the way to and from Colorado I found myself doing that exact thing, especially when bucking a headwind. I have to think that the VMAX rear will yield better gas mileage in that situation. It resulted in lugging the engine if I didn't downshift. I also found that my mileage was the same when running in 4th gear. The VMAX rear actually results in my running a little less RPM in 5th gear that I was running in 4th with the OEM rear so my thinking is that mileage should improve.

Unfortunately, I can't verify that at this time. At any rate, I love the VMAX rear enough that even if the mileage doesn't improve or even suffers slightly, I will be very happy with it.

[CrazyHorse]

I have a 1st gen and have been thinking bout switching the gear set to a 2nd gen set and vmax rear end (which I already have aquired both) my main goal is mileage I drive 100 miles total to work and back each day. Actual speed (GPS) of 75 mph (indicated 86 mph speedos off) @ 4100 rpm. I also would like a little better off the line response. I think this set up will give me what I'm looking for. I know this will bring my rpms down some but Im wondering if the higher speeds will bring to much wind resistance to really help with mpg. Anyone have any idea?

[Condor]

I have a 1st gen and have been thinking bout switching the gear set to a 2nd gen set and vmax rear end (which I already have aquired both) my main goal is mileage I drive 100 miles total to work and back each day. Actual speed (GPS) of 75 mph (indicated 86 mph speedos off) @ 4100 rpm. I also would like a little better off the line response. I think this set up will give me what I'm looking for. I know this will bring my rpms down some but Im wondering if the higher speeds will bring to much wind resistance to really help with mpg. Anyone have any idea?

You're going to wish you hadn't Jim. The V-max is already lower geared and your RPM's will go thru the roof and so will your gas milage. It's fine on a low rpm 2ndGen, but not on a 1stGen.....

Oooops, read the rest of your post about changing out the gears for 2ndGens. Might work, but sounds like an aweful lot of trouble....

[CrazyHorse]

Yea its alot of trouble totally a winter project so I'll have time to do it. Probably go through the motor checking it the specs. Sometimes I tinker to much for my own good. At least I like doing it though.